CFIs, have you ever had to tell a student to quit flight training?

I wasn't a fast learner. Think I had 60 hrs before solo. Had my own 172 and enjoyed flying with my instructor. Finally one day I was tired of all the t&gs and said this is enough of this. Let's move on. Landings just wouldn't click. All of the sudden it just all fell in place. After that only took few weeks to finish up things. Even after the check ride Didn't feel real comfortable flying by myself for a while. Flew several times a week and it just kept getting easier. Pushed myself just a little more on things like crosswind landings and practiced a lot. Flew lot of different planes and it just kept getting easier. I still won't haul passengers without going up for little and brushing rust off if I haven't flown for awhile. Now days, I fly on average several days a week and it's hard to remember that it used to be hard and that at one time I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to figure it out.
 
brianread87 said:
San Diego, California. perfect location to learn flying.
Click to expand...
In some ways, yes. You can fly in winter, and there is almost always VFR weather far enough from the coast.

But SoCal airspace is very crowded and very complex. Unless you're way off in the boonies, it takes a while to take off and land, and practice areas may be far off. This increases hours to solo just because everything takes longer.

Some place like King City or Merced or maybe Bakersfield or Lancaster or Mojave would be considerably better, especially if you're into 9AM flying.

You clearly had an "off" day. If this is a regular thing, it might be temperament, but if it was once, as it sounded like, you really need to figure out what went wrong. Then, you can control it, or at least predict it. With the constraints your program has, this is essential.
 
Brian: I wasn't ready to solo until maybe 30-40 hours or so. (I'll never know exactly, since I had a long wait for a special issuance medical and ended up soloing at 95 hours. But it was way longer than 15 hours, that's for sure.) Everyone learns at their own speed. There is no shame in taking longer than average, and if your school insists that you solo in a particular timeframe that you cannot meet, then I would find a different school if possible.

Though I must say, I understand that you are at this school because it is (uniquely) free to vets. Getting a PPL is an expensive pursuit and most of us are at least several $1000s poorer as a result. If you cannot afford to do it otherwise, and there are no other schools that you can afford to train at, then that is another consideration to take into account in deciding whether to continue. But it's way too soon to be thinking you will never "get" it.
 
nomad ,what tf is the moral to your **** story?
 
Your license is going to say the same thing as the person who took 5 hours to solo, 10 hours to solo, 20 hours to solo, 100 hours to solo, 1000 hours to solo.
 
brianread87 said:
I can't look into a new school, this is the only school in san diego, california offering free ppl to veteran student.
Click to expand...
Assuming you're a veteran, are you using the GI Bill to pay for your flight training? If so, there are other Part 141 schools in San Diego and SOCAL that would be able to accept the GI Bill flight training payments. (Part 61 schools cannot due to GI Bill rules).

Although Part 61 has more inconsistency, it seems we only hear of these asinine requirements to solo in X hours coming out of the 141 schools. That said, there are Part 141 schools out there who know what it takes to properly train student pilots.
 
i usually advise the student pilot to stick with it {mully were are you} but in your case ditch the a hole kid instructor and hire a adult .you will be fine.
 
Last edited:
When do you have your lessons? I had a student who would fly one day after work and once on the weekend. It was like flying with two different people. We finally stopped the week day flights because he was so wound up from work.
 
hotprops said:
i usually advise the student pilot to stick with it {mully were are you} but in your case ditch the a hole kid instructor and hire a adult .you will be fine.
Click to expand...

What he said.

I went through a couple of instructors before I found one who fit. The first was a young kid with barely 300 hours and not big on safety. The second was an older gentleman who wouldn't let go of the controls and had the personality of a wet log. Decided to try once more before throwing in the towel and, thankfully, the third time ended up being the charm.

There were many times I thought about quitting... definitely suffered through some "maybe this isn't for me" moments, especially after my first solo which was a big, hot mess! lol But I pushed through, in part, because of my own stubbornness and determination, but also in part because I had a great CFI who was very encouraging and had confidence in me even in those moments I did not.

So, switch up instructors and see what happens.
 
Last edited:
hotprops said:
i usually advise the student pilot to stick with it {mully were are you} but in your case ditch the a hole kid instructor and hire a adult .you will be fine.
Click to expand...
Really? Ditch the CFI after 10 hours because the student had an off day?
 
jordane93 said:
Really? Ditch the CFI after 10 hours because the student had an off day?
Click to expand...

"my CFI sounds like hes unwilling to training me"

Also, if he's so discouraged that he is considering quitting, then he should at least try a different CFI first. Maybe it's a compatibility thing, maybe not. Only one way to find out.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
"my CFI sounds like hes unwilling to training me"

Also, if he's so discouraged that he is considering quitting, then he should at least try a different CFI first. Maybe it's a compatibility thing, maybe not. Only one way to find out.
Click to expand...
May have been just the overall dissatisfaction of how he performed. I think the OP is beating himself up too hard.
 
Last edited:
jordane93 said:
Really? Ditch the CFI after 10 hours because the student had an off day?
Click to expand...
I see where you're coming from and we're only hearing one side, but still seems like a little harsh to me that the cfi canceled the following day. Wouldn't it be better to debrief, take a step back and give the guy some basic stuff to prepare for for the next day?
 
exncsurfer said:
I see where you're coming from and we're only hearing one side, but still seems like a little harsh to me that the cfi canceled the following day. Wouldn't it be better to debrief, take a step back and give the guy some basic stuff to prepare for for the next day?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Maybe not cancel the lesson but instead of flying, do some ground and do exactly what you said and debrief on what went right and what went wrong.
 
Brain, it sounds like you need a new CFI. Not because he's been feeding you rope to hang yourself (my CFI does that.) You need a new CFI because he has very few hours. At minimum he should not have allowed a botched stall recovery to develop into a spin. You're CFI shouldn't be some kid trying to build hours. He should be a mid-career or retired pilot.
 
Matt Brasher said:
Brain, it sounds like you need a new CFI. Not because he's been feeding you rope to hang yourself (my CFI does that.) You need a new CFI because he has very few hours. At minimum he should not have allowed a botched stall recovery to develop into a spin. You're CFI shouldn't be some kid trying to build hours. He should be a mid-career or retired pilot.
Click to expand...
I got my CFI with less than 300 hours and was 21. If no one gave me a shot, I'd still be at 300! I've let my students almost get the plane into a spin. I use it as a teaching moment. Of course, if I'm teaching stalls for the first time I'm not going to let them happen but if I see they're not using their feet and uncoordinated and we've practiced stalls repeatedly, I won't say anything and let the spin develop. Nowadays, there are very few paths to an airline. One of them is instructing. I gave all my students plenty of notice that I'd be leaving. I'd set up a new instructor to take over and tell them what they needed to know about the student and I'd have them meet before I left.
 
Last edited:
I guess I'll be the contrarian here regarding young CFIs:p

We have great CFI's in my area (El Paso). When I bought the Tiger, I needed transition training from near San Antonio to my area El Paso. Jordan was the only CFI available and the pickup site was FletchAIR NW of San Antionio. When I asked his age, he paused briefly and asked if it was going to be a problem. I told him not from my end. He responded, just turned 20. His background: started flying with family at 8, gliders and his license for that at minimum age. PPL and IR on the same day as soon as he was able, and a ton of time since. This CFI could fly and demonstrate like an old fighter pilot AND knew every system on the Tiger down pat without reviewing (G530, stormscope, etc.). He was very easy going' humble and relaxed. He also had two small food businesses he opened as an entrepreneur while attending college - all this and not 21 yet. I only needed 5 hours transition for insurance, but I'd fly with him anytime if he was local ... he has a ton of knowledge and would be great for flight reviews if your near San Antonio.
 
We want more young people to get involved with aviation then when they do, we kick them to curb and say bahhhhhh you're too young to be teaching me how to fly.
 
I usually get along best with younger CFI's (I'm younger) with few exceptions. I find them to be the most relaxed and easy-going and I learn best from that type of person. So 95% of the time I'd take the younger low-time CFI.
 
brianread87 said:
it's a program for veteran students. we have to get our CFI in 21 month. PPL in 6 month, instrument in 6 and commercial for the rest. looks like the school is preparing us to get ppl for the minimum 40 hours, i maybe wrong, but I'm definitely the one need more than 70 hours for ppl or so. my CFI have five student. 3 of them are already soloed, and now i feel like im a dumbXXX. i need to make a change.
Click to expand...
I think that if I were in your shoes, I would not worry about the school's timetable. I would plan on getting however far along I was able to get in whatever time the veteran's program pays for, and plan on paying out of my own pocket for whatever time it takes to finish up. That way I would still be better off than if I had to pay for all of it myself, and I could concentrate on quality of learning instead of rushing through it. And if you find an instructor who is able to work with you more effectively, so much the better.
 
Not much of a choice around here, about 99% of CFI or CFII's are college students working towards hours.

Now that I want to work on my IFR it's really bad trying to get time with the same CFII. That's if their still around 1 month later. So I'll start, stop start with a new CFII repeating a few lessons so the new CFII can see how proficient I am. I have since stopped because the waste of money. I stopped in the FBO last month and 3 gone 3 new guys. I'll start up when I can find a "older" CFII or one not in college, that will be around long enough.
 
I've had a few CFIs.

The best, most thorough and safety-minded one that actually forced me to think, was a 22 year old kid.

The worst one was a 30 year veteran who definitely knew his stuff, but he was on cruise control and just wanted to get his weekly salary.

Not all of the young ones are bad:)
 
superdad said:
Not much of a choice around here, about 99% of CFI or CFII's are college students working towards hours.

Now that I want to work on my IFR it's really bad trying to get time with the same CFII. That's if their still around 1 month later. So I'll start, stop start with a new CFII repeating a few lessons so the new CFII can see how proficient I am. I have since stopped because the waste of money. I stopped in the FBO last month and 3 gone 3 new guys. I'll start up when I can find a "older" CFII or one not in college, that will be around long enough.
Click to expand...
You might want to consider PIC. They send you an instrument instructor who is dedicated exclusively to you for ten days, culminating in your taking the checkride.

http://www.iflyifr.com/
 
Matt Brasher said:
Brain, it sounds like you need a new CFI because he has very few hours. At minimum he should not have allowed a botched stall recovery to develop into a spin.
Click to expand...

This is utterly ridiculous. First, Brian said a power-on stall almost developed into a spin. Sounds like par for the course to me. The student has to learn how to prevent spins as the instructor isn't always going to be there to save the day. That is the whole point of training and you are missing it.
 
Many people "think" they've "almost spun." I doubt that was the case. Just because a wing drops doesn't mean the airplane is going into a spin. It's pretty hard to get 172's to spin even if you're trying.

Nothing wrong with spins and almost spins as other instructors pointed out. They're learning tools provided they are not otherwise prohibited. UNINTENTIONALLY allowing even a STALL is bad news but if the instructor is intentionally allowing a student to stall (including secondary stalls) or enter incipient or actual spins, it could be an effective learning tool. Frankly, I've seen instructors (my wife's was one) who never even let students get into fully developed STALLS but insisted that they recover at the very first sign that the stall was happening. I demo'd a few let the nose drop in the 172 to my wife before she went on her checkride which was probably a good thing.
 
As a brand new student, this is an interesting topic for me.

Had my first lesson Saturday, I didn't think I did well at all. Behind everything, incorrect control inputs, too much input, overcorrections, couldn't do anything right. At one point my CFI said he was going to tie my hands down if I didn't lay off the ailerons. He was joking, I think.

He's an older fellow (And I'm 57 myself), and he's highly experienced. At this point, his teaching style seems to be to tell me to do something, let me mess it up, then tell me I was wrong. Doesn't seem to be too big on positive reinforcement. But, I think maybe he has a few tricks up his sleeve. At one point he told me to ignore the ailerons, trim the nose very slightly up and just control the aircraft with my thumb in the center of the yoke and the rudder. Amazing how easy that was! I sure wouldn't say the light bulb went on, but maybe that was a faint flicker.

When we were done I was pretty discouraged. Told him I thought if he left the plane out in the sun, maybe the heat would relax the indentations I left in the yoke from gripping it so hard. He had been pretty abrupt with me on some of his corrections, so I also told him I hoped he had just been aggravated, because if that wasn't it, he was probably terrified. He laughed, and said I did fine. And when I read his notes later, he did say "Good job mastering the airplane". (Or maybe he's just trying to make me feel better. lol.)

SO, even though it seems like right now I'll never get the hang of it, maybe there's hope. But if I don't, or can't, get it, I sure hope he'll give me his honest opinion.

Next lesson tomorrow!
 
It was only your first lesson. Don't worry about it. It takes awhile as everything is so foreign to you. Every student I ever had tried to steer with the yoke for the first lesson or two. You've driven vehicles that way so it's just something different. You'll get there. Hopefully you're taking at least two lessons a week. That's one of the things that will help you progress. Letting 2-3 weeks go between lessons will cause you to regress and you may actually have to repeat lessons you've done already. Good luck!
 
mscard88 said:
It was only your first lesson. Don't worry about it. It takes awhile as everything is so foreign to you. Every student I ever had tried to steer with the yoke for the first lesson or two. You've driven vehicles that way so it's just something different. You'll get there. Hopefully you're taking at least two lessons a week. That's one of the things that will help you progress. Letting 2-3 weeks go between lessons will cause you to regress and you may actually have to repeat lessons you've done already. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement!

And I think your point relating to trying to steer like a car is spot on. I seemed to struggle grasping and 'feeling' the concept of a shallow bank requires holding a little aileron input, but in a medium bank neutralizing controls and the turn will hold. I thought to myself, "This is NOT how you drive a car!"

Scheduled for two lessons a week, looking forward to seeing what I've retained from the first one!
 
Volitation said:
Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement!

And I think your point relating to trying to steer like a car is spot on. I seemed to struggle grasping and 'feeling' the concept of a shallow bank requires holding a little aileron input, but in a medium bank neutralizing controls and the turn will hold. I thought to myself, "This is NOT how you drive a car!"

Scheduled for two lessons a week, looking forward to seeing what I've retained from the first one!
Click to expand...

Wait until you start dealing with cross wind taxi directions. You are using your feet to turn the plane on the taxiway, and using the yoke in a possibly totally opposite direction to make sure the ailerons and elevator are in the correct position. The first time it feels like learning to juggle, and then like everything else you will be taught it becomes second nature.
 
Volitation said:
Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement!

And I think your point relating to trying to steer like a car is spot on. I seemed to struggle grasping and 'feeling' the concept of a shallow bank requires holding a little aileron input, but in a medium bank neutralizing controls and the turn will hold. I thought to myself, "This is NOT how you drive a car!"

Scheduled for two lessons a week, looking forward to seeing what I've retained from the first one!
Click to expand...

I never liked that way of thinking anyways regarding the ailerons.

I've seen this phrase and it's true: "Make the airplane do what you want." Don't worry too much about whether you're doing a shallow bank, medium banks, steep bank, etc. If you want to bank more then turn the yoke more, or vice versa. Over analyzing it won't help.

Analogous to learning to drive: no one specifically said that you turn the wheel less at higher speeds, right? Maybe it was covered once in driver's ed but you don't consciously think about it while driving. You just do it. If your sliding left, you add more right steering wheel input...not consciously thinking about how much you're moving it.

Another helpful tip: don't think about how much you're moving the control devices but go by pressure. IE: More right rudder pressure during takeoff or more right aileron pressure in a bank.

Also, you will suck at flying at first or some point during your training and you will think "I should just quit because no one has ever had this much trouble before". Just ignore that thought and move on. Everyone struggles with certain parts. For your first lesson to be behind the plane is entirely normal. You'll know when you really scare the instructor because he won't just correct you, he'll flat out rip the yoke out of your hands with such force you didn't realize there was a gorilla in the right seat.
 
Never. As an example, I had an older gentlemen that was dropped by four CFI's. He had 35 hours & had never soloed. He was a nervous Norris.
I knew the last instructor he had flown with so I called the instructor for his opinion. He told me not to waste my time. I sat down with the student & told him I could teach him to fly & would stick with him as long as he realized it would take time & money. He wished to proceed. His goal was to get his license so he could rent occasionally & just fly around local.

On the first few flights we just flew around. I put no stress or demands on him. We just went sight seeing & I sat fairly silent. Once he had my trust & was relaxed with me we gently began to train. He progressed slowly at first & was quite jittery but soon calmed down. He was thrilled when he soloed & that seemed to build his confidence. At around 120 hours he passed his private check ride & became a regular renter of our 172.

It gave me great pride when he earned his license & convinced me that anyone can learn but some students need extra time & TLC.

I owned an FBO at the time so I needed all the renters I could get. I felt totally comfortable renting him my pristine 1976 172. This took place in 1993.
 
saddletramp said:
On the first few flights we just flew around. I put no stress or demands on him. We just went sight seeing & I sat fairly silent. Once he had my trust & was relaxed with me we gently began to train. He progressed slowly at first & was quite jittery but soon calmed down. He was thrilled when he soloed & that seemed to build his confidence. At around 120 hours he passed his private check ride & became a regular renter of our 172.
Click to expand...

See - that is a good instructor. I used to teach a couple college level courses in my field and it was always a source of pride when I could reach those hard-to-reach students, especially the ones who had already failed the same course under a different instructor. If one of my students was struggling and unable to grasp something, I didn't just give up on them, shame them for not understanding or simply let them fail. I would try different techniques or ways of explaining until eventually something clicked. Yes, there were a couple that I just wanted to shake and scream, WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET THIS ALREADY!!! But thankfully I didn't, and it was a good lesson in patience for me ;)

There isn't a one size fits all here. You have to feel your student out and cater to their learning style. How old you are, how experienced you are... those aren't the things that make you a good or bad instructor. What makes you a good or bad instructor is your ability to mold to your student's needs, as well as to be calm, encouraging, and patient. If you don't have those qualities and your students are leaving frustrated all the time, then maybe you should either find another job or find another way to make your 1,500 hr quota.
 
Volitation said:
Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement!

And I think your point relating to trying to steer like a car is spot on. I seemed to struggle grasping and 'feeling' the concept of a shallow bank requires holding a little aileron input, but in a medium bank neutralizing controls and the turn will hold. I thought to myself, "This is NOT how you drive a car!"

Scheduled for two lessons a week, looking forward to seeing what I've retained from the first one!
Click to expand...
My CFI's favorite instruction for the first few weeks was 'stop driving the car!'
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
There isn't a one size fits all here. You have to feel your student out and cater to their learning style. How old you are, how experienced you are... those aren't the things that make you a good or bad instructor. What makes you a good or bad instructor is your ability to mold to your student's needs, as well as to be calm, encouraging, and patient. If you don't have those qualities and your students are leaving frustrated all the time, then maybe you should either find another job or find another way to make your 1,500 hr quota.
Click to expand...

MIj6o.gif
 
Letting a stall turn into a spin, depends on the aircraft and loading.

If she's rigged and certified for spins, you tell the student to do the right corrections, demo it properly and walk him through it and he just isn't getting the importance, sure I'd let him get into a spin, after 2 rotations recover and discuss, follow that up with a falling leaf stall, a intentional spin, then some normal power on and off stalls.

Learning from mistakes is important, letting a student take a plane to a point they have near zero chance of recovery before YOU recover it for them, well that's being a good CFI.

Still based on what the OP said, I'm not sure that's the case with his CFI, I'd go fly with someone a little more experienced, or at least skilled at stick and rudder and teaching. Ask around he airport for who they recommend.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top