Carrier landing in an emergency?

[Fearless Tower]

The tower on a carrier isn't manned unless flight operations are going on. If a recovery is in progress, good luck feeding yourself into the pattern. If the recovery is not in progress, the flight deck will not be clear. That is a storage area and normally only cleared out for recoveries. Unless the carrier was already on alert you would arrive mostly unnoticed..

Tower is going to be the least of your worries. You are still going to be talking to someone in CDC/CIC first. If it is a bona fide emergency and the CO does give the okay for you to land, they will clear the traffic out just like a land based airport would.

But you are correct about the deck likely being fouled if flight ops are not in progress.

But in reality, by far the safest thing to do would be to ditch nearby the carrier. If it were me, I would fly overhead the carrier to get its attention and ditch ahead and slightly offset. That way the crew would be ready to help instead of potentially considering you a threat.

As far as landing on the carrier, I am willing to bet the large majority of pilots would land long and dribble off the end. That would be way worse than a controlled ditch.

I'd agree with this. Unless they rig the barricade for you, I think you are simply better ditching next to the ship than taking your chances hoping you make it on the deck safely.

 

[Velocity173]

Aren't we going with the "floating deck in the harbor" scenario?

 

[oilburner]

In good conditions under no pressure one can. Under stress, maybe not optimal wind direction, etc.? Roll of the dice.

Don't forget that your runway may be in motion. This should help?

 

[petrolero]

I was assuming a functioning engine, because it just wouldn't work engine out. No way. Everyone here seems to assume the carrier will be making 20+ knots, but that is unlikely. They don't typically just steam around that fast and aren't necessarily even pointing into any wind. If the ship is making wind, it can create some pretty crazy wind currents behind it. Enough to balloon, then dump a 50,000# fighter. Landing a small plane on a carrier is possible. Landing one during an emergency for the first time ever when the ship is not set up to bring you aboard, would be essentially impossible. Much safer option would be to ditch.

Yeah I don't see it happening engine out. Far too many variables would have to be just right for it to work out successfully.

Your point about the carrier not making 20+ knots is valid - they could be going slow or doing other maneuvers that are totally incompatible with landings. They could be heading downwind for all the engine-out pilot knows. Even if you could radio them they're not going to just suddenly change course - possibly of an entire carrier battle group!

 

[Cooter]

Tower is going to be the least of your worries. If it is a bona fide emergency and the CO does give the okay for you to land, they will clear the traffic out just like a land based airport would.

If anyone was to land, they'd have to do it unannounced. There's no way authorization would be given or a pattern would be cleared out. That would be setting up multiple fuel diverts and a host of other problems.

This is one of those things best realized on a flight simulator. But if anyone wanted to take a rough shot at simulating it, I'd say go out at night in a remote area (with no surrounding or ambient lighting) on a windy night and do a simulated engine failure on a small field and try to touch down w/n 100 ft of your initial aim point. It is hard to simulate the lack of depth perception that occurs over water, but that would take away some of the visual cues.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If anyone was to land, they'd have to do it unannounced. There's no way authorization would be given or a pattern would be cleared out. That would be setting up multiple fuel diverts and a host of other problems.

I agree that it (getting the approval) is unlikely....but it really isn't THAT hard to clear the pattern for an emergency.

You are making it sound waaay more difficult than it is. Think about if it was a military asset than declared an emergency. We aren't going to tell them to just eject because we can't interfere with the Air Plan.

It would make an interesting cartoon though...

 

[jkaduk]

When Redbull was in San Diego they launched one off the Midway.

 

[Cooter]

I agree that it (getting the approval) is unlikely....but it really isn't THAT hard to clear the pattern for an emergency.

You are making it sound waaay more difficult than it is. Think about if it was a military asset than declared an emergency. We aren't going to tell them to just eject because we can't interfere with the Air Plan.

It would make an interesting cartoon though...

It actually is pretty difficult, and it would certainly never happen for any aircraft not attached to that carrier. The daytime pattern is more like a drain emptying than a regular traffic pattern. There are no gaps in the pattern once the first aircraft starts down, and each successive aircraft should trap within 15-20 seconds of the previous aircraft clearing the landing area. There aren't airplanes just out flying around that decide to come in and land. The ship always trains to recover in the minimum amount of time, and any delay does not go unnoticed.

But, one of the biggest issues is that all the recovering aircraft have planned their fuel to land with very little extra remaining. In some situations, some fighters will only land with enough gas to go around for one more attempt. So any significant delay is going to put a lot of jets in a bind very quickly. I've been part of a "99, Everybody Divert!!" and it is pretty uncomfortable to have 12-14 aircraft all leave the same piece of sky pointed to the same piece of ground without any coordination. Carrier tower is not ATC, and the ships controllers don't sequence arrivals/departures the way any land based airfield does. Anytime they are asked to usually results in a circus.

BTW, for emergency aircraft on the carrier, they would typically be diverted if they can. If not, they will be recovered separately from the others, and preferably last if the emergency permits. Fouling a carrier deck can quickly turn into a nightmare and is one of the problems that is managed routinely when the Air Wing is aboard at sea. It is most often managed by minimizing the potential for one aircraft to mess it up for everyone else.

 

[wilkersk]

For you to attempt to land on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier anytime except as a qualified carrier pilot during normal flight operations would place too many bystanders in danger. It would be grossly negligent act and would be treated as such IMHO. (operation Frequent Wind aside).

 

[Fearless Tower]

It actually is pretty difficult, and it would certainly never happen for any aircraft not attached to that carrier. The daytime pattern is more like a drain emptying than a regular traffic pattern. There are no gaps in the pattern once the first aircraft starts down, and each successive aircraft should trap within 15-20 seconds of the previous aircraft clearing the landing area. There aren't airplanes just out flying around that decide to come in and land. The ship always trains to recover in the minimum amount of time, and any delay does not go unnoticed.

But, one of the biggest issues is that all the recovering aircraft have planned their fuel to land with very little extra remaining. In some situations, some fighters will only land with enough gas to go around for one more attempt. So any significant delay is going to put a lot of jets in a bind very quickly. I've been part of a "99, Everybody Divert!!" and it is pretty uncomfortable to have 12-14 aircraft all leave the same piece of sky pointed to the same piece of ground without any coordination. Carrier tower is not ATC, and the ships controllers don't sequence arrivals/departures the way any land based airfield does. Anytime they are asked to usually results in a circus.

No argument that it is difficult, but not impossible. And if the CO decides to accept the risk, it's going to happen.

Using the OP's example of a ferry pilot emergency on the way to Hawaii, here is how I see this going down:

Pilot squawks 7700 and makes distress call on IAD/Guard. He talks to some OS3 who relays the distress to the TAO. TAO calls CO and explains the situation.

Now I do believe there are actually some COs out there that would say "let's figure out how to recover this guy"....but I think its maybe a 10 percent (or less) of the CO's in the fleet.

More than likely, the CO is going to immediately call Air Boss and ask for his input on whether or not it can be done. I'd say it is at least a 99.9% chance that Boss is going to say "Hell NO!".....and list all of the reasons that you have mentioned above.

 

[azpilot]

Taking this purely as a hypothetical:
If I was having a true emergency, and
If my only options were a carrier and the ocean, and
If the carrier deck was clear and free of obstructions, and
If I had no way to communicate (i.e. no radios or electrical failure), and
If I had some reasonable level of certainty they would not shoot at me

Then I would attempt to land on the carrier, and I would expect that the FAA would not have a problem with it. I would also expect the Navy to react in a way that would not be very pleasant for me. I would however expect that once all the explanations were done, I would be exonerated.

There are five "If's" there, and I can't imagine all of them being satisfied in any situation I'll ever be flying in. But, IF they ever are, I'd go for it.

 

[N801BH]

I suspect you will be on the receiving end of a 50 Cal as you approach the deck.

Hmmmm..

Typical answer to scare off the Sheeples......

I am 100% sure I can stick the landing in my plane... Hard part would be to get the deck crew to grab the struts so I didn't take back off in the headwind.. And to walk me and the plane to the elevator so I could get below deck for a refuel...:wink2:

As for the doom and gloom........

For years, the image the SS portrayed was.... DON"T mess with the White House... Till some guy flew a 172 smack into the side of it.. No SAM's, No small arms fire... They didn't even see him coming....

Then , just a couple of years ago a guy jumped the fence, sprinted 800+ feet,,, Ran straight through the front door and got all the way into the dining room before he was caught.....

 

[Shepherd]

I knew I could do it under 200 feet, but he insisted that I prove it to him. So I said, "Watch this".

Some of the best times I ever had in a plane started with those exact words.

 

[Shepherd]

Anyone else remember that you have a minimum of 4 crash nets to go through before you run into anything or run off the deck?
Carriers routinely handle 40,000+ pound aircraft, in all manner of situations. I seriously doubt you could damage a carrier with a C-172 even if you deliberately kamikaze it into the deck.
I also know you can talk to a carrier on a civilian aircraft comm. I used to do carrier flybys using the Eglin Flying Club C-170 and 172. There was always a carrier in Pensacola Bay back in 1971. Ask them nicely, and if the pattern was clear you could fly past and take pictures.

 

[N801BH]

Anyone else remember that you have a minimum of 4 crash nets to go through before you run into anything or run off the deck?
Carriers routinely handle 40,000+ pound aircraft, in all manner of situations. I seriously doubt you could damage a carrier with a C-172 even if you deliberately kamikaze it into the deck.
I also know you can talk to a carrier on a civilian aircraft comm. I used to do carrier flybys using the Eglin Flying Club C-170 and 172. There was always a carrier in Pensacola Bay back in 1971. Ask them nicely, and if the pattern was clear you could fly past and take pictures.

Oh.... The good ol days.....

 

[James331]

I suspect you will be on the receiving end of a 50 Cal as you approach the deck.

So a US registered aircraft in distress would be destroyed and it's pilot murdered?


Good thing they are there protecting us from the terrorists who would want to kill us with 50 cals

 

[Fearless Tower]

So a US registered aircraft in distress would be destroyed and it's pilot murdered?

Well, first you have to operate on the assumption that the average sailor standing watch at a .50 cal these days could actually hit an airplane.

Second, in the open ocean scenario, the crew served weapons aren't manned (and often not even mounted).

 

[N801BH]

Well, first you have to operate on the assumption that the average sailor standing watch at a .50 cal these days could actually hit an airplane.

Second, in the open ocean scenario, the crew served weapons aren't manned (and often not even mounted).

Yup.... Just like the "secured Whitehouse)...

 

[Cooter]

Well, first you have to operate on the assumption that the average sailor standing watch at a .50 cal these days could actually hit an airplane.

And that would most likely be assuming too much.

I wonder why they don't let the Marines handle that?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yup.... Just like the "secured Whitehouse)...

Well, again, no real need for .50 cal out in the open ocean. And you have other weapons that you can use.

Coming in/out of port is a different story.

 

[Palmpilot]

Taking this purely as a hypothetical:
If I was having a true emergency, and
If my only options were a carrier and the ocean, and
If the carrier deck was clear and free of obstructions, and
If I had no way to communicate (i.e. no radios or electrical failure), and
If I had some reasonable level of certainty they would not shoot at me

How would you get certainty as to the last item with no way to communicate?

 

[Palmpilot]

And to walk me and the plane to the elevator so I could get below deck for a refuel...:wink2:

Why would an aircraft carrier have avgas on board?

 

[N801BH]

Why would an aircraft carrier have avgas on board?

I made that statement in regards to the guy saying a flight to Hawaii... As if there was a way to actually schedule a carrier refueling stop.....

Sorry I caused you any confusion....

 

[wilkersk]

Anyone else remember that you have a minimum of 4 crash nets to go through before you run into anything or run off the deck?
Carriers routinely handle 40,000+ pound aircraft, in all manner of situations. I seriously doubt you could damage a carrier with a C-172 even if you deliberately kamikaze it into the deck.
I also know you can talk to a carrier on a civilian aircraft comm. I used to do carrier flybys using the Eglin Flying Club C-170 and 172. There was always a carrier in Pensacola Bay back in 1971. Ask them nicely, and if the pattern was clear you could fly past and take pictures.

In 22 years in the Navy, the only "crash nets" I ever saw was a couple of times I was present when they called the emergency drill to "rig the barricade". Chances are, if you HAD and emergency, and decided to land on an aircraft carrier, and if you managed to get lined up with the deck far enough out that you could avoid the antennas that are sticking up because the ship hasn't lowered them for flight quarters, and you didn't strike the round-down and kill yourself in the crash, chances are you'd hit the mess-cook up on deck getting some air. And, if the ship was at flight quarters and you attempted that, well, good luck!

 

[RyanShort1]

To me, it would also come to the "premeditated" side of things, if you survived the attempt. I mean, now that I've posted in the thread, I figure I'd be better off ditching just in case.
Oh, and if you can't stop a 172 in less than 1000' you need to go practice again. I'm pretty sure I can stop mine in 500' if I try and don't care about rubber.

 

[StinkBug]

When Redbull was in San Diego they launched one off the Midway.

The Midway is a museum, not an active navy vessel.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The Midway is a museum, not an active navy vessel.

I suspect he was just referring to the takeoff distance involved.

 

[flyingron]

I am 100% sure I can stick the landing in my plane... Hard part would be to get the deck crew to grab the struts so I didn't take back off in the headwind..

Actually, this probably wouldn't be all that hard. Making loose things on deck fast is a regular job for them.

And to walk me and the plane to the elevator so I could get below deck for a refuel...:wink2:

Unless you have a Thielert in your plane, finding something to refuel with is going to be the real problem. Not much use for gasoline on a modern carrier.

For years, the image the SS portrayed was.... DON"T mess with the White House... Till some guy flew a 172 smack into the side of it.. No SAM's, No small arms fire... They didn't even see him coming....

It was a 150. Never hit the building. It hit the ground on the lawn (trying to land? Nobody ever determined it) and then collided with a magnolia tree.

 

[flyingron]

Well, first you have to operate on the assumption that the average sailor standing watch at a .50 cal these days could actually hit an airplane.

Second, in the open ocean scenario, the crew served weapons aren't manned (and often not even mounted).

In actuality, for decades it would have been an junior officer operating a gun director. In recent history, we've got automated anti-aircraft targeting.

 

[jsstevens]

[snip]
I once flew with this guy (nevermind the fact that I was a still a student pilot and he was technically a passenger...I'm sure the FAA won't come after me but that's OT) and he asked me to see how short I could land my C-172. I knew I could do it under 200 feet, but he insisted that I prove it to him. So I said, "Watch this".

Oh no you don't! Finish the story!

John

 

[Fearless Tower]

In actuality, for decades it would have been an junior officer operating a gun director. In recent history, we've got automated anti-aircraft targeting.

There are no 'gun directors' for .50 cals. Never have been.

And the modern 'automation' you refer to is great for missiles.....doesn't work for Low Slow Flyers. They have to be manually targeted.

 

[cgrab]

If you get a choice go for the LH's (helo carriers) since they don't have arresting cables across the first third of the deck. Hit those and it will ruin your day. They had them at Langley AFB when I was with the aeroclub there and we were always told to land long as they would damage the gear or possibly the prop if we landed short of them.

 

[mscard88]

They had them at Langley AFB when I was with the aeroclub there and we were always told to land long as they would damage the gear or possibly the prop if we landed short of them.

War story time. I was working Eglin AFB tower when an Aero Club Beech Skipper landed and was taxing slowly over the departure end arresting gear (cable) and one of the donuts got stuck somehow on the left main gear. Instructor and student get out, rock the plane loose, get back in to restart the engine, battery dead. Back out to push the Skipper off to the side of the runway. Wasn't a problem as it was a Saturday and light traffic plus we had the other runway. I knew the CFI and was laughing the whole time.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

And if nobody is expecting you, there's a good chance their security apparatus may opt to use their defensive weapons against you. It's a really bad idea.

9MM handgun & 12ga shotgun, maybe, MAYBE an M-16.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Its not all that hard.

Add 20kts wind across the deck of the carrier and it becomes hard not to do.

10 knots of natural wind + 30 knots of nuclear muscle and you would be dang near taking an elevator to the deck.

 

[Warlock]

Ships Company still had M-14's last time I flew off an LHA in 2004...we thought that was weird being Army Guys

9MM handgun & 12ga shotgun, maybe, MAYBE an M-16.

 

[nauga]

Now I do believe there are actually some COs out there that would say "let's figure out how to recover this guy"....but I think its maybe a 10 percent (or less) of the CO's in the fleet.

...and for CVN's that's what, 1 guy?

Nauga,
NEPAW

 

[jkaduk]

The Midway is a museum, not an active navy vessel.

I suspect he was just referring to the takeoff distance involved.

Indeed.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Ships Company still had M-14's last time I flew off an LHA in 2004...we thought that was weird being Army Guys

In 2001: 9MM, 12ga, M-16's, M-14's, and 50 cal machine guns. Tied up in port in the U.S. the M-16's, M-14's, and 50 cals were typically locked up. In foreign ports there was usually an overwatch with an M-14 up on the island, 9MM and 12ga issued to the watch. M-16's ready for the RRF to use.

 

[bullwinkle]

In good conditions under no pressure one can. Under stress, maybe not optimal wind direction, etc.? Roll of the dice.

The stipulation of the scenario is an emergency. You are already under stress. Outcomes of an emergency are often a roll of the dice. I'd take my chances on a 1000' carrier deck over a forest any day.