Cirrus steps up to the plate

Defensive from the start! And "hater" is so teenage girl. Apologies if you're a teenage girl :)


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asgcpa said:
For your Cirrus haters. We take training seriously. Cirrus stepped up to the plate on this one.

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Cool. What do you do for Cirrus? Are you responsible for the training vids?
 
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"what's my ideal fuel flow? is it ok to land on a grass runway? how often should I get my oil changed?" You gotta admit, this stuff is too easy to pick on :D

Also, I love the self-promulgated image of the "cirrus owner"...
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Nice sweater, Richard. Does your trophy wife dress you? Ever flown in TX? :D

Joking aside, I think they're doing a good thing for their customer base. The safety merits of their effort are legitimate. Credit where credit is due.
 
I'd be more impressed with a "cirrus/repack" program. "Bring your cirrus to one of our 90 locations and we'll repack your chute. Absolutely free."

I'll get my own instruction on the topics I need help with, thanks.
 
Wow - I'm surprised by the negativity (maybe I shouldn't be...)

How can anyone view this as anything but a good thing? Especially when we know that the pilot is consistently the most likely cause for accidents rather than the machine?

And remember guys, that Cirrus is providing this service for anyone buying any used Cirrus (not just their certified used planes) and will pay third party CFIs for 3 days of training despite not getting a single $ from many of these used transactions. If someone on this board were to buy my plane from me tomorrow, Cirrus wouldn't get a dime of your money but they'd happily pay for 3 days of training for you. No matter how you slice it, that is a good thing and will lead to safety improvements which we should all be in favor of. And this is especially the case since many of the recent Cirrus fatals have been in recently bought used SR22s where the new owners did minimal transition training and got behind the airplane.
 
I wonder if this program is for someone who buys a used cirrus off TAP or Controller etc or if it's for people who buy certified used from Cirrus. if it's the latter, although yes, offering training is great, you know the cost is just baked into the sales price.
 
eman1200 said:
I wonder if this program is for someone who buys a used cirrus off TAP or Controller etc or if it's for people who buy certified used from Cirrus. if it's the latter, although yes, offering training is great, you know the cost is just baked into the sales price.
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not just certified planes. Specifically said so.
 
RudyP said:
And remember guys, that Cirrus is providing this service for anyone buying any used Cirrus (not just their certified used planes) and will pay third party CFIs for 3 days of training despite not getting a single $ from many of these used transactions.
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Not quite accurate. They'll pay a CSIP, not just any 3rd Party instructor.

-----
CSIP REQUIREMENTS
The requirements to become a CSIP are:
  • CFII (Instrument Flight Instructor) or international equivalent
  • 500 hours total flight time
  • 250 hours dual instruction given
  • Professional and moral character
-----
Then you apply... and go to the factory for the training...

They sneak another requirement in there in the application:
-----

Do you have at least 50 hours dual given with Garmin avionics (either 430/530/G1000/Perspective or similar) and are proficient with their operation in the IFR environment?*

CSIP Course Time and Cost Estimates

Normal duration for the initial CSIP course is 5 days for a single avionics qualification with an additional 1-2 days required for dual avionics qualification (Avidyne and Perspective). Each day of instruction provided at the factory is at a rate of $695/day. Aircraft rental if needed at the factory is $300/hr dry (plan on 7-10 hours of flight time for the intial CSIP course and an additional 2-4 hours of flight time for the dual avionics qualification.
-----

So really, they're making some money off of that (not enough to cover all of it, but CSIP definitely isn't free...) process also.

You're probably looking at about $3500 minimum plus travel expenses and lodging, to get the CSIP.
 
eman1200 said:
I wonder if this program is for someone who buys a used cirrus off TAP or Controller etc or if it's for people who buy certified used from Cirrus. if it's the latter, although yes, offering training is great, you know the cost is just baked into the sales price.
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eman- it is for any used sale, so yes to people buying off TAP or controller. That's what is pretty unique about it. And as far as I know, this has never been done in any industry, not just aviation.
 
P.S. No qualms with the program, and it's sure a heck of a lot better than you'll get out of Textron if you buy a Cessna.
 
denverpilot said:
Not quite accurate. They'll pay a CSIP, not just any 3rd Party instructor.
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Good clarification- I didn't mean to imply that they would pay any CFI but I can see how it might read that way. What I meant was that you didn't have to go to Cirrus's training center and use their employed CSIPs (which would have been logistically a pain for many people). So this program doesn't mean you can use any CFI but you can use any CSIP, the vast majority of whom are independent from Cirrus.
 
RudyP said:
Good clarification- I didn't mean to imply that they would pay any CFI but I can see how it might read that way. What I meant was that you didn't have to go to Cirrus's training center and use their employed CSIPs (which would have been logistically a pain for many people). So this program doesn't mean you can use any CFI but you can use any CSIP, the vast majority of whom are independent from Cirrus.
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Correct. And do hope you don't get one who's completely bought the kool-aid from the factory that flying light singles in ice is a good and normal thing... :)

There's a handful of CSIPs around who are a little too "gung ho" about the Cirrus marketing and not as "gung-ho" about keeping their clients alive. Just sayin'.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Cirrus offered me a lot of money to transition to the Grumman :(
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They didn't like your videos....
denverpilot said:
Not quite accurate. They'll pay a CSIP, not just any 3rd Party instructor.

-----
CSIP REQUIREMENTS
The requirements to become a CSIP are:
  • CFII (Instrument Flight Instructor) or international equivalent
  • 500 hours total flight time
  • 250 hours dual instruction given
  • Professional and moral character
-----
Then you apply... and go to the factory for the training...

They sneak another requirement in there in the application:
-----

Do you have at least 50 hours dual given with Garmin avionics (either 430/530/G1000/Perspective or similar) and are proficient with their operation in the IFR environment?*

CSIP Course Time and Cost Estimates

Normal duration for the initial CSIP course is 5 days for a single avionics qualification with an additional 1-2 days required for dual avionics qualification (Avidyne and Perspective). Each day of instruction provided at the factory is at a rate of $695/day. Aircraft rental if needed at the factory is $300/hr dry (plan on 7-10 hours of flight time for the intial CSIP course and an additional 2-4 hours of flight time for the dual avionics qualification.
-----

So really, they're making some money off of that (not enough to cover all of it, but CSIP definitely isn't free...) process also.

You're probably looking at about $3500 minimum plus travel expenses and lodging, to get the CSIP.
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You go to any csip. Not only the factory.
 
denverpilot said:
Correct. And do hope you don't get one who's completely bought the kool-aid from the factory that flying light singles in ice is a good and normal thing... :)

There's a handful of CSIPs around who are a little too "gung ho" about the Cirrus marketing and not as "gung-ho" about keeping their clients alive. Just sayin'.
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The TKS fluid works very well. We fly our Cirrus's all year long. One of the owners flies to Bangor a lot and without the FIKI, we probably couldn't make half the trips. Cirrus also has a great winter weather flying learning module online. I drink the kool aid:D
 
jordane93 said:
The TKS fluid works very well. We fly our Cirrus's all year long. One of the owners flies to Bangor a lot and without the FIKI, we probably couldn't make half the trips. Cirrus also has a great winter weather flying learning module online. I drink the kool aid:D
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I don't mind folks that say it works well. I mind the rabid ones that teach there's no reason to even think about exiting ice with it.
 
denverpilot said:
I don't mind folks that say it works well. I mind the rabid ones that teach there's no reason to even think about exiting ice with it.
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Or don't consider how long they'll be in forecasted icing... or think they will survive it all on low.
 
denverpilot said:
I don't mind folks that say it works well. I mind the rabid ones that teach there's no reason to even think about exiting ice with it.
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mkosmo said:
Or don't consider how long they'll be in forecasted icing... or think they will survive it all on low.
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Exactly. I've flown 2 hours straight in icing conditions but I always made sure I had an out.
 
@MauleSkinner I think we have to give them a little more credit on this one than saying it's "just marketing". Offering real training isn't something that's only designed to make sales. I think they know their Marketing is slightly dangerous when it hits the crowd that thinks it can use a single as an "always get there" traveling tool, and they're at least taking a stab at keeping those folk alive.
 
asgcpa said:
How am I defensive other than I know the Cirrus haters will come out in force.
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The very definition of defensive.


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denverpilot said:
@MauleSkinner I think we have to give them a little more credit on this one than saying it's "just marketing". Offering real training isn't something that's only designed to make sales. I think they know their Marketing is slightly dangerous when it hits the crowd that thinks it can use a single as an "always get there" traveling tool, and they're at least taking a stab at keeping those folk alive.
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I give them lots of credit. They've made great strides in reducing the accident rate of their airplanes through training.

Marketing isn't just about sales, though...in fact, in this case, I'd say it's more about company and product image which, while not directly a sales endeavor, still impacts sales. They saw a necessity to spend the money to expand the training market, probably...
RudyP said:
....since many of the recent Cirrus fatals have been in recently bought used SR22s where the new owners did minimal transition training and got behind the airplane.
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Pros:
I always found it peculiar that more manufacturers don't spend more time (and their own money) in getting their owners trained up. It may cost them a little money in the short run, but in the long run it makes for a safer pilot, a more positive user experience, and ultimately will save you money in the long run. So I can't really hate it on them for putting this out there

Cons:
I mean... the video felt almost satirical. I have nothing against Cirrus and stay current because they are comfortable and for my non flying pax definitely bring about at least an illusion of safety. BUT... this video was heavily ripe with bate that I am honestly surprised they didn't have enough self awareness to recut this before putting it out there... I couldn't make it through more than 30 seconds of it. Felt a little like a flying version of that old Tea Partayy video

RE being defensive
The opening did strike me a little bit coming out "guns blazing" .. but there are a couple trigger words on POA and "Cirrus" is one of them, so I can't really blame the guy for showing up with his sword drawn
 
Tantalum said:
Pros:
I always found it peculiar that more manufacturers don't spend more time (and their own money) in getting their owners trained up. It may cost them a little money in the short run, but in the long run it makes for a safer pilot, a more positive user experience, and ultimately will save you money in the long run. So I can't really hate it on them for putting this out there
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Because it really doesn't save them any money. If their liability insurance goes up, they just pass that along to the customers. And I doubt Cirrus is getting a break on their corporate liability insurance for doing this, over any of the other manufacturers.

It'll MAKE them money, creating fanatics... it's the Apple marketing model... but it won't save them any.
 
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