CFII Rating

BrianNC

BrianNC

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So those that have the CFII, how difficult is that rating? I imagine you should know instrument rules backwards and forward. Do you have do demonstrate flying under the hood from the right seat as well as instruct the DPE while they are under the hood?

Also, how does the length of the oral compare to the CFI? I would be doing this as an initial rating as I wouldn't care to do primary instruction. I have no interest in a CFI. Any other info or advice would be appreciated.

Oh, one more thing. What writtens do you have to pass? I did teach at a Bible college for many years. I had read it seems at some point if you're a teacher or were a teacher you don't have to take the FOI?
 
BrianNC said:
Oh, one more thing. What writtens do you have to pass? I did teach at a Bible college for many years. I had read it seems at some point if you're a teacher or were a teacher you don't have to take the FOI?
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ETA: Evidently a person who has a flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating but no class rating can since 2018 do instrument flight instruction so long as they have the correct ratings on their pilot certificate (see FAR 16.195(c)) H/T @Wheels .

You would have to pass the FOI first and then CFII written. Only holders of a teaching certificate from the state or current professors at higher educational institutions are exempt from this requirement. FAR 61.183(e)2-3.

If you just want to do ground instruction on instrument, you could just do the FOI and IGI written tests.
 
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BrianNC said:
I did teach at a Bible college for many years. I had read it seems at some point if you're a teacher or were a teacher you don't have to take the FOI?
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Look at §61.185(e), (2) and/or (3)
 
The FOI is easy test. I doubt it’s even worth it to try and skip the test. Showing up for the check ride not conforming to what the examiner normally sees is like being a weasel in a box that has a hammer hanging from the side.

I don’t remember the instrument instructor rating being ominous at all. But I’m getting old enough and far enough away from that checking event my answer is probably worth about what you paid.
 
BrianNC said:
Yeah, not current so I'd have to take that test. Haven't taught in about 7 years now.
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Then you can have the (cough) pleasure of studying the FAA’s “Flight Instructor’s Handbook”. I found it a very annoying book because they treat many subjects in the theory of teaching at a very abstract level without really connecting to concretes. So very difficult to integrate into your other knowledge of teaching - especially if you have prior experience.

One can of course just kill and drill it to pass the test and then know enough to pass the practical, if you go the CFII route.
 
OOT - I believe the CFII written and the IGI written are nearly the same question bank. So if you are going to do one, you may just want to do the other.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
OOT - I believe the CFII written and the IGI written are nearly the same question bank. So if you are going to do one, you may just want to do the other.
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95% same... used Sheppard Air to study and the quantity of questions shows a few more for the CFII
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Yes. And once you have the latter two you can fill out the application and take it to the FSDO and get your instrument ground instructor certificate!
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Easy stretch goal to have the AGI done too.

With COVID19 and all, getting to the FSDO to have them approve your ground instructor certificates can be iffy. You can also have a DPE do it
 
BrianNC said:
Difference in IGI and AGI? Do you need both for the CFII?
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AGI allows you to teach ground school for private and commercial pilot topics

IGI allows you to teach ground school on Instrument Pilot topics.

You don’t need either for Flight Instructor. But, if you do hold them, there are a few small perks such as they never expire, can provide ability to earn income at a flight school by teaching the ground courses,......
 
The good news is the FOI is only taken once if you bring a current written or the Ground Instructor certificate to the practical test. They can (and most likely will) still quiz you about the FOI as part of the CFII oral even with an IGI.

Unlike the IGI and CFII which are essentially the same test, but you have to take them twice: once for IGI and once for CFII.


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I did both ground instructor tests in parallel with studying for cfi and CFII. I did not do any extra study for the ground tests. Just took them and easily passed. Might not ever need them but it’s just two more test fees at that point. No reason not to do them at the same time.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The FOI is easy test. I doubt it’s even worth it to try and skip the test. Showing up for the check ride not conforming to what the examiner normally sees is like being a weasel in a box that has a hammer hanging from the side.
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I'm in a bit of an unusual situation in this regard where I'm looking to skip the FOI exam. Recently, a 1 credit FOI course was added to the program for the associates degree I'm working on (professional pilot airplane). The FOI course is a pre/co-requisite for the required CFI flight training course, but since FOI is a new course at the college they don't yet offer it online. The FOI course is only offered at times that I am not available for due to my work schedule. Fortunately, I have a State teaching certification which should exempt me from the FOI exam and as a result, the FOI course. As I understand it, I'll still need to study the FOI materials so I'm prepared for the CFI checkride.
 
BrianNC said:
So those that have the CFII, how difficult is that rating? I imagine you should know instrument rules backwards and forward. Do you have do demonstrate flying under the hood from the right seat as well as instruct the DPE while they are under the hood?

Also, how does the length of the oral compare to the CFI? I would be doing this as an initial rating as I wouldn't care to do primary instruction. I have no interest in a CFI. Any other info or advice would be appreciated.

Oh, one more thing. What writtens do you have to pass? I did teach at a Bible college for many years. I had read it seems at some point if you're a teacher or were a teacher you don't have to take the FOI?
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i did the double i as an add on to cfi, so the oral was abbreviated. As an initial cfi rating, you will probably have a 3-4 hr oral exam.

yes, you will need to be able to teach/fly under the hood from right seat.

download the flight instructor PTS to see what they’ll test you on.

FOI and FII writtens required.

its a challenge, but well worth it.
 
BrianNC said:
Also, how does the length of the oral compare to the CFI? I would be doing this as an initial rating
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More than likely the length of the oral and checkride will be the same for a Flight Instructor-Instrument or a Flight Instructor-Airplane S.E. as your initial.
 
If CFII you should expect it to be very similar in length and depth to the CFI, just different topics. All add-on ratings are more abbreviated as is the list of tasks requried.

I would question what you are going to do with the CFII, if you aren't going to do cfi airplane?
 
texasclouds said:
no commercial, so can’t charge for the instruction??
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That was 52 years ago..............and I "think" the regs have changed. At that time you only needed the "knowledge" of a commercial pilot. Passing the written was enough for that.

I suppose one could have charged without the commercial. Since you are being paid to instruct..not fly. Moot point now.
 
If you are doing the CFII as your initial instructor rating, you will have the full on checkride. The II is only easier if you already have your CFI and are doing it as an add-on.
 
kgruber said:
That was 52 years ago..............and I "think" the regs have changed. At that time you only needed the "knowledge" of a commercial pilot. Passing the written was enough for that.

I suppose one could have charged without the commercial. Since you are being paid to instruct..not fly. Moot point now.
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in light of this new information we regret to inform you that we will have to revoke your Wright Brothers award. :)
 
BrianNC said:
So those that have the CFII, how difficult is that rating? I imagine you should know instrument rules backwards and forward. Do you have do demonstrate flying under the hood from the right seat as well as instruct the DPE while they are under the hood?
Click to expand...

It's all in the PTS!

Also, how does the length of the oral compare to the CFI? I would be doing this as an initial rating as I wouldn't care to do primary instruction. I have no interest in a CFI. Any other info or advice would be appreciated.
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Variable depending on the applicant's knowledge level and ability to efficiently utilize relevant FAA publications. A statement I make during nearly every flight instructor add-on rating practical test is: "You are the disambiguator of information." The expectation is that an applicant wishing to add an instrument rating onto his or her flight instructor certificate will be able to demonstrate instructional knowledge of instrument flying. That includes untangling "complicated" IFR regulations and guidance so that the applicant's learner (formerly "student") is able to fly safely and proficiently without lingering confusion. Referencing materials when immediate knowledge isn't present in mind is acceptable... to a point. Inability to navigate/reference the publications will result in a Notice of Disapproval. As a result I would say as a general recommendation that all applicants should be very comfortable retrieving information from Part 61, 91, the AIM, the IFH, the IPH, relevant ACs, the POH/AFM including supplements as necessary, etc.
 
texasclouds said:
no commercial, so can’t charge for the instruction??
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Sure he can. He is being paid to teach, not fly. The Commercial is just a requirement that the feds thought you needed to get the certificate, not that you needed it to actually teach.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Evidently a person who has a flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating but no class rating cannot do flight instruction but only ground instruction.
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That changed in 2018, § 61.195(c)(1) allows an instrument-only flight instructor to conduct instrument training in an aircraft (other than multiengine airplanes) provided the instructor and the pilot receiving instrument training hold category and class ratings on their pilot certificates that are applicable to the aircraft in which the instrument training is accomplished.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Easy stretch goal to have the AGI done too.
With COVID19 and all, getting to the FSDO to have them approve your ground instructor certificates can be iffy. You can also have a DPE do it
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I believe they have to have the Ground Instructor Examiner (GIE) authority. I found it hard to find people with that other than at the FSDO.
 
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If someone is proficient at instrument flying, and is an active CFI, the CFII checkride should be pretty simple. It was one of my easier checkrides, although I was definitely current and proficient in both instrument flying and CFI-ing.

However, as you're neither, I'd expect it to be just as hard as any other initial CFI ride, except you will have to teach topics about approaches instead of stalls and steep turns and such.
 
BrianNC said:
So those that have the CFII, how difficult is that rating? I imagine you should know instrument rules backwards and forward. Do you have do demonstrate flying under the hood from the right seat as well as instruct the DPE while they are under the hood?

Also, how does the length of the oral compare to the CFI? I would be doing this as an initial rating as I wouldn't care to do primary instruction. I have no interest in a CFI. Any other info or advice would be appreciated.

Oh, one more thing. What writtens do you have to pass? I did teach at a Bible college for many years. I had read it seems at some point if you're a teacher or were a teacher you don't have to take the FOI?
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t expect an easier oral and teaching procedures for the instrument practical right seat under hood.
 
BrianNC said:
Teach for the instrument rating of course.
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With a couple hundred hours of dual given in single engine airplanes, I can count the instrument students on one hand, primary students on the other, and still have fingers left over on both. Most of it was IPCs, which you would be able to do, but most of the IPCs included flight reviews and/or aircraft checkouts for exactly the same training, which you wouldn’t and/or probably wouldn’t be able to do.

Not saying you’ll be less busy than whatever you want to be instructing, but the CFIA has a lot more value than just teaching primaries.
 
MauleSkinner said:
but the CFIA has a lot more value than just teaching primaries
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I’m just crossing 35 hours of dual provided and I will give a big AMEN about the value to my personal level of knowledge and skill that I am exercising as I instruct
 
There's additional value now for the CFI-IA ("CFII" as it is commonly called) thanks to the modern version of 14 CFR 61.195. Anecdotally, however, I would have to say that in my experience -- which is regionalized to some degree -- active/working instructors lacking a class rating on their Flight Instructor certificate are as rare as hen's teeth. Maybe you foresee a path which includes teaching in your own aircraft, or a flying club which will allow this activity under said circumstances, but I believe you'll find the lack of an ASE rating on the flight instructor certificate to be incompatible with most flight schools and possibly some prospective students. Consider the possible perspective of the learner -- choose between a CFI-ASE-IA or a CFI-IA only, the latter of which is rare. It could be a bit of an uphill battle, but then again maybe you have a path which makes sense to you. Just pointing out some possible considerations.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Not saying you’ll be less busy than whatever you want to be instructing, but the CFIA has a lot more value than just teaching primaries.
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I'll echo this. Having just the CFII is extremely limiting - instrument ratings and IPCs, that's it. No commercial applicants, aircraft checkouts, flight reviews, avionics transition training, etc., etc.

If you plan to get the CFII first and then follow with the CFI-A, that's fine, and valuable. But to just have your CFII rating is, I think, short-sighted. You don't have to do primary instruction if you don't want to.
 
All good points about getting the CFI too. I was thinking maybe along the lines of getting an airplane as @Ryan F. said and offering accelerated instruction since I didn't care to do primary. But being able to do checkouts, flight reviews, etc, is a good point too.
 
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