Check those NOTAM

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
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Nov 28, 2016
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Priyo
Go ahead and chastise me, I already know I did something incredibly dumb.

I was planning my decent today AM to a podunk airport to meet someone (another pilot) and MSP center read out a NOTAM for me that said the airport is closed till tomorrow. I diverted. No harm, no foul, but this is how this unfolded.

Been keeping a tab on this trip for a while now, early morning is always LIFR over there due to advection fog. Checked NOTAM yesterday morning and it said the airport is closed till today AM. What I missed today AM before lift off was they extended it to another day, OR I read the date wrong OR I thought today was 17th. Whatever the reason is, MSP center saved my bacon, another reason to get FF.

If they didn’t tell me or if I wasn’t with them, there wasn’t a way to tell that the airport was closed from the air. The pilot at the destination airport was there and told me there was no obstruction on the way, no X marks, a couple of equipments sitting on the ramp, but that was it. So I would have landed and make even more buds mistake.

Anyway, check those NOTAMS and get FF and don’t be a dumb like me.
 
Yes, I usually swing through, at times plans are adjusted last minute. It’s nice to have Notams on most flight apps, Garmin Pilot, whatever.
 
The NOTAM system is a joke with so much irrelevant info to most posted that it is too easy to miss important things IMO.

That is why even though I do a full Foreflight briefing I will typically still call a briefer on my way to the airport over speakerphone for an abbreviated briefing for NOTAMS of departure and arrival airports and TFRs...they are really good at sorting out the irrelevant crap.
 
I often complain that our notam system is so detailed that the volume of info for each trip is monstrous (and much it unnecessary).
Because of this volume, we are missing important things (I have heard of your exact issue before btw).
ForeFlight has done some things to help.
I did an asrs on this issue; once I had a multi-leg day with a lot of weather, I copy & pasted the briefings into a Word document & did a word count. I compared the word count to what wiki or maybe dictionary.com said was the average size of a small novel and it compared similarly. I included in the asrs report how long a website said it would take the average reader to digest a detailed document; although I don’t recall the time involved it was obvious there was no likely way for anyone to get it done in a reasonable time period.
Pilots have preflight information overload and are not getting the important data because of this.
I made suggestions on prioritizing data or emboldening the font for dealbreaker/killer items or to trim out the junk.
ForeFlight I think is putting banners on the map? or airport page? which help.
 
Shawn said:
The NOTAM system is a joke with so much irrelevant info to most posted that it is too easy to miss important things IMO.

That is why even though I do a full Foreflight briefing I will typically still call a briefer on my way to the airport over speakerphone for an abbreviated briefing for NOTAMS of departure and arrival airports and TFRs...they are really good at sorting out the irrelevant crap.
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^^^This. :thumbsup:

I do exactly the same, for the same reason.
 
If someone lands at an airport that’s NOTAMd closed and causes no damage or injury and nobody knows, does it make a sound?
 
Shawn said:
The NOTAM system is a joke with so much irrelevant info to most posted that it is too easy to miss important things IMO.

That is why even though I do a full Foreflight briefing I will typically still call a briefer on my way to the airport over speakerphone for an abbreviated briefing for NOTAMS of departure and arrival airports and TFRs...they are really good at sorting out the irrelevant crap.
Click to expand...

I do this also. In addition to Notams and TFR’s I ask for any significant Wx changes in the last however many hours it was since I got my briefing.
 
Salty said:
If someone lands at an airport that’s NOTAMd closed and causes no damage or injury and nobody knows, does it make a sound?
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Probably not, unless someone complains. Like in this case, there was no way to tell from the air the airport was closed
 
I did a 135 checkride at a closed airport.

We took off from home base, flew to the closed airport and did multiple approaches.

Runways were closed, but the tower was open.
 
Did the podunk airport not have AWOS? Every closure I have experienced was announced on AWOS. No “X”s either though. I guess really podunk. FF is probably a pilot’s best friend while enroute.
 
woodchucker said:
Did the podunk airport not have AWOS? Every closure I have experienced was announced on AWOS. No “X”s either though. I guess really podunk. FF is probably a pilot’s best friend while enroute.
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Never look to AWOS for runway or airport closures. I have seen numerous runway or complete airport closures not announced on the automated weather. Some with X’s on the runway, some without.
 
One of my favorite radio calls to FSS...

Me: Glider V6, what is the status of the U50 Airport? (I was pretty sure it was closed)
FSS: it is closed.
Me: How closed is it, are the there any taxi ways open?
FSS: We don’t know it just says it is closed.
Me: OK, Thank you will check it Out and a Land in the field next to it, if necessary.

Fortunately I finally climbed out and was able to proceed on course to the next airport.
 
woodchucker said:
Did the podunk airport not have AWOS? Every closure I have experienced was announced on AWOS. No “X”s either though. I guess really podunk. FF is probably a pilot’s best friend while enroute.
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No weather frequency, there is WX reporting on the EFB, but no frequencies
 
woodchucker said:
Did the podunk airport not have AWOS? Every closure I have experienced was announced on AWOS. No “X”s either though. I guess really podunk. FF is probably a pilot’s best friend while enroute.
Click to expand...

I've said this time and time again, an AWOS is not an ATIS, and should not be expected to give NOTAMs and closures. Not all AWOS or ASOS even have the capability to report anything but the weather. Some newer AWOS may have the ability to add a voice message to the broadcast, but it should not be depended on as not all do!
 
I am forever worried I"m going to miss something important in the farrago of NOTAMs I receive before every flight. I think they would have totaled a light paperback for my last flight.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I've said this time and time again, an AWOS is not an ATIS, and should not be expected to give NOTAMs and closures. Not all AWOS or ASOS even have the capability to report anything but the weather. Some newer AWOS may have the ability to add a voice message to the broadcast, but it should not be depended on as not all do!
Click to expand...

I’m getting piled on for that comment and in no way did I mean to imply a flight plan ought to consist of blasting off and relying on AWOS. Jeesh. My point was that IN ADDITION to due diligence, that around here anyways, every time a runway was NOTAMed closed the AWOS also included that. I’m so very sorry my local flying region has superior AWOS services to the rest of you.
 
woodchucker said:
I’m getting piled on for that comment and in no way did I mean to imply a flight plan ought to consist of blasting off and relying on AWOS. Jeesh. My point was that IN ADDITION to due diligence, that around here anyways, every time a runway was NOTAMed closed the AWOS also included that. I’m so very sorry my local flying region has superior AWOS services to the rest of you.
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I didn’t mean to pile on. Just to add the data point. I wonder if it’s actually regional or just airport by airport and you happened to get lucky with a cluster of places that do publish runway closures on AWOS?
 
iamtheari said:
I didn’t mean to pile on. Just to add the data point. I wonder if it’s actually regional or just airport by airport and you happened to get lucky with a cluster of places that do publish runway closures on AWOS?
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It is an optional piece of equipment on some AWOS's. Depends if the airport installs it, and uses it. Point being, it should not be counted on. And its not just woodchucker's post, I've seen numerous posts in other threads saying, "But the AWOS didn't say..." Either pilots are not being taught the difference between an ATIS and AWOS/ASOS, or they don't understand how and what an AWOS/ASOS is.
 
steingar said:
I haven't called them in memory. I see what they see. They're just as likely to miss something important as me.
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Sure.

But to have “on tape” that you asked if there were “...any NOTAMS concerning my route of flight or a VFR arrival into Kxxx?” and they answered in the negative, could be invaluable if there ever was an issue due to missing an important one.

It works for me. Others may consider it overkill, but so it goes.
 
FastEddieB said:
Sure.

But to have “on tape” that you asked if there were “...any NOTAMS concerning my route of flight or a VFR arrival into Kxxx?” and they answered in the negative, could be invaluable if there ever was an issue due to missing an important one.

It works for me. Others may consider it overkill, but so it goes.
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I remember an enforcement action taken against a pilot who violated a TFR. He relied on his flight ap which posted incorrect information they had received from the FAA. The FAA admitted that the information THEY provided was incorrect but still violated the pilot because he had not received the information directly from an FAA resource. Call flight service and get it on tape. If flight service screws up, you have a defense.
 
Witmo said:
I remember an enforcement action taken against a pilot who violated a TFR. He relied on his flight ap which posted incorrect information they had received from the FAA. The FAA admitted that the information THEY provided was incorrect but still violated the pilot because he had not received the information directly from an FAA resource. Call flight service and get it on tape. If flight service screws up, you have a defense.
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Is this the one you're speaking of? This is why I always call a briefer, as well. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/july/pilot/pe_na
 
NoHeat said:
Why did they staff the tower, I’m wondering. Helicopters, maybe? Or just for pilots practicing approaches?
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Hmmmmm... good question. I never thought to ask them at the time.

Maybe they were there because they are government employees.??

We never saw men or equipment on the runways, or any other obvious reason why both runways were closed.
 
FastEddieB said:
Sure.

But to have “on tape” that you asked if there were “...any NOTAMS concerning my route of flight or a VFR arrival into Kxxx?” and they answered in the negative, could be invaluable if there ever was an issue due to missing an important one.

It works for me. Others may consider it overkill, but so it goes.
Click to expand...
Same. I call before just about any cross-country flight for my information as a double check, and also so there's a recording that I did. If there's ever an NTSB or FAA report with my name on it, it will say I received a briefing. It's also why I try to use the actual N number I'll actually be flying, instead of always just using my own like I used to.
 
Shawn said:
The NOTAM system is a joke with so much irrelevant info to most posted that it is too easy to miss important things IMO.

That is why even though I do a full Foreflight briefing I will typically still call a briefer on my way to the airport over speakerphone for an abbreviated briefing for NOTAMS of departure and arrival airports and TFRs...they are really good at sorting out the irrelevant crap.
Click to expand...
It's become the CYA system.
 
I just recently had an experience showing why relying only on an ipad app for TFR info isn’t always a good idea. I live in the SF bay area and fly out of San Jose. We’ve got massive fires to the south west and east. Friday morning, Garmin Pilot was showing the two TFRs in the area for fire fighting ops.

ed3c196a0f8244bbea3003dfc11e4807.jpg


On Saturday, Garmin Pilot was only displaying one of them:

a1d3056c7b782f6ff95b22c099d31c34.jpg


Very strange because the massive fire to the East didn’t just go away. A check of the FAA website showed the TFR still in place:

34f2395a2ac8f7c2dcd1f5defc6c6285.jpg


I contacted Garmin, and the TFR eventually showed up again. Their explanation was that whoever created the missing TFR used decomissioned VORs to define some of the points, and that caused GP to not display it because the VORs weren’t in their database any more. I was told that Garmin engineers had to manually enter this TFR data.

A few lessons:

1. It’s not possible to rely solely on the app for TFR data. Even though the issue might have been someone else’s fault for misdefining the TFR, the fact remains that GP did not display a real and extensive TFR. Makes me wonder what else can’t be trusted.

2. Always check both the FAA TFR page and the NOTAMs.

3. If going cross country, I try to always file IFR or at a minimum get flight following. I want to be talking to someone who can warn me if a TFR pops up or if I’m about to violate one that isn’t being shown on my app.

I wish I’d gone to the airport and taken the plane up for a brief flight to see if the FIS-B or XM data feed would have displayed the TFR. Next time.
 
Shawn said:
The NOTAM system is a joke.
Click to expand...

Apparently Big John thinks so too.
https://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2019/03/29/notams-are-garbage/


Favorite section of the article:

The fact that NOTAMs are extremely difficult to read once they do get in the hands of pilots is perhaps the biggest problem of all. The style stems from the 1850s, when communications were slow and expensive. It violates virtually every principle of good readability.

To reduce the number of keys needed on the teletype machines of the time, they used all caps, which due to their uniform, block-like shape are difficult to tell apart from each other. Plus, to save space they used codes and abbreviations. All of this might have made sense in the in the 1800s, but today, in the age of huge bandwidths and of practically free communications technology, there is absolutely no excuse for it.

Being stuck in the 1800s also means that NOTAMs don’t make use of the many very basic tools that the rest of the world uses routinely to make our written communications user friendly. Even something so simple as varying type fonts and headlines to show the organization of a communication helps make understanding much easier. Plus, of course, with the availability of images that can easily be captured and displayed on our handheld devices, there is no reason not to back up a description with a graphic every now and then.

With the availability of computers, we should go even further and have “smart” NOTAMs. If a runway is closed, the system should, at a minimum, tell me about the runway closure before it tells me about the rest of the implications such as the localizer, glideslope, and lights all being out of service—if it tells me about them at all.
 
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