Chevy Volt

[GRG55]

GM and Ford: "We're going to stop selling sedans, nobody wants them any more."
Tesla: <building sedans as fast as it possibly can> "What?!? Nobody wants YOUR sedans."

I also still see a ton of newer Audi and BMW sedans on the roads.

 

[Grum.Man]

What is considered excellent sales for Tesla, BMW, AUDI, ETC... is just a drop in the bucket for GM.

 

[FastEddieB]

The Volt never struck me as a compact car. I thought it was quite a roomy and fairly large 5 passenger sedan?

Nope. The front seats were fine, but the rear appeared terribly cramped for those of normal stature.

From Car and Driver:

“Back-seat passengers will have to contend with limited legroom and even more limited headroom during their journeys in the Volt. Chevrolet added a third seatbelt during the Volt’s 2016 redesign, but the large center tunnel that travels the whole length of the passenger compartment hasn’t moved, so there’s still no space for the legs of the middle-seat passenger. We might say beggars can’t be choosers, but if rear-seat space is a priority, drivers should choose almost any other car in the class instead.”

 

[FastEddieB]

Generally, once the battery is depleted it functions just like a normal hybrid, but the engine does not charge the battery all the way up - That's what you plug it in for. The total range is the sum of the electric range and the gas-powered range, and is generally several hundred miles like a "normal" car.

One thing I’ve discovered from online forums is that in the case of the Clarity it’s best not to run the battery all the way down*, unless you’re on level terrain or close to home. The gas engine is fairly small, and the car fairly heavy, and if hills are encountered with no battery reserve, the engine audibly struggles on uphill grades where normally the battery would substantially contribute, then regen on following downhill stretch. Most owners seem to agree that keeping the battery no less than 30% to 50% really helps performance in the mountains.

It seems fairly standard to run just on the battery for short trips on city streets and to switch to hybrid mode for interstate travel. Hybrid mode seeks to maintain the battery at its current level. Hold the hybrid button down and it switches to a mode where the engine will charge the battery up to 55%, but it’s generally best to avoid that mode since it’s very inefficient. But still useful if the battery is low and hills are ahead, again to provide some performance reserve.

*Even allowing the car to go the zero EV miles remaining, the car knows not to discharge the battery to the point it would damage it.

 

[Velocity173]

Yep, leg room sucks in the Volt. Of course the gen 1 there’s no third seat because the battery tunnel goes through there.

The battery like most EVs, never is fully charged or fully depleted. I wanna say on the Volt it only charges to around 80% capacity and depletes down to around 30% before the ICE kicks in.

Kinda sad to see them close the line. I’ve got the “Ultimate Factory: Chevy Volt” and “Revenge of the Electric Car” DVDs. The Volt was an enormous and risky undertaking for GM after the recession and as such took 3 times longer to design than any other GM car in history. Bob Lutz was up against a lot of naysayers. Looking back, they might well have been right. While the EV / hybrid compact sedan meets my needs, apparently the rest of America wants gas SUVs. At any rate, hopefully those losing their jobs will rebound into other areas in GM in the future.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/b...-volt-donald-trump-general-motors/2120687002/

 

[GRG55]

Nope. The front seats were fine, but the rear appeared terribly cramped for those of normal stature.

From Car and Driver:

“...Chevrolet added a third seatbelt during the Volt’s 2016 redesign, but the large center tunnel that travels the whole length of the passenger compartment hasn’t moved, so there’s still no space for the legs of the middle-seat passenger...”

Really? Sounds like GM must have been recycling left over floor pans from the 1975 rear-wheel drive Caprice or something. Why would a hybrid need a center tunnel that big?

Edit added: V173 answered the question in the post above - battery tunnel.

 

[weilke]

Yeah, I have been thinking about a 1G Leaf to drag behind the Winnebago. You can pick them up really cheap.

You get what you pay for. They sucked right from the factory.

 

[FastEddieB]

Make sure any EV you plan on towing is approved for that.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Make sure any EV you plan on towing is approved for that.

If you leave the ignition on while towing, it’ll be good for a nice regen battery charge ...

 

[SoonerAviator]

What is considered excellent sales for Tesla, BMW, AUDI, ETC... is just a drop in the bucket for GM.

Exactly. Seeing "lots of them" is subjective anyway. Driving inside the DC beltway, you'll see every other car is a BMW/Audi/Mercedes. Drive in Dallas, much less so. Drive in OK and they're probably less than 10% of the cars on the road, combined. Honestly, the crossover SUV makes more sense from a utility standpoint over a full-size sedan like a 5-series/7-series BMW or Ford Fusion. There's not much of a fuel efficiency penalty or performance penalty for taking a full-size sedan and adding cargo space where the trunk used to be. Same engines/transmissions, similar vehicle weights, too. Just more usable interior space and slightly taller height.

 

[GRG55]

If you leave the ignition on while towing, it’ll be good for a nice regen battery charge ...

A blonde I know asked why Tesla didn't put a propeller-driven generator on the car to constantly re-charge the battery while it is moving so it doesn't ever have to be plugged in.

She said it would cure every guy's nightmare..."not going the distance".

 

[flyingcheesehead]

One thing I’ve discovered from online forums is that in the case of the Clarity it’s best not to run the battery all the way down*, unless you’re on level terrain or close to home. The gas engine is fairly small, and the car fairly heavy, and if hills are encountered with no battery reserve, the engine audibly struggles on uphill grades where normally the battery would substantially contribute, then regen on following downhill stretch. Most owners seem to agree that keeping the battery no less than 30% to 50% really helps performance in the mountains.

This is where a company that's inexperienced in EVs misses the mark. The Volt has a "Mountain mode" that proactively puts extra charge into the battery even in periods of low demand, so it's there when you want to go uphill.

The battery like most EVs, never is fully charged or fully depleted. I wanna say on the Volt it only charges to around 80% capacity and depletes down to around 30% before the ICE kicks in.

Exactly. And because GM chose to use such a small proportion of the battery, degradation is almost nonexistent. The battery on a Volt will pretty much last forever.

Really? Sounds like GM must have been recycling left over floor pans from the 1975 rear-wheel drive Caprice or something. Why would a hybrid need a center tunnel that big?

Edit added: V173 answered the question in the post above - battery tunnel.

Yeah, the battery on the Volt is under the trunk and up through the center tunnel. Not one of the better parts of the design, IMO - Most EVs that are designed as EVs instead of being converted ICE models use a "skateboard" where the battery is on the bottom of the car, which makes the CG really low, which is great for safety and handling.

I'm guessing that GM must have put the battery back there to even out the CG front to rear, since all of the other powertrain components are up front.

 

[weilke]

Looks like GM is axing the Volt.

 

[wanttaja]

A blonde I know asked why Tesla didn't put a propeller-driven generator on the car to constantly re-charge the battery while it is moving so it doesn't ever have to be plugged in.

Must have been a lot of blondes working at the US Patent Office in 1927. According to the patent application:

“At a given time the aviator may stop the gasoline motor and in the same instance both disengage the clutch and close the switch…the electric motor thus acts in substitution for the gasoline motor. Forward motion of the aircraft at characteristic high speed will keep the wind wheels turning….Electrical propulsion of the propeller may therefore be continued over an extended period…”

Ron Wanttaja

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Must have been a lot of blondes working at the US Patent Office in 1927.

The Patent Office keeps track of who had the idea, not whether it would actually work.

 

[Matthew]

I was just looking at maps showing charging stations. In S/W KS they are pretty sparse. I did see one place in Dodge City that has Tesla stations, but the closest "other" charging locations were a hundred or so miles away. I have family in Garden City, KS (about an hour west of Dodge) and it doesn't look like it would be practical to drive down there in an EV. I've considered an EV for commuting purposes, but the thought of getting on a highway and not finding a place to charge is always on my mind.

 

[weilke]

I was just looking at maps showing charging stations. In S/W KS they are pretty sparse. I did see one place in Dodge City that has Tesla stations, but the closest "other" charging locations were a hundred or so miles away. I have family in Garden City, KS (about an hour west of Dodge) and it doesn't look like it would be practical to drive down there in an EV. I've considered an EV for commuting purposes, but the thought of getting on a highway and not finding a place to charge is always on my mind.

So far, EVs are a toy for those who can afford to keep another car around for the trips they can't do with the EV.

 

[tspear]

So far, EVs are a toy for those who can afford to keep another car around for the trips they can't do with the EV.

Nah, the "affordable" ones are daily driver/commute cars. Many families have more than one car; with at least one daily driver. These are prime targets.
A childhood friend who is a single mom (divorced); just posted on FB she bought a Nissan Leaf to replace her old Honda Accord which was no longer reliable. Loves it so far, question from parents was how are you going to drive the 900 miles to visit us? Her reply, she will rent a car for the week, and even with that cost she saves money.

Tim

 

[weilke]

Loves it so far, question from parents was how are you going to drive the 900 miles to visit us? Her reply, she will rent a car for the week, and even with that cost she saves money.

Tim

Yeah, but she has to drive a Leaf.

 

[tspear]

Yeah, but she has to drive a Leaf.

lmao, well I have. And it was surprisingly descent for a small car.

Tim

 

[Matthew]

With two of us, we have the equivalent of one local car and one highway car. Replacing the local car some day with an EV would be an option, but we'd still need that highway car. Of course, depending on the vehicle and where you drive, it would be possible to go XC in an EV but you'd have to plan. Our trip from here to S/W KS doesn't give too many options.

 

[weilke]

With two of us, we have the equivalent of one local car and one highway car. Replacing the local car some day with an EV would be an option, but we'd still need that highway car. Of course, depending on the vehicle and where you drive, it would be possible to go XC in an EV but you'd have to plan. Our trip from here to S/W KS doesn't give too many options.

My dad is an engineer. 40 years ago he would chew your ear off no how all he needed for an in-town car is an electric vehicle. 'We have these forklifts in the plant, they run all day on two battery packs. Yet for some reason nobody can build an electric car that can get me back and forth to work.'

And thats what most of the EVs are today. Certainly the wilting Leaf.

 

[Lindberg]

Nah, the "affordable" ones are daily driver/commute cars. Many families have more than one car; with at least one daily driver. These are prime targets.
A childhood friend who is a single mom (divorced); just posted on FB she bought a Nissan Leaf to replace her old Honda Accord which was no longer reliable. Loves it so far, question from parents was how are you going to drive the 900 miles to visit us? Her reply, she will rent a car for the week, and even with that cost she saves money.

Tim

How affordable are they without the gift from your fellow taxpayers? My last affordable car cost less than the subsidy on these and gets almost 30mpg. Electric cars are a boondoggle.

 

[tspear]

How affordable are they without the gift from your fellow taxpayers? My last affordable car cost less than the subsidy on these and gets almost 30mpg. Electric cars are a boondoggle.

Jenny said payback was less than two years comparing a new Honda Civic vs Nissan Leaf. She also drives about 80 miles a day. She is an accountant, so she tracks every penny and included such details as the cost of the loan.
As for subsidy, that car you drive is subsidized, so is the fuel... everything is subsidized to some degree.

Tim

 

[Lindberg]

Jenny said payback was less than two years comparing a new Honda Civic vs Nissan Leaf. She also drives about 80 miles a day. She is an accountant, so she tracks every penny and included such details as the cost of the loan.
As for subsidy, that car you drive is subsidized, so is the fuel... everything is subsidized to some degree.

Tim

How is my car subsidized?

 

[tspear]

How is my car subsidized?

Raw materials; e.g. a significant amount of aluminum is subsidized in both USA and China (two of the largest producers for the USA market).
Pretty much ever manufacturing plant has been granted tax credits from local/state taxes.

Tim

 

[Lindberg]

Raw materials; e.g. a significant amount of aluminum is subsidized in both USA and China (two of the largest producers for the USA market).
Pretty much ever manufacturing plant has been granted tax credits from local/state taxes.

Tim

Those are common to all vehicles.

 

[GRG55]

Those are common to all vehicles.

That's what he said. Yours included.

 

[Lindberg]

That's what he said. Yours included.

So it would affect the price of all cars equally, and it's irrelevant to my point. The electric cars have special subsidies.

 

[tspear]

So it would affect the price of all cars equally, and it's irrelevant to my point. The electric cars have special subsidies.

So does gas, which affects the total cost of ownership......

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk

 

[flyingron]

What subsidy? The only subsidy was the $7500 tax credit (which goes to the owner). That's pretty much used up for the Volt (and is used up for the Teslas). There might be some in certain states, but in Virginia they charge you EXTRA on your registration to have an electric car (as they feel you aren't paying your share of the gas tax). At least they relented and decided that the Volt and other efficient hybrids shouldn't be penalized as such.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Jenny said payback was less than two years comparing a new Honda Civic vs Nissan Leaf. She also drives about 80 miles a day. She is an accountant, so she tracks every penny and included such details as the cost of the loan.
As for subsidy, that car you drive is subsidized, so is the fuel... everything is subsidized to some degree.

Tim

I assume that takes the $7,500 federal tax rebate into account, otherwise I would love to see the math on that one. They start out almost $10K apart in purchase cost. At 80mi/day, the Civic would cost right at $2K/yr in fuel assuming 35mpg. Even if the Leaf were charged for free, that's a 5-yr payback.

 

[weilke]

As for subsidy, that car you drive is subsidized, so is the fuel... everything is subsidized to some degree.

How is my fuel subsidized if 20+% of the pump price are taxes (+ indirect taxes such as separation taxes in the places that charge them) ?

 

[tspear]

I assume that takes the $7,500 federal tax rebate into account, otherwise I would love to see the math on that one. They start out almost $10K apart in purchase cost. At 80mi/day, the Civic would cost right at $2K/yr in fuel assuming 35mpg. Even if the Leaf were charged for free, that's a 5-yr payback.

I would assume it includes all rebates; and also oil changes, brakes, transmission fluids... As I said an accountant. She tracks every penny.

Tim

 

[tspear]

How is my fuel subsidized if 20+% of the pump price are taxes (+ indirect taxes such as separation taxes in the places that charge them) ?

Slightly dated: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...minute-in-subsidies-says-imf?CMP=share_btn_tw
Basically, oil/gas gets $200 Billion a year in tax breaks/subsidies. EVs get $2 Billion. Effectively 1% of the same level.

Tim

 

[weilke]

Slightly dated: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...minute-in-subsidies-says-imf?CMP=share_btn_tw
Basically, oil/gas gets $200 Billion a year in tax breaks/subsidies. EVs get $2 Billion. Effectively 1% of the same level.

Tim

Those are freely invented numbers based on the claim that 'fossil polluters' are not required to pay the cost of climate change.
Not charging someone for hypothetical damage is not a subsidy.
Paying someone $7500 cash to offset their tax bill is a subsidy.

Chevy is about to reach the 200,000 cap on subsidized Volts and will discontinue the type until the government gravy train comes back around . I expect that to happen with the passage of the 'Crumbling-Bridges-Fixing-Potholes-Build-a-new-Airport-In-Alaska-fix-Climate-change-and-general-happiness-act-of-2019'.

 

[tspear]

Chevy is about to reach the 200,000 cap on subsidized Volts and will discontinue the type until the government gravy train comes back around . I expect that to happen with the passage of the 'Crumbling-Bridges-Fixing-Potholes-Build-a-new-Airport-In-Alaska-fix-Climate-change-and-general-happiness-act-of-2019'.

Such a cynic. (I agree)

Tim

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was just looking at maps showing charging stations. In S/W KS they are pretty sparse. I did see one place in Dodge City that has Tesla stations, but the closest "other" charging locations were a hundred or so miles away. I have family in Garden City, KS (about an hour west of Dodge) and it doesn't look like it would be practical to drive down there in an EV. I've considered an EV for commuting purposes, but the thought of getting on a highway and not finding a place to charge is always on my mind.

Yeah, some of those very rural places that you don't get to on an Interstate are not ideal for EVs. It'd be do-able via one of three methods in a longer-range Tesla. In order from worst to best:

1) A stop at the Wichita Supercharger in both directions. About 30 miles further each way, and you would need a full charge in Garden City, so you would need to plug into a 240V outlet overnight or a 120V outlet for a good three days. Not ideal.
2) A short stop at the Salina Supercharger on the way down and a slightly longer stop on the way back, along with plugging into the wall at your family's house while you were there. Pretty much the same deal as #1, but 30 miles shorter each way.
3) Staying on I-70 for longer and going to the Hays Supercharger each way. This is about 30 miles further than #1 or #2 each way, and you would need to spend longer at the Supercharger than you would at Salina, but you wouldn't need to charge at the destination.

With a Bolt, you would be able to make it with a stop at BMW of Wichita's fast charger, but you would need nearly a full charge there in both directions (probably 1.5 hours), judicious use of HVAC and speed, AND a full charge at the destination.

No other pure EV can make the trip. You weren't kidding about SW KS being an EV desert. Here's the whole state:

So far, EVs are a toy for those who can afford to keep another car around for the trips they can't do with the EV.

Except Teslas, but that's another whole realm of "afford"...

Nah, the "affordable" ones are daily driver/commute cars. Many families have more than one car; with at least one daily driver. These are prime targets.
A childhood friend who is a single mom (divorced); just posted on FB she bought a Nissan Leaf to replace her old Honda Accord which was no longer reliable. Loves it so far, question from parents was how are you going to drive the 900 miles to visit us? Her reply, she will rent a car for the week, and even with that cost she saves money.

The smartest thing BMW did with the i3: They let you use a BMW gasser for free for a week or two each year, so you can use the i3 as your only car and just use the loaner for road trips when needed.

What subsidy? The only subsidy was the $7500 tax credit (which goes to the owner). That's pretty much used up for the Volt (and is used up for the Teslas).

Not entirely. If you order a Tesla by Friday, they're guaranteeing delivery by the end of the year, which means you'd still get the full $7500 tax credit. Then, if you take delivery in the first half of next year the credit is $3750, second half of next year it's $1875, and then it goes away in 2020.

GM is on the verge of hitting the 200,000-car limit as well.

Those are freely invented numbers based on the claim that 'fossil polluters' are not required to pay the cost of climate change.
Not charging someone for hypothetical damage is not a subsidy.

Using our mighty military to get cheap oil is a subsidy.

Chevy is about to reach the 200,000 cap on subsidized Volts and will discontinue the type until the government gravy train comes back around . I expect that to happen with the passage of the 'Crumbling-Bridges-Fixing-Potholes-Build-a-new-Airport-In-Alaska-fix-Climate-change-and-general-happiness-act-of-2019'.

I don't think those are related. The tax credit is per manufacturer, not per vehicle. Chevy also makes the Bolt EV, which is still going to be produced.

 

[Matthew]

Yeah, some of those very rural places that you don't get to on an Interstate are not ideal for EVs. It'd be do-able via one of three methods in a longer-range Tesla. In order from worst to best:

1) A stop at the Wichita Supercharger in both directions. About 30 miles further each way, and you would need a full charge in Garden City, so you would need to plug into a 240V outlet overnight or a 120V outlet for a good three days. Not ideal.
2) A short stop at the Salina Supercharger on the way down and a slightly longer stop on the way back, along with plugging into the wall at your family's house while you were there. Pretty much the same deal as #1, but 30 miles shorter each way.
3) Staying on I-70 for longer and going to the Hays Supercharger each way. This is about 30 miles further than #1 or #2 each way, and you would need to spend longer at the Supercharger than you would at Salina, but you wouldn't need to charge at the destination.

With a Bolt, you would be able to make it with a stop at BMW of Wichita's fast charger, but you would need nearly a full charge there in both directions (probably 1.5 hours), judicious use of HVAC and speed, AND a full charge at the destination.

No other pure EV can make the trip. You weren't kidding about SW KS being an EV desert. Here's the whole state:

View attachment 69558

That's a trip that's best made in VMC. Because of the winter wx on Sunday, what's normally a 7 hr trip took about 10-12 hrs over 2 days. Slow going because of road conditions and visibility, but also road closures while accidents were being moved off the two lane highways. That's a drive that I don't like doing in a gasser in bad wx. Those small town gas stations are not always open late. Top off whenever you can and hope nothing breaks.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That's a trip that's best made in VMC. Because of the winter wx on Sunday, what's normally a 7 hr trip took about 10-12 hrs over 2 days. Slow going because of road conditions and visibility, but also road closures while accidents were being moved off the two lane highways. That's a drive that I don't like doing in a gasser in bad wx. Those small town gas stations are not always open late. Top off whenever you can and hope nothing breaks.

Sounds like a good trip to make by airplane! KOJC-KGCK would be under 2 hours in the Mooney...