Accordingto the Cessnas2Oshkosh web site, their mass arrival to Oshkosh was cancelled by the FAA, and then they were able to negotiate a limited arrival during negotiations over the past few months. Anyone know what happened that got the FAA involved?
Cessnas2Oshkosh - FAA situation?
- Thread starter wsquare
- Start date
midwestpa24
Final Approach
All I know is what I've read elsewhere, but it sounds like it wasn't one specific incident but just many close calls and the general culture and operation of C2O that was raising a lot of red flags and safety questions.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2010
- Messages
- 1,192
- Display Name
Display name:
Llewtrah
From a very good but secondary source, it sounded like it was more about the EAA than the FAA. In fact, it sounded like “mid-levels” at the EAA were on a phone call w the Cessna leadership and Pelton walked in and calmed things down.
Although the FAA wasn’t happy with them getting their landing clearance before the last plane had taken off from Juneau a few years ago, it sounded like it was EAA relations that drove this stuff lately.
Although the FAA wasn’t happy with them getting their landing clearance before the last plane had taken off from Juneau a few years ago, it sounded like it was EAA relations that drove this stuff lately.
bflynn
Final Approach
From the C2O website, it was the FAA and EAA saved them.
http://www.cessnas2oshkosh.com/1520home.aspx
http://www.cessnas2oshkosh.com/1520home.aspx
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2010
- Messages
- 1,192
- Display Name
Display name:
Llewtrah
That’s their spin but I KNOW that’s very incomplete. But, yeah, technically, it sounds like Pelton saved them from others within EAA who were not happy with the group, so I guess it depends on who we call “EAA”.
Regardless, their procedures were to sequence out the slowest (C150’s) first, then faster and faster groups in batches - up to twins. In 2021 the planes at the head had gotten their landing clearance before a good number of later planes had even left the ground - apparently because a “non-participating” plane tied up the runway between batches back at KUNU, 35nm away. Understandably, the FAA wasn’t happy. Remember: the Fisk is closed until the entire group gets on the deck. On Saturday afternoon. For the first show after Covid.
The next year they were told by the FAA they wouldn’t be given a landing clearance for the Flight until all of them were airborne from KUNU. In all their years of existence (and having participated in a few of their clinics), I don’t believe they had ever refined processes for getting the Flight to turn - certainly any more than maybe a turn from Base to Final on 27 or something.
I realize much of what I’m passing on is second hand but the “first hand” is about as authoritative as one can get on the org side.
Add: despite FAA having legitimate issues, it sounds like the EAA Ops people were the ones who had had their fill of other things of which I’m far less aware.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,840
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
It is good and bad, right? Yes, when the mass arrivals come, it shuts down some or all of the runways for others. But it can be a very efficient way to bring a large number of aircraft into the field. So, you get 150 airplanes on one runway in 30 mintues. (making those numbers up).
There probably isn't a non-mass arrival way to get that many aircraft to Oshkosh using that little runway time, so <effectively> they are freeing up runway time compared to arriving one at a time.
bflynn
Final Approach
Doesn't it shut down the airport when mass arrivals come in? Everyone at Fisk starts holding until they're done doing their thing.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,840
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
It seems like the protocol has changed over the years. Most recently, it does seem like they shut down the whole thing for the mass arrivals. But in 2019 (?) which was one of the years when the first Saturday was a weather mess and the field was very wet/flooded, we landed on 27 while C2O arrived on 36.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,840
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
It gives the Cessna folks something to do and keeps 150 Cessnas from clogging up the Fisk arrival for 3 hours.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
IMO the same can be said of any of the spam can arrivals be it Cessna, Bonanza, Piper, or Mooney so not sure exactly what point you’re trying to make. For me it’s just an annoyance I have to plan around.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,840
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
Worse, it is an annoyance that has a scheduled time, but frequently doesn't hit the window, so not only is the field (or at least a runway) unavailable for the published slot, the window is extended or moved and the "runway denial" period grows.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
I hear ya. One of the reasons we started coming in on Friday was trying to schedule our IFR arrival became a PITA because of the mass arrivals on Saturday. Not happy in the least to hear the Cessnas are moving to Friday now.
