Cherokee down - Florida

donjohnston said:
It's really quite simple. People screw up. They get distracted, they react poorly when they get flustered. AKA being human.

Not understanding how someone can stall a plane at 500' during a base to final turn is the same as not understanding how two cars can contact each other on an interstate highway.

Now to be clear (because otherwise someone will assume otherwise) I'm NOT saying base to final turns are dangerous or that flying the pattern without the ball centered is okay and that stalling the plane at 500' is standard operating procedure.
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Sounds like chit fundamentals.

Bet the same guy that get slow in that turn also crosses the fence at warp speed and floats down half the runway.
 
James331 said:
Sounds like chit fundamentals.
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I don't know what "chit" is.

James331 said:
Bet the same guy that get slow in that turn also crosses the fence at warp speed and floats down half the runway.
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No. I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying the person that gets uncoordinated in the turn and stalls is a habitual sloppy pilot (but that is possible). I'm saying that people have... moments. Instances where for whatever reason, they do something or have a response that they normally wouldn't do for reasons that in hindsight are obviously wrong.
 
donjohnston said:
I don't know what "chit" is.


No. I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying the person that gets uncoordinated in the turn and stalls is a habitual sloppy pilot (but that is possible). I'm saying that people have... moments. Instances where for whatever reason, they do something or have a response that they normally wouldn't do for reasons that in hindsight are obviously wrong.
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You know exactly what chit is, don't BS a BSer.

And it's bad fundamentals all day long, only time that ball should be out of whack is during a slip, and there's a big difference between flying a little sloppy and lawn darting a plane.

Problem is people who can't even feel the ball or know what those footrests are for, forward to why the 172 and PA28 are horrible trainers.

Also energy management isn't taught, also how many students ever land on anything that isn't a hard surface, or do real full on stalls and spins?
 
James331 said:
Why are you uncoordinated and why are you stalling

Still don't get it
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8521500348_9b792eb64a_z.jpg


Pride goeth before a fall.
 
FastEddieB said:
8521500348_9b792eb64a_z.jpg


Pride goeth before a fall.
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Or just make sure you're in a tight constantly descending oval for your entire pattern. Only time that elevator should be nose up at all is on short final.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m not one for speculating, but to me that looks too close to the runway for a base to final stall.
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I agree. They definitely shouldn't have been at 500' making a base to final turn - that looks ballpark 1000' from the displaced threshold, so they should have been down around what, 100'? Doesn't take a spin if you stall at that altitude over trees!

Hope for full and speedy recoveries. The student has a 1st class (I looked them up to figure which one was the CFI) so I assume she is (or was) also hoping for an aviation career.
 
tiger said:
IThey definitely shouldn't have been at 500' making a base to final turn - that looks ballpark 1000' from the displaced threshold, so they should have been down around what, 100'?
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Is there something peculiar about that airport’s pattern?

I fly a pretty tight pattern, and when I time it right my Garmin alerts “Five hundred” just about when I’m turning final.
 
FastEddieB said:
Is there something peculiar about that airport’s pattern?

I fly a pretty tight pattern, and when I time it right my Garmin alerts “Five hundred” just about when I’m turning final.
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No, and my phrasing could have been clearer - wasn't saying they shouldn't have been at 500' for a base-to-final turn, rather that they wouldn't have been making it there (only ~1000' from the threshold). Given the distance from the threshold a spun base-to-final turn seems less likely than a stall or loss of power on final.
 
James331 said:
You know exactly what chit is, don't BS a BSer.

And it's bad fundamentals all day long, only time that ball should be out of whack is during a slip, and there's a big difference between flying a little sloppy and lawn darting a plane.

Problem is people who can't even feel the ball or know what those footrests are for, forward to why the 172 and PA28 are horrible trainers.

Also energy management isn't taught, also how many students ever land on anything that isn't a hard surface, or do real full on stalls and spins?
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Yes, and how many teenage student drivers today have ever encountered a manual transmission or a clutch pedal?

Your blanket statement the decades old 172 and PA28 are horrible trainers is ridiculous given the %'age of pilots today who trained in them. Like blaming the airplane for the AF 447 accident.
 
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GRG55 said:
Yes, and how many teenage student drivers today have ever encountered a manual transmission or a clutch pedal?

Your blanket statement the decades old 172 and PA28 are horrible trainers is ridiculous given the %'age of pilots today who trained in them. Like blaming the airplane for the AF 447 accident.
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Most who don't live in North America, as well as myself.

The 172 will teach a student to the low ACS standards, no doubt, but it's still dumbing down training. As a student or CFI it's up to you where you want to set the bar, and you don't need to even set it very high to all but eliminate base to final crashes, PIOs, inadvertent spins, etc.
 
My FR a month back was interesting. I told the CFI I wanted to practice slow flight, so I start slowing down until the stall warning goes off. He objects, says we can't get that slow in a Mooney, makes me "slow" fly at 65kts. OK, you're the boss, but if the stall warning isn't on, it isn't slow flight. Next power off stalls. I pull the power, and smoothly start pulling back on the yoke. He objects, doesn't want to full stall the Mooney. OK, you're the boss.....:rolleyes2:
 
Bill Jennings said:
My FR a month back was interesting. I told the CFI I wanted to practice slow flight, so I start slowing down until the stall warning goes off. He objects, says we can't get that slow in a Mooney, makes me "slow" fly at 65kts. OK, you're the boss, but if the stall warning isn't on, it isn't slow flight. Next power off stalls. I pull the power, and smoothly start pulling back on the yoke. He objects, doesn't want to full stall the Mooney. OK, you're the boss.....:rolleyes2:
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New standard for slow flight and stalls. Slow flight is at a speed above warning or light speed. Guess we aren’t really supposed to know about the backside of the power curve, just nibble at it. Oh well. And stalls aren’t.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My FR a month back was interesting. I told the CFI I wanted to practice slow flight, so I start slowing down until the stall warning goes off. He objects, says we can't get that slow in a Mooney, makes me "slow" fly at 65kts. OK, you're the boss, but if the stall warning isn't on, it isn't slow flight. Next power off stalls. I pull the power, and smoothly start pulling back on the yoke. He objects, doesn't want to full stall the Mooney. OK, you're the boss.....:rolleyes2:
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Sounds like you should have been charging him for dual.
 
I kind of recall slow flight being defined as flight anywhere below normal cruise. Don’t have a source right now.

I was trained to demonstrate “flight at minimum controllable airspeed”, an airspeed where any further increase in angle of attack would lead to an immediate stall. I’ve spent countless hours maneuvering at that speed, and later teaching at that speed, and I think it’s worthwile. I think that’s what the PTS called for prior to the ACS, but that what needs to be demonstrated has been softened.

Nothing to say an instructor can’t continue to teach “flight at minimum controllable airspeed” if he or she thinks it will benefit a student.
 
This reduction of standards for slow flight and stalls is a terrible idea. Not to sound like a snob, but everyone would benefit from a little glider time.
 
I learned to fly in Cessna 150’s.

It was eye opening to see what happens on the “backside of the power curve”, where sometimes even full power would not gain you back lost altitude. Especially with full (40°) flaps. That instills a new respect for one reason not to get that slow in normal operations, and the risks involved.
 
Clark1961 said:
And stalls aren’t.
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Yeah, he had me trim up for 65kts, pull the power, and not move the yoke. Ok, it might have buffeted a wee bit before it nosed over, but it wasn't a stall.
 
I was trained to minimum controllable airspeed. And I'm glad I was. I still practice stalls periodically. And all the C-172's I've flown are pretty gentle when they stall. I did inadvertently drop a wing and start a spin (got about 1/4 turn before I caught it) practicing MCA for my second check ride startling both me and the instructor. For me, I really want to know where the edges of the envelope are and what things are like there. I feel the same way about cars. What does this car do when it breaks loose?

I get that we were losing pilots and airplanes teaching spins, but that seems to argue more that the instructors weren't up to par than the training was dangerous. Now VMC demonstrations at low altitude, different story.

John
 
Clark1961 said:
New standard for slow flight and stalls. Slow flight is at a speed above warning or light speed. Guess we aren’t really supposed to know about the backside of the power curve, just nibble at it. Oh well. And stalls aren’t.
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That’s true for Private. Sport, on the other hand, still uses PTS, not ACS.

The FAA decided that flying at minimum controllable airspeed was too dangerous for a Private Pilot. If you want to do it, you will need to upgrade to Sport Pilot.

;)
 
Half Fast said:
That’s true for Private. Sport, on the other hand, still uses PTS, not ACS.

The FAA decided that flying at minimum controllable airspeed was too dangerous for a Private Pilot. If you want to do it, you will need to upgrade to Sport Pilot.

;)
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I also think spin and upset training are beneficial at the Sport and Private level, but oddly enough, the FAA doesn’t think so. :rolleyes:
 
Half Fast said:
The FAA decided that flying at minimum controllable airspeed was to dangerous for a Private Pilot. If you want to do it, you will need to upgrade to Sport Pilot.;)
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OK, so I just read the ACS, and yes, things are watered down a good bit with respect to slow flight and stalls. So, the power off stall he had me do WAS according to the ACS, but it certainly wasn't a stall. Or at least stalls as I know them.

With the time change Sunday I'm going out after work next week and I'll put myself through the maneuvers as I learned them from the PTS. Then start getting my instrument chops back and get an IPC done.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My FR a month back was interesting. I told the CFI I wanted to practice slow flight, so I start slowing down until the stall warning goes off. He objects, says we can't get that slow in a Mooney, makes me "slow" fly at 65kts. OK, you're the boss, but if the stall warning isn't on, it isn't slow flight. Next power off stalls. I pull the power, and smoothly start pulling back on the yoke. He objects, doesn't want to full stall the Mooney. OK, you're the boss.....:rolleyes2:
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That's the new ACS requirement, which doesn't apply to a FR IMO. What you were trying to do Bill was actually MCA, what we used to teach and test on. That CFI should have allowed you to do it though. I still teach MCA and full stalls, and then "tune" the student up for the check ride by performing the maneuvers IAW the ACS.
 
Not to completely hijack here, but I don't think the changes in the ACS vs PTS are to reduce training accidents. The changes were put in place to train pilots to recover more quickly when the plane begins to approach a stall. That's why slow flight is just above the speed at which the stall horn will chirp, you're supposed to recover the moment the stall horn goes. Same with stalls.

It's lame, I agree, but I believe that was the impetus. We don't want new pilots ignoring the stall horn, thinking they can fly behind the power curve....
 
tawood said:
My Cherokee, although very hard to unintentionally stall, does have a tendency to develop a very fast sink rate with the power reduced...if you're not ready for it, it could bite you.
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Hershey bars are bricks.
 
paflyer said:
Hershey bars are bricks.
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It’d be more appropriate to say they can be bricks. At best glide the ratio is similar to a 172 I believe. Gotta be on speed and that is higher than a Cezzna so the vertical speed is higher. They will go just about as far...sorta like the girl with the new roller skates.
 
2Airtime2 said:
Too low for some reason. I have a 180, they are very difficult to stall. In fact (I didn't realize it at the time) I never stalled mine with my cfi. The only time I've ever stalled mine was on my checkride. The dpe said "nope, that's not good enough" and helped me pull the yoke and hold it. That's the only time mine has ever dropped a wing (with me on board) and started to spin. I applied opposite rudder and it immediately recovered. Safest airplane in the sky.
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Stalling is a lot easier in the pattern, low and slow. Large bank angles. Overshooting the base to final turn and increasing bank angle even more. It happens fast with no time to recover.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My FR a month back was interesting. I told the CFI I wanted to practice slow flight, so I start slowing down until the stall warning goes off. He objects, says we can't get that slow in a Mooney, makes me "slow" fly at 65kts. OK, you're the boss, but if the stall warning isn't on, it isn't slow flight. Next power off stalls. I pull the power, and smoothly start pulling back on the yoke. He objects, doesn't want to full stall the Mooney. OK, you're the boss.....:rolleyes2:
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I've read accounts of people putting Mooneys in spins. There were to say the least harrowing. I have to admit, I've not a big fan of getting that close to one. I think the last BFR I did the CFI wanted to do a cross control stall. I said I wouldn't do one without a couple thousand more feet of altitude.
Stall awareness is still more important. You're far more likely to get into a stall in the landing pattern than anywhere else. If you stall it that low your chances of a successful recovery are really not at all good.
 
steingar said:
... I think the last BFR I did the CFI wanted to do a cross control stall...
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Ok, that might be a bit much. Stall recognition and recovery are important, as well as spin prevention. Deliberately trying to put an airplane into a spin doesn't sound like grand idea, particularly for types that don't spin well.
 
jimhorner said:

Sometimes deliberately putting an airplane into a spin can be lots of fun.



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Indeed. That was some of the most useful training I’ve received. Cool video Jim!
 
Ryanb said:
Indeed. That was some of the most useful training I’ve received. Cool video Jim!
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I can’t take credit for anything other than just finding the video. I do like to rent the West Valley Flying Club’s Decathlon (based in KPAO) and take it up for some basic aerobatics (including spins) every now and again. Never have bothered to record any of the flights, however.




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jimhorner said:
I can’t take credit for anything other than just finding the video. I do like to rent the West Valley Flying Club’s Decathlon (based in KPAO) and take it up for some basic aerobatics (including spins) every now and again. Never have bothered to record any of the flights, however.




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Be happy that you can rent a Decathlon solo. Only one we have here is dual only, unless you’re a partner. I’d be more compelled to get my TW endorsement if I had something to fly.

There was some talk in the past of adding a Taylorcraft or something like that to the fleet, but time will tell.
 
Ryanb said:
Be happy that you can rent a Decathlon solo. Only one we have here is dual only, unless you’re a partner. I’d be more compelled to get my TW endorsement if I had something to fly.

There was some talk in the past of adding a Taylorcraft or something like that to the fleet, but time will tell.
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Oh, I am very happy, although I have to put at least 0.8 hours on it every 60 days to maintain solo rental privilages per club rules, and they pulled it out for servicing just prior to my 60days. So I’ll have to take a club instructor on my next flight with it. No biggie, but a bit of a pain.


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jimhorner said:
Oh, I am very happy, although I have to put at least 0.8 hours on it every 60 days to maintain solo rental privilages per club rules, and they pulled it out for servicing just prior to my 60days. So I’ll have to take a club instructor on my next flight with it. No biggie, but a bit of a pain.


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Cool, sounds like a good club! Wonder how they come up with 0.8? I suppose it never hurts to have a second eye out, right? :)
 
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