Cherokee in Savannah River

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Racerx

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Ernie

Cleared to land twice. Bumped twice. Engine failure. Talk about a frustrating solo
 
Word is the student was out of fuel, glad he made it. I think it was a ‘he’.
 
Are there any videos out yet about how he always flies with a life vest and life raft and oh yeah, buy this wallet?:goofy:
That being said, nice job splattin' it down, not flippin' it and gitin' out. Praise may be somewhat tempered when we find out what made the engine quit.
 
luvflyin said:
Are there any videos out yet about how he always flies with a life vest and life raft and oh yeah, buy this wallet?:goofy:
That being said, nice job splattin' it down, not flippin' it and gitin' out. Praise may be somewhat tempered when we find out what made the engine quit.
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Yep no doubt. But being a student pilot, and announcing such. He was cleared to land final for 01. Then he wasn't and right downwind cleared to land 28. Then he wasn't and do a 360. So cleared to land twice before he wasn't. Talk about being thrown off your game. Hindsight being 20/20. I think I would have said "unable" after getting nixed the first time.
 
I thought his handling of the situation was pretty good. If the ground tracks were indicative of what was really happening, he did stuff right including the runway switch, the 360 they threw in, the turn to base, etc... The big question is why the engine died. Running out of fuel here seems to indicate something else bad was going on (and I'd have declared minimum fuel if I was that low before we were getting routed all over the place). Frankly, I put a lot of blame on the controller here. It would appear this guy was pushed around for the benefit of a few others like the departing gulfstream that really shouldn't have been given priority over him.
 
It would be bad if this turns out to be a no fuel issue ... but at least he won't lose his certificate!
 
Ugh... if one of my solos let tower run him out of gas, the FAA would be the least of his worries!

Still, he survived a 50/50 proposition. BRAVO!
 
Racerx said:
Yep no doubt. But being a student pilot, and announcing such. He was cleared to land final for 01. Then he wasn't and right downwind cleared to land 28. Then he wasn't and do a 360. So cleared to land twice before he wasn't. Talk about being thrown off your game. Hindsight being 20/20. I think I would have said "unable" after getting nixed the first time.
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Ok. I haven’t listened to it. But. If a runway change, and then one 360 led to fuel exhaustion, there may be a point of discussion about fuel planning. Maybe there were some other factors. I dunno.
 
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flyingron said:
A student pilot certificate is still a pilot certificate.
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True dat. Perhaps I should have specified Pilot Certificate. As a solo student I believe the CFI will be answering a few questions ... if this turns out to be a "too much air in the fuel tanks" issue.
 
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Horrible sequencing. It obvious he didn’t have a gap to put him behind the G4. Follow 73A, turn 3SC left 20 degrees for a 5 mile final. Done.
 
Another possibility is carb ice. He spent a decent amount of time at traffic pattern speed & power.
 
Velocity173 said:
Horrible sequencing. It obvious he didn’t have a gap to put him behind the G4. Follow 73A, turn 3SC left 20 degrees for a 5 mile final. Done.
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Yeah. He was down the sheeter like ol' Tex Ritter. With just a few planes. When N163SC checked in and he just said continue instead of giving a sequence, you could smell things were going to go wonky. Not that weren't already with the bungled intersection sequence. I'm wondering if he was getting OJT and the new voice that came on was the instructor taking over, or someone else in the cab that went over to bail him out.
 
luvflyin said:
Good question, but I don't think PA28's are very susceptible to carb icing
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They definitely aren't as susceptible as say a Cessna, but it still happens. I have a Cherokee and over the years have started using carb heat in the pattern and descent, after hearing instances of it happening.

Just a possibility thats all. Hopefully the prelim points to something obvious!
 
"Air in the tank" may have resulted in waiting until turning base before selecting the fullest tank. There is a potential issue with selectors without a "Both" position. That check list item had not come up yet. I do not know how long it takes the electric pump to deliver fuel through a fuel system filled with air from the selector, to the pump, and on to the engine, and he would have had to turn on the electric pump. At his altitude, even a change to the fuller tank may have been too late.

As a Cessna 172, I have many times been vectored extensively to fit me in with the big guys, who pay the big money into the airport budget. Arrival at some of the larger airports were particularly bad. A student pilot carefully following the instructions given, can overlook something that he had planned to do at the proper time.


Back to the vectoring, the tower owns part of the responsibility for this outcome, but will pay nothing.
On the other hand, if he had declared an emergency, they would have given him the field, at the expense of all other users, as I have experienced.

It is hard for a student pilot to say "Unable" or "Emergency", they feel the need to confirm that they indeed have the skills to fly at their present level of permission from the instructor. The fact that the tower or airframe is putting them outside their preparation may not occur to them in time.

The pilot did keep his cool in the water ditching, calling his instructor, then taking all his portable gear as he left.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. He was down the sheeter like ol' Tex Ritter. With just a few planes. When N163SC checked in and he just said continue instead of giving a sequence, you could smell things were going to go wonky. Not that weren't already with the bungled intersection sequence. I'm wondering if he was getting OJT and the new voice that came on was the instructor taking over, or someone else in the cab that went over to bail him out.
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Kinda wonder if he was in a LAHSO mindset. They do that a lot at SAV. Maybe realized at the last minute that’s a no go with a student. His plan B should’ve been to follow 73A and widen 3SC to follow the student. Just really didn’t make a gap for the student to fit in.
 
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I bet he ran out of gas on one side and forgot to change tanks, or just didn't have time before he splashed down. Cherokees have the power out gliding ability of bricks.
 
Kyle N said:
Another possibility is carb ice. He spent a decent amount of time at traffic pattern speed & power.
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I really doubt this is the case. I fly a Cherokee and I’m based just a short distance up the Savannah River from where this happened. It has been unseasonably warm here lately. I have a temp prob in my carb that displays on my engine monitor. I haven’t seen anything close to freezing temps in my carb around the time this occurred.

I would also hope that lack of fuel, from a planning perspective, was not the issue considering the amount of spare gas the regs require you to carry. Surely the instructor and student verified adequate fuel prior to fight.

As others have mentioned, forgetting to swap tanks could lead to a problem.
 
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luvflyin said:
Good question, but I don't think PA28's are very susceptible to carb icing
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Anything can get carb ice if the conditions are right. My Navion used to have a pressure carb that was supposed to be nearly immune to carb ice. My wife flew an entire flight at reduced power and the conditions were right and it sputtered about the time we got to downwind. She made a short approach and after roll out I thought to check the carb heat... oops, that cleared up the problem.
 
I did my IR check ride in that bird back in December. It was my least favorite Cherokee that school offered.

Nice ditching though. Putting a plane down with things poking out the bottom usually results in disaster.
 
The other two Cherokees had 160 and 180 HP and 2 comm radios. Also, there was a noticeable split between the electronic and static altimeters of 5208. I would end up chasing the altitude between the two.

Although it did get me through the check ride, so there is that.
 
Rich Holt said:
The other two Cherokees had 160 and 180 HP and 2 comm radios. Also, there was a noticeable split between the electronic and static altimeters of 5208. I would end up chasing the altitude between the two.

Although it did get me through the check ride, so there is that.
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I am not certain what you mean by this. An altimeter split of 5208 feet? And when you say electronic, do you mean GPS derived altitude on a Garmin or similar versus altitude from the analog static system altimeter? Maybe I am just misreading all of that but wow!
 
SkyDog58 said:
I am not certain what you mean by this. An altimeter split of 5208 feet? And when you say electronic, do you mean GPS derived altitude on a Garmin or similar versus altitude from the analog static system altimeter? Maybe I am just misreading all of that but wow!
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5208W - I was referring to the tail number. The electronic altimeter was a G5 and the split was about 40 feet. It was too much for my OCD.
 
geezer said:
I do not know how long it takes the electric pump to deliver fuel through a fuel system filled with air from the selector, to the pump, and on to the engine, and he would have had to turn on the electric pump.
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Archer II so essentially the same plane. I intentionally ran one tank dry to check the unusable fuel. I watched the fuel pressure fall to zero, switched tanks, hit the electric pump switch and there was no change in engine rpm. Just one data point. There could have been a surge in fuel from the ‘empty’ tank just as I was eyes-off-the-pressure-gauge to make the tank switch. Or many other reasons.

-Skip

Ps: The result of this unusable fuel test is sadly forgotten.
 
Skip Miller said:
Archer II so essentially the same plane. I intentionally ran one tank dry to check the unusable fuel. I watched the fuel pressure fall to zero, switched tanks, hit the electric pump switch and there was no change in engine rpm. Just one data point. There could have been a surge in fuel from the ‘empty’ tank just as I was eyes-off-the-pressure-gauge to make the tank switch. Or many other reasons.

-Skip

Ps: The result of this unusable fuel test is sadly forgotten.
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I did that test in about 1977, and my memory is worse than yours.

But, I left the selector on the tank until the engine quit completely, with out regard to the fuel pressure. The tank was empty, the plumbing was empty, the gascolator was empty, and the float bowl was empty. The resulting delay to restore power was LONG. at cruise altitude, where I was, no issues, but at pattern altitude, and pattern speed, the delay could be terminal for the flight.

A student pilot cannot be expected to react quickly to both select the other tank, AND turn on the electric fuel pump. I have sympathy for him.
 
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