Cirrus SR22 vs. Vans RV-10

WDD said:
Having an RV 10 sounds great - except that the 5 - 10 year build time represents a rather substantial portion of my remaining flying life span.
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Egg Zachary... me too. Wish I had started building my dream plane about ten years ago. Wouldashoulda.
 
One can get into the builder assisted program and cut the build time to months or less in exchange for substantial amount of $$ though
 
WDD said:
Having an RV 10 sounds great - except that the 5 - 10 year build time represents a rather substantial portion of my remaining flying life span.
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Buy one. The top of the market is ~$250K, $300K max. The bottom is half that. Of course, you can buy a cheap SR-22 too. A quick look showed at least one airplane in the $150's.
 
kyleb said:
Buy one. The top of the market is ~$250K, $300K max. The bottom is half that. Of course, you can buy a cheap SR-22 too. A quick look showed at least one airplane in the $150's.
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I saw a build cost sheet for one sometime back, local, absolutely beautiful state of the art with FADEC and all. His total cost of build was 285k or a little less ... labor not included. I am guessing to build something like that with builder assistance would be close to 350 or more. Still less than half of a new 22. Some people have even installed a BRS in their -10.
 
Where do you find a RV 10 fr sale?
Is build time really 5 years, are we talking about 5,000 hours?
 
TimRF79 said:
Where do you find a RV 10 fr sale?
Is build time really 5 years, are we talking about 5,000 hours?
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Same places you find any plane for sale. However they are in high demand and the fleet is relatively small so it’s all about timing. Build hours is more in the 2000–2500 hr range. The calendar time required to achieve that is highly variable depending on each builders circumstances. Having said that anecdotal evidence suggests the average build time is between 3.5 to 4 years of constant effort. My build took 8 years 8 months from the time I wrote the check for the first kit to first flight. Real nice IFR -10s can be easily be built for under $200K. The guys spending north of $200K are going the spare no expense route and are producing some really fantastic aircraft. Mine cost me around $165K when it was all said and done, and I’m more than pleased with the results.
 
TimRF79 said:
Is build time really 5 years, are we talking about 5,000 hours?
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The build time is largely dependent on you and your quest for perfection. Fit and finish can take a lifetime, or you can call it "good enough" much sooner. I've been at mine for right at 5 years, but have not been extremely diligent at working on it a little every day, which is the real key to moving the project along. Unless you're single (like I was when I built my RV-6), you probably have family responsibilities in addition to your (assumed) job. In my case today, with a family, work on the airplane doesn't start until my son goes to bed in the evening, which is just after 9:00.

As to build cost, I believe you could get an RV-10 off of the ground with a used engine, no paint, and a very basic panel for $125K. Beyond that, it comes down to mission requirements and what upgrades your ego demands. ;-) Buying one? A friend just sold his for ~$180k. Full dynon panel, painted, but a little rough around the edges. Certainly much better fit and finish than a 30 year old production aircraft, but far from a show winner. That airplane could have used a few more fit and finish hours before going to the painter.
 
I've been thinking of tackling one of these airplanes, I'm retired and think I can get it done relatively quickly. I'm retired and would be able to treat this as a full time job. For 8 hours a day that would 2,080 hours in a year. Just not sure I want to make that type of commitment yet, doing it over 8 years would drive me nuts. I also fly a Cirrus with Fiki in the Northeast in the winter. I like the flexibility that provides when considering icing.
 
PaulS said:
I've been thinking of tackling one of these airplanes, I'm retired and think I can get it done relatively quickly. I'm retired and would be able to treat this as a full time job.
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Buy yourself a tail kit and an AMU worth of tools and see if you like it. If you decide you don't, there's a secondary market for kits and tools and you'll get about half your money back, with the tools retaining more of their value than the tail kit.
 
The other thing I would suggest would be finding a current RV builder in your area and helping with his/her build for several evenings. You'll get an idea of the work to be done and the skills required. You might even get that builder to help you when the time comes.
 
Did you all notice the ad for a 10 this morning? $210k asking price. Nice looking machine.
 
Tj1376 said:
I was going to say that there is a beautiful 10 for sale at LSXT that just hit the market, but you beat me to it! Good luck with the sale!

TJ

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
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Thanks!
One day on the market, and 6 qualified buyers.
At the airport with one right now.
If you want an RV-10, act fast.
They won’t stay around long.
 
I was very close to start building one last year, even went to Vegas and attended the basic builder course. (Among other extra curricular activities, it’s Vegas after all) , then something happened and I had take a pause for a year. Well, then I changed job and the new job entails crap load of travel (before COVID), so the build never started. Every now and then when I think about my next and last plane, RV-10 comes up to be on the top of the list. If I ever buy one, that has to be from a reputed builder, not from some jack arse like me, or go with builder assistance program and get it over with. I even did a complete build sheet and my estimates came to $250k without labor. Whenever I start, I am pretty sure it’s going to be way more than that, and I am talking about going all in with all bells and whistles. But that’s not in the cards right now.... so I am making the archer exactly how I want her to be. Will cross the other bridge as and when I get there.

I ogle are vans forum .... I don’t think Kate knows
 
One of the young bucks at the airport is working on a PhD in Aeronautical Engineering. One of his undergraduate projects was to analyze the air frame design of a GA aircraft.
He picked the SR-22.
His final paper had one statement I found to be very interesting. "The rear fuselage needs to be 9 inches longer to provide better/safer performance and stability."
The rest is a lot of math. He did not use the statement "It's obvious to the casual observer that....". It wasn't. Not to me.
I assume he must have been correct in his assessment, as he got an A+ on the paper, and was asked to present his work at some conference.
 
Shepherd said:
One of the young bucks at the airport is working on a PhD in Aeronautical Engineering. One of his undergraduate projects was to analyze the air frame design of a GA aircraft.
He picked the SR-22.
His final paper had one statement I found to be very interesting. "The rear fuselage needs to be 9 inches longer to provide better/safer performance and stability."
The rest is a lot of math. He did not use the statement "It's obvious to the casual observer that....". It wasn't. Not to me.
I assume he must have been correct in his assessment, as he got an A+ on the paper, and was asked to present his work at some conference.
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Not sure why, but I found your post uplifting from some reason. Guess it's nice to see American innovation and the next generation thinking how we can be better.
 
TimRF79 said:
Is build time really 5 years, are we talking about 5,000 hours?
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Really depends on how much experience and how much free time the builder has.

This guy previously built an RV9. Now he's working on a -10. Even with taking the extra time to prime everything, at the rate he's going, I suspect he could be flying in under 2 years.
 
When talking about builds go with hours over years. I spent 1380 hours over 3.5 years building mine. That time might take someone else 10 years, or 18 months.

Also consider every option you do above the standard kit is going to take time, energy and investment. I spent quite a bit on mine both in time and money to get exactly what I want.

Best advice I can give anybody thinking about building is to just actually start building. You don't really need a plan outside of ordering the first kit and some tools.
 
When I lived in Louisville, I volunteered with a high school STEM / Jr Eagles RV 12 build. Had a lot of fun, which I think lot of it was that I was doing it with working with a group of people. I don't know if I'd enjoy it as much if I worked in solitude 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for months / years.

My ideal might be a quick build kit combined with builder assist. If I was retired, took 4 - 8 weeks, it was finished all the way through paint. Maybe a packaged experience with weekends off, etc. Be part of a group of people doing the same thing / starting their build in the same "class" / group.

(Keep in mind I never see myself being able to afford owing my own plane, let alone bear the increased cost of building one myself. Fun to think of "what if" however).
 
Built mine in exactly 5 years. Definitely part time with full time work at home employment and a Maule to fly places on weekends. Handy big shop, no previous experience except for RC in the 60-70s. Did a QB, but did panel and paint myself. Just short of $200k.

Must admit to flying and working less as the build continued and the process became more rewarding than flying the Maule (all the while telling myself we’d be there already in the ‘10).

The key is have to want to do it. The reward is the best flying high performance 4 place machine out there.

But if need FIKI, or want FADEC or a chute, it’s probably not for you. IFR full tanks 4 person traveler, 155kts 11gph @8k LOP? Hard to beat.

1200 hours over 9 years and counting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Bill Watson said:
But if need FIKI, or want FADEC or a chute, it’s probably not for you. IFR full tanks 4 person traveler, 155kts 11gph @8k LOP? Hard to beat.
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I thought you can get an air frame parachute for an RV10?
How is the room for tall (6'6") people
 
Off topic but Revolution Aircraft Inc has high performance two and four seaters for a lot less $ and time than Vans. The Tango’s shoulder room is too tight for this 6’3” guy, and the Foxtrot was lacking headroom in 2010. I’ve heard they raised the canopy height since then, but don’t know for sure. They also have builder assist. They are both composite, so you’d be building a ‘plastic’ airplane.
 
TimRF79 said:
I thought you can get an air frame parachute for an RV10?
How is the room for tall (6'6") people
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One can get a lot of stuff for the RV10 including a chute, but if I really wanted a chute, I’d lean towards the Cirrus. Why? Because it’s a significant addition in my opinion, and I would suggest minimizing significant additions to the Vans product. It’s a great design with few flaws and lot’s of opportunities to customize. But I’d pick my spots with care.

Flaws? The original door latch is flawed. The original composite work was less than elegant and well executed. Those kinds of things are or can be fixed and the original design retained.

Opportunities to customize are unlimited. If you want a 4 place, fine flying, fast VFR cruiser at a minimal price, just get a proper latch, do good composite work and don’t add a thing except minimal instruments (??!!). But no one does that except Vans so customize with care.

When a very fine and capable aftermarket shop started offering a ‘Lexus quality’ interior, people were excited for a variety of understandable reasons. The otherwise taciturn Van himself came out with concerns. His concerns were about weight primarily. There are some knockout interiors out there now and then there’s Vans’ demonstrator with a paint on aluminum interior. To the design’s credit, it will haul the extra weight and still perform, but have you ever flown a plane that is better when heavier?

I say load up on experimental avionics; they are cheaper, lighter, smaller, and more capable every day. Just decide VFR or IFR and try to contain yourself for the sake of your pocket book. Install the standard engine; the Lycoming IO-540 is a great match. Light it up to your heart’s content; LEDs are cheap, light and functional. Keep the interior down to what you need rather than what would look good in a showroom. Lots of people seem to consider an overhead plenum with lights and stuff mandatory. Haven’t figured that one out yet because it’s just more work for what? If I operated out of Phoenix, I’d probably consider AC but a fast climb to 8k+ can work as well.

If your thing is customization or hot rodding or aesthetics (a composite tail cone because you don’t like the lines of the aluminum one), have at it but the plane won’t perform significantly better, you won’t be significantly safer and it will take significantly longer to build. Hey, some would rather build than fly and that’s fine too.

I would never write this on say Vans Airforce because I’d be in a verbal tussle for weeks but just wanted to give some people outside of experimental aviation some opinion from one builder/flyer.

The RV10 is a contemporary classic.

Oh, I think your find the ‘10 a roomy plane and surprisingly roomy for all 4 seats. Can’t speak specifically to 6’6” but I think it will work well for such a pilot... or even a back seat passenger if you can believe that.


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it's been a while since I watched that video and don't remember the particulars....
I just finished watching Niko's Wing's latest video....and that turbo Cirrus sure does look like a very capable traveller in his videos....high, fast, and far.... although the fast thing is hard to grasp in an edited video....
 
I’ll take a Velocity XL RG over both of them. :eek:
 
Velocity173 said:
I’ll take a Velocity XL RG over both of them. :eek:
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There are compromises everywhere. The two inherent in the Velocity are a lack of short field or slow speed capability and prop damage due to FOD kicked up by the wheels. The compromises in the RV-10 are that it is not as fast as it could be (the old high vs slow speed compromise) and the doors. Efficiency too, compared to the Velocity. What's the useful load on the Velocity? Most RV-10's are 1000-1100 lbs.
 
kyleb said:
There are compromises everywhere. The two inherent in the Velocity are a lack of short field or slow speed capability and prop damage due to FOD kicked up by the wheels. The compromises in the RV-10 are that it is not as fast as it could be (the old high vs slow speed compromise) and the doors. Efficiency too, compared to the Velocity. What's the useful load on the Velocity? Most RV-10's are 1000-1100 lbs.
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1,100 lbs.
 
TimRF79 said:
I thought you can get an air frame parachute for an RV10?
How is the room for tall (6'6") people
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I have personally seen one with FADEC too. Lots of room inside, I am 6.2 and even with the overhead plenum, I had good room to spare and not bang my head
 
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