Cirrus down Colorado Springs, no survivors

[SkyDog58]

This conversation reminds me of something that happened when I was working on my PPL out of TOA. The two runways there are 5,000' & 3,000'. One day I flew over to SBD on a cross country. I landed and taxied off the 10,000' runway and asked to taxi back for departure. The tower said if I wanted I could just turn around and do an intersection takeoff from where I just exited the runway. He told me I had over 7,000' remaining. I figured if I could take off from 3,000' and 5,000' then why not 7,000'. Did I really need the full 10,000'? I thought not so I spun around and took off and had several thousand feet remaining when I rotated. Heck, I think I was at pattern altitude by the end of the runway! Since then I have landed and taken off from some fairly short runways and while I understand that more can be better, it is not always necessary and there are times that it does not gain you anything at all.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Also the idea that you need to make a decision and stick to it doesn't make sense. It's a dynamic situation so if you make a decision and it becomes obvious it's not going to work what's the point of sticking to it?

I think you are misunderstanding the point about committing. I am referring to the initial go/no-go point only. Just like a rejected takeoff in a twin, you have a better chance of not freezing or delaying initial action if you are prepared. Once the engine failure happens and you make that initial decision, of course the situation is dynamic and you adjust accordingly.

But let's just say your airplane needs 600' to do a turn back. You don't want to be at 500' lose the engine and pondering 'should I turn back????' Or get suckered into 'oh, I'm close enough, I can make it' and give up an opportunity to pick a safe spot ahead. That will get you killed. This isn't about perfection in maneuvers, it is about increasing your odds of survival of which the number one rule is to maintain control of the airplane.

Just like losing an engine on takeoff in a twin. You don't want to be a couple kts above redline with the gear still down and get suckered in the heat of battle to quickly pull the gear up in hopes of climbing out.

But if you prefer to wing it, by all means, that is your choice.

 

[3393RP]

So, you're in DFW with 10,000+ feet. Tower assigns you the 200' from the end intersection to get in front of the 777. Airlines consistently do this type of thing. Will you decline?

I don't think the pilot of a LSA has to concern himself with imaginary runway scenarios at DFW.

 

[Kritchlow]

I don't think the pilot of a LSA has to concern himself with imaginary runway scenarios at DFW.

Precisely why I asked where he would draw the line. He said there is NO line, FULL runway.

 

[Kritchlow]

I think you know the answer to that without even having to ask. We're not nit-picking here.

Well, than I would ask about 8,000 remaining on a 10,000 footer. This is exactly why I asked where you would draw the line. It wasn't me that said
"Full length for me is full length. There's no line to be drawn."

 

[Silvaire]

By taxiing back to the departure end of a 10,000 foot runway in your Piper Cub you have altered the time line for the rest of your life. A day, a week, a month later you may be driving down the highway when a rock from a gravel truck hits your windshield and breaks it. Had you made the intersection departure a week earlier you wouldn't have been at that particular point at that particular time and wouldn't have met that rock.

Of course it could go the other way too.

 

[Sundancer]

Uhhhh, how about this? If I have enough altitude to successfully turn back, that's what I'll do. If not, I won't.

"At this airport, this runway, these conditions, today's altitude is 700 AGL."

I don't think I'll suddenly forget how to turn without stalling. Some folks have come to a bad end doing the turn. So be it, it is the truth. But it really isn't that hard to keep the AoA below stall, even close to the ground and andrenaline rushed.

I do hear high time guys have ended this badly - though total hours has never seemed as important to me as recency of experience; we've all heard the old joke "He doesn't have 5,000 hours - he has one hour, 5,000 times"

A bit of practice and experimenting worked for me, and I ain't Chuck Yeager.

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

Well, than I would ask about 8,000 remaining on a 10,000 footer. This is exactly why I asked where you would draw the line. It wasn't me that said
"Full length for me is full length. There's no line to be drawn."

Are you arguing full length?

Or just trying to look like an azzhole?

 

[FastEddieB]

Uhhhh, how about this? If I have enough altitude to successfully turn back, that's what I'll do. If not, I won't.

I don't think I'll suddenly forget how to turn without stalling. Some folks have come to a bad end doing the turn. So be it, it is the truth. But it really isn't that hard to keep the AoA below stall, even close to the ground and andrenaline rushed.

How many of those killed, like the poor souls in the Mooney in the prior linked video, thought exactly the way you appear to, right up to the wing drop and spin?

Or do you see these "lesser" pilots thinking to themselves, "I'm exactly the kind of pilot to accidentally stall/spin in a rushed return to the airport, but here goes anyway..."

"Pride goeth before a fall", and history shows that even highly skilled pilots can fall victim to stalling and spinning in the seconds it takes to make a turn back to the airport. Except for you of course, since you are among the few that knows how to keep from stalling and spinning even in a rushed turn after an engine failure with no warning.

"Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them." George Santayana

 

[pikespeakmtnman]

Better to lose an engine, land straight ahead and live to question whether or not a turn back would have been possible than to turn back, stall and die in a crash.

 

[Henning]

The funny thing is, you may or may not do what you train or think. It's impossible to predict, and irrelevant to judge someone on.

 

[timwinters]

The funny thing is, you may or may not do what you train or think. It's impossible to predict, and irrelevant to judge someone on.

Yep

...

 

[Sundancer]

How many of those killed, like the poor souls in the Mooney in the prior linked video, thought exactly the way you appear to, right up to the wing drop and spin?

Or do you see these "lesser" pilots thinking to themselves, "I'm exactly the kind of pilot to accidentally stall/spin in a rushed return to the airport, but here goes anyway..."

"Pride goeth before a fall", and history shows that even highly skilled pilots can fall victim to stalling and spinning in the seconds it takes to make a turn back to the airport. Except for you of course, since you are among the few that knows how to keep from stalling and spinning even in a rushed turn after an engine failure with no warning.

"Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them." George Santayana

I kinda hope everyone here is the kind of pilot who can make a turn without stalling. Clearly, the trick is doing so - or getting prepped to do so, down low.

I hear you, and yes, some "highly skilled" pilots came to a bad end in this situation. I'd say they were not, at that moment, and unfortunately, exhibiting those skills. Distraction, fear, etc., did them in.

I gave this some practical experimentation, and yeah, it's creepy the first few times, yanking and banking that close to the ground. That's why I mentioned, earlier, that the first time you do it shouldn't be for real. For me, it took some learning, and establishing some rough rules of thumb on altitude.

I'll add that practicing it at altitude isn't of much value, after getting an idea of time and altitude loss - you really need to get conditioned to those visual clues that are scary as heck. Or I did, anyway.

No way for me to speak to the Mooney pilot's state of mind, and it would be sleazy to do so; and no, I don't think of him as a "lesser" pilot. Maybe he was taken by surprise, or distracted, or not fully prepared for the possibility. I haven't flown a Mooney, and I'm not qualified to have an opinion - I do know, in a 172, there are altitude and wind combinations that make a turn-back workable for me. . .