CHECKRIDE FAILURE

[murphey]

Some cherokees have a Pitot drain in the cabin.

?????

 

[murphey]

There are some really bad DPEs out there.
Twenty years ago, I scheduled a ride with a DPE for an endorsement.
I showed up in my pastor suit. (I did a hospital visit on the way to the airport)
As soon as I walked in the door he asked me for my logbook. I handed it to him and he wrote "disapproved".
He didn't like Christians and he hated priests. His mistake was saying so in front of witnesses in the FBO.
It took two years, but the last I heard of him he was working in a hardware store.

Personally, I would be delighted to fly with any member of a religious order...As a rabbi I know loves to remind people, he answers to a Higher Authority than the FAA. Both in flying and hot dogs. (he flys a cherokee when not with CINCPAC in the G5)

 

[timwinters]

Hmmm...pitot drain...I don't think my 182 has one. And, if it does, it's never been "opened."

I'll have to double check next time I go fly.

 

[jordane93]

?????

It’s just behind the fuel selector panel and it’s a push button. I’m trying to find a picture.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just shows how different they are. Some Mooney models have both pitot and static drain buttons on the outside and they are preflight workaround items.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Light Sport POH’s can leave a lot to be desired, but this is all mine shows on the topic:

Next I’ll check the AMM.

Looks like it runs uphill which would suggest that their ain't no need for a drain since the "low spot" is where it is open.

 

[paflyer]

He gave you your money back?
Did he record the bust? I've never heard of one giving you your money back before.

Also I don't think the regionals have a 3 bust limit, I wouldn't worry too much about that, frankly they can't afford to be that picky, and after years in a regional without any issues I doubt a major will care about it ether.

Choose your battles carefully, but I would be interested if he documented the fail seeing he gave you your money back. Odd

Was this thread edited? Seems to be a lot more information being discussed than what is in the OP.

 

[paflyer]

Also the manual says that you can open the alternate static to drain the system... (the DPE knew about that drain located inside the panel and don't accepted the alternate static answer).

I really didn't knew about it... next time I should read more carefully the POH

What aircraft type?

 

[James331]

..I'm a engineer and explained him very deeply aerodynamics, how the engineers calculate VMC, etc.. but I failed in the simple drain question.

...

Knowing how the engineers calculate VMC, usefulness in the cockpit, 2 out of 10

Knowing how to drain, or check, for gunk in the instrument that tells you your airspeed, usefulness in the cockpit, 8/10

 

[MauleSkinner]

So every pitot drain I've seen is a hole in the bottom of the pitot tube... Is it any more complicated than that on other planes? The location may vary by a few inches but what's up with that?

Keep in mind that the pitot & static drain ports the OP is referencing are different than the little drain hole on the pitot tube...their purpose is to drain water that may accumulate in the system. That means it's the lowest point in the system.

Light Sport POH’s can leave a lot to be desired, but this is all mine shows on the topic:

Next I’ll check the AMM.

In the case of the Sky Arrow, it may not require one by certification, but it looks to be a good example of where the pitot tube and static ports are the low point in the system, so no additional drains would be necessary.

 

[PaulS]

The op originally said pitot drain, nothing about the static system. I'm thinking that most pitot sump drains are not pilot serviceable items, unless specifically referenced in the poh, because if you screw it up, ie not close it properly, it screws up the airspeed readings.

 

[denverpilot]

I knew what is a pitot-static drain.... I wasn't able to find where were it was located. The POH says
"The selector valve is located at the low point of the system. Another drain is provided in the lower left front side panel to drain moisture from the pressure line running between the pitot mast and the instrument panel"


I was nervous I wasn't able to find it.

What aircraft type?

Sounds like a Seminole to me. Am I right?

I know this drain. It’s difficult to see and you really have to familiarize yourself with it once NOT sitting in the left seat but probably with your head over there kneeling on the right seat.

The CFI who checked you out in the aircraft should have shown you where it is and then had you manipulate it once sitting in the seat.

That drain is called out on the POH checklist for every pre-flight or daily, I forget. I could go grab the POH if you want. Sounds like you have it there.

If you can’t find it and manipulate it, you shouldn’t be starting engines.

I suspect your instructor let you get away with sloppy pre-flights in this aircraft and weak system knowledge, and shouldn’t have. Or you forgot. Or there was a communication barrier and you fooled the instructor into thinking you knew how to operate it.

Whichever it is, you were not headed for a good outcome in a CFI ride — where you’re supposed to be teaching it.

Systems systems systems. They’re only going to get more complex as you work into larger aircraft. Teaching them is a whole new game, too.

“Can’t find it.” isn’t going to work for a checklist item on a checkride. Not even for just flying the plane, but definitely not for teaching the plane to someone else.

Get your head in the game, friend. You have to know systems cold, to teach them.

Someone who’s never seen an oil cap on a car before, is standing at the front desk and wants to learn how to fly this airplane.

You have to teach.

 

[denverpilot]

The op originally said pitot drain, nothing about the static system. I'm thinking that most pitot sump drains are not pilot serviceable items, unless specifically referenced in the poh, because if you screw it up, ie not close it properly, it screws up the airspeed readings.

If it’s a Seminole it actually is a pitot and static drain. The horn is out on the bottom of the left wing but the line has to take a bend and go down as it enters the cockpit, so that’s the low point.

It has to be drained of any condensation or ram air forced liquid that got into the line. Rare to find any in it in our dry climate but it’s going to capture water anywhere there’s humidity or sometimes in precipitation.

Here’s the rather wimpy explanation of it in the POH. You get one drawing and a checklist item in the internal preflight that says “Drain”. That’s it. Hahaha.

You really need to know more about it and have learned that from your own CFI to teach it. The POH sucks.

It’s been a year since I flew the airplane but it’s a pushbutton thing as I recall and it can fail giving you no pitot pressure.

My brain says I’m mixing that up with the fuel sumps, which are also oddball. They’re both behind the baggage door on the right side of the aircraft at the fuel low point where it also comes into the cockpit and goes to the fuel selector.

I just know I always have to climb across and look at the pitot thing. It’s in a difficult place to see it otherwise.

If I were teaching in it, I’d have photos to show students. I never took any since I didn’t think I’d be doing any instructing in that airplane. Probably should have anyway.

There’s some nice copies of some photo books of the systems on the Seminole floating around the Internet from the big pilot mills, but I would NEVER “borrow” those of course. Haha.

Google will find them. Never seen any examiners who worried much about the copyright issues on materials referenced on a CFI ride. Heh. Shhhh.

 

[mscard88]

Systems systems systems. They’re only going to get more complex as you work into larger aircraft. Teaching them is a whole new game, too.

“Can’t find it.” isn’t going to work for a checklist item on a checkride. Not even for just flying the plane, but definitely not for teaching the plane to someone else.

Get your head in the game, friend. You have to know systems cold, to teach them.

Couldn't agree more. My MEI using a C310 was all systems during the oral, at least a majority of it. And Nate is correct about system knowledge increasing as one progresses. Simple concept really, know the systems you know the airplane.

 

[Clark1961]

?????

Mine does. Yours doesn’t? Guess it’s a good thing I sed ‘some’

 

[Matthew]

Mine does. Yours doesn’t? Guess it’s a good thing I sed ‘some’

That "drain" can be hard to find. I got checked out in a Warrior one time and the CFI doing the checkout never knew it was there.

The buttons let air into the pitot/static system so trapped water can drain.

Pretty sure at least one Warrior I flew didn't have it. Dunno that story.

 

[FastEddieB]

Of course a CFI applicant should both understand and be able to explain the aircraft’s systems.

But is the standard 100% knowledge? I can see a general ignorance of various systems a clear fail. But just one?

That seems a little harsh.

 

[denverpilot]

Of course a CFI applicant should both understand and be able to explain the aircraft’s systems.

But is the standard 100% knowledge? I can see a general ignorance of various systems a clear fail. But just one?

That seems a little harsh.

A fair question. But this one is on the pre-flight checklist and if the checklist is done in the order shown in the manual, it was completed long before engine start.

Saying you can’t find it after engine start, is essentially saying you never did the pre-flight item.

And the standard does say “instructional knowledge”...

It’s hard to teach a student something you can’t find. Just sayin’. Not trying to be harsh. Just saying that doesn’t look good from here.

I don’t think you need to be able to do the math showing how the pitot system measures airspeed, but knowing where the drain is, since it’s a pre-flight item, is probably well within the scope of “must know” on that aircraft.

It’s disappointing to me because I feel the CFI who checked this candidate out in this aircraft, didn’t make absolutely sure they could teach a pre-flight.

But with the hand-waving about a sign off somewhere else and then a checkride in another FSDO jurisdiction, we really don’t know who checked out whom on what. Could be someone signed off on the ride and someone else just did a quick and sloppy aircraft checkout somewhere else and was not evaluating the candidate’s teaching ability.

My opinion is based upon a SWAG about the circumstances which makes it a gut feel thing more than anything. And the hint about the aircraft type, which was also an educated guess on my part.

Honestly I don’t know. Lots of other things could have happened we don’t know about.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Of course a CFI applicant should both understand and be able to explain the aircraft’s systems.

But is the standard 100% knowledge? I can see a general ignorance of various systems a clear fail. But just one?

That seems a little harsh.

As always, we're getting only one portion of one side of the story, but I'd bet that arguing that arguing that since it's not in the add-on table it isn't fair game played a significant part in the DPE's decision. That's also ignorance of the applicable PTS, so there's two deficiencies, and I highly doubt those were the only factors. Those are just the ones we know about, only one of which apparently made it onto the notice of disapproval.

 

[Lindberg]

I've learned quite a bit from this thread, including that there are pitot drains that have to be manually actuated. I think it's clear that if this is a checklist item, it was a totally legit fail. If the DPE asked if the preflight checklist was competed, and then the candidate couldn't even explain how to do it, I'd say that's a pretty big deal beyond just not knowing. If that's what happened.

 

[jordane93]

What else did you miss? I highly doubt any DPE would have failed you for not knowing what the pitot drain is. Even at my airline, we can get 3 questions wrong and still pass an oral. Even if we are unsure, the examiner tries to help guide us and we are allowed to use all available resources.

 

[Lindberg]

4 - The plane was a Seneca, and yes the pilot drain in on the POH checklist.

This, to me, is a big issue. You could not have competed the checklist without knowing about the drain. But you made it through your training without knowing about it. Which means you made it through your training without completing the checklist. If I was the DPE, I'd be questioning your judgment and ADM as well as your knowledge. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I think you may want to be prepared to answer questions about that.

When you were teaching him the preflight, what did you do when you got to that item on the checklist?

 

[mscard88]

2 - I went cross FSDO because the DPE have fame to pass everyone. Is very famous to pass even people that tried to kill the good engine in an multi checkride. I was well prepared (the school Chief Pilot signed me off, plus I did a previous fly with an retired FAA DPE and both told that I was ok for the test.) . As I had 2 previous failures in CFI initial .... so I tried go with an easy DPE..Anyway was a tremendous bad idea travel and paid 9 hours if I was prepared. Lesson learned too.

3 - Understanding that his had the right to fail me... his behavior was not so good. First thing he told me to learn about the pitot come back on the afternoon to do the test again .... second thing he gave the money back when, after gave me the notice of disproval, I questioned him that he had included on that notice and I should be rechecked in ground reference maneuvers, post-flight procedures, flight by instruments and a long list of the task not included on the MEI PTS. He gave me the money back and said that don't want to see you anymore.



In any case, will no go to FAA and I'm already preparing myself better for the retake in my local FSDO. I'm concerned because the 3 failures but is what it is.

So from what you wrote and I highlighted, you were looking for an "easy" DPE. Why? If you're prepared you're prepared, and it shouldn't matter who you take the ride with. Sounds like you were doing too much questioning and second guessing of the DPE and their actions, which obviously ticked him/her off. And are you saying you won't go to the FAA for a check ride? So you're still apparently looking for an easy DPE? 3 failures, I dunno man, are you already a CFI and instructing?

FYI CFI applicants in the past were required to take CFI rides with FAA Inspectors. What would you do if this were still the requirement?

 

[mscard88]

I already explained why I was looking for more easy DPE and I already explained that FAA rides schedules are hard to get and lesson learned. So now you are telling me that IM a bad pilot because I have 3 fails, one of them because don't know how to find the pitot drain and I should not instruct.
Sorry, Mr. Top Gun pilot and CFI, there is other humans being that made mistakes.

So why were you looking for an "easy" DPE? Your words man, not mine. And are you a CFI now, and currently instructing if you are?

BTW I am far from Mr Top Gun pilot, but thanks for the compliment, or insult, whatever it was meant to be.

 

[MauleSkinner]

He even told me that sometimes I was overwhelming him because too much info aboutaerodynamics and systems (landing gear and governor),

You sound like you think that's a compliment.

 

[Salty]

So from what you wrote and I highlighted, you were looking for an "easy" DPE. Why? If you're prepared you're prepared, and it shouldn't matter who you take the ride with. Sounds like you were doing too much questioning and second guessing of the DPE and their actions, which obviously ticked him/her off. And are you saying you won't go to the FAA for a check ride? So you're still apparently looking for an easy DPE? 3 failures, I dunno man, are you already a CFI and instructing?

FYI CFI applicants in the past were required to take CFI rides with FAA Inspectors. What would you do if this were still the requirement?

I read “will no go to faa” to be a typo of “will now go”.

 

[mscard88]

I read “will no go to faa” to be a typo of “will now go”.

Or "will not go to FAA" .....

 

[Palmpilot]

So from what you wrote and I highlighted, you were looking for an "easy" DPE. Why?...

You quoted the part where he answered that, so I don't understand why you're asking the question.

"As I had 2 previous failures in CFI initial .... so I tried go with an easy DPE"​

 

[Ravioli]

I went cross FSDO because the DPE have fame to pass everyone. Is very famous to pass even people that tried to kill the good engine in an multi checkride.
I got concerned because people say that airlines scrutinize a lot the checkride failures, so I tried go with an easy DPE

You lost a lot sympathy with this.

In essence: "I went out of my way to get a DPE who passes everyone, and then when I choked I asked the internet how to have the easiest DPE sanctioned."

How about "I blew two rides, and instead of upping my game to be over-prepared I blamed the first two examiners and went looking for the easiest one I could find, and blew that too." Much better "lessons learned" story.

But your not alone. The DPE that I use gets trashed by everyone he fails. I haven't had a fail (yet - knock on wood) but there's a certain comfort in being passed on a rigorous examination vs squeaking past the easy examination.

Perhaps that's why C students at Harvard can become President while the 4.0's from the state college teach at the state college.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Hmmm...pitot drain...I don't think my 182 has one. And, if it does, it's never been "opened."

I'll have to double check next time I go fly.

Yeah, that’s why I was asking about the 100 series Cessnas. My 182 has 2 static sumps on either side of the side panel near the floor board, right where the ports are. Mine are clear plastic and look like an egg. We can visually check for liquids. But I don’t think we can drain them with a valve?

 

[Tantalum]

there's a certain comfort in being passed on a rigorous examination vs squeaking past the easy examination.

I agree, plus aren't they all supposed to rate you based on the PTS anyway?

Flying is serious, and the real mettle of a pilot comes when things go south. I don't want to pass if it means I'll end up dead when a real situation happens. People shouldn't pass things just because they worked hard, or in the case of flying, know how VMC is calculated.. they should pass when they've demonstrated subject matter mastery.

 

[Tantalum]

Is very famous to pass

I got concerned because people say that airlines scrutinize a lot the checkride failures, so I tried go with an easy DPE

This makes me uneasy, airlines absolutely should scrutinize failures. You have several hundred people's lives in your hand and millions of dollars of their equipment in your care. I would not hire or feel comfortable flying with someone with this kind of attitude. I'm sorry, people make mistakes, etc., but this is the real world

 

[mscard88]

You quoted the part where he answered that, so I don't understand why you're asking the question.

"As I had 2 previous failures in CFI initial .... so I tried go with an easy DPE"​

Why would this applicant be looking for an "easy DPE" when regardless of who the DPE went with would know about the previous failures. So obviously this third DPE was aware of the previous failures and I am not buying the OP's story of the drain hole as the sole reason the ride was discontinued. There were other issues that the OP isn't telling us about. Appears the applicant may have been a little argumentative with the DPE, never a smart move. Not everyone is cut out to be a CFI. Sorry, it's tough love but that's the way it is, and should be.

 

[flyingron]

It's impossible to tell given the scant information (and perhaps I missed what specific airplane we are talking about), but the PITOT drain isn't some esoteric thing. It's location and the impact of it becoming plugged/iced is a standard instrument written question.

 

[SkyDog58]

Along with studying aircraft systems for your next checkride attempt, you might also study hazardous attitudes/human factors and self reflect a bit. You and your future passengers might greatly benefit.

 

[hindsight2020]

I thought this was the MEI add-on? Meaning you eventually did get your CFI?

Here's what I would do my man: Lay low, cool off on the checkrides for a while, instruct in singles until you get 1500 and forget about the MEI. You don't need the piston ME time anymore to get into the regionals. You probably have enough as it is from the MEI training. Go to airline training, get a couple 121 training events under your belt and move on with your life. That will set you up nicely to move along in your airline career. Sure, mainline may scrutinize your checkride busts in the future and the computer scoring thing at certain airlines may create snags, but no sense in crying over spilt milk.

My recommendation is that if you feel strongly enough that this is already somehow a show stopper for mainline jobs, go into a regional with a flowthrough agreement. That way if in six years you're still at the regional, you may have a backup conduit to salvage your career. No guarantees with flowthroughs either of course, but as a young single person I would move to the domicile of the flowthrough airline in order to not commute, as opposed to digging heels and commuting to a regional, or get into a non-flowthrough airline that's local because you are dead set on living where you are. Though that would be preferable than commuting imo. But this are far rocks. Focus on the near rocks right now, just lay low and get 1500 hours. At any rate, that's my advice. Good luck to ya.

 

[dmspilot]

Seems like a deserved failure to me. Before my multi-comm checkride I read the POH cover to cover more than once. I would expect an MEI to scrutinize it even more closely. Assuming OP took the checkride in a Seminole, having never flown one I Googled "seminole poh" and looked at the first result. The checklist states to drain the pitot-static system and the Amplified Procedures section states how to do it.

 

[frfly172]

Op was for an MEI ride,a large part of the oral,is to be able to explain the systems and how they work. Pilot was probably not ready for the ride,as his instructor didn’t know the examiner.

 

[denverpilot]

Perhaps that's why C students at Harvard can become President while the 4.0's from the state college teach at the state college.

Probably a bad analogy considering the vast majority of millionaires in the US have B grade point averages and very few went to Harvard. Some really crazy high number like 40% don’t even hold degrees.

Being rich has much more to do with savings rate and investing on top of a lack of debt than education, but a Harvard grad likely has better business contacts.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Op was for an MEI ride,a large part of the oral,is to be able to explain the systems and how they work. Pilot was probably not ready for the ride,as his instructor didn’t know the examiner.

Shouldn't matter whether he knows the examiner or not.