Can I really afford a Bonanza / Debonair??

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Johnbo

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Johnbo
I figured I would start a new thread since the subject line of my last one is no longer relevant.

I have previously determined that a 182 fits my mission. But in reading several posts in my last thread it seems that some of the older Bonanzas and Debonairs might as well.

I had not previously considered a Bo (or any complex plane) since I am a low-time pilot and wasn’t sure if I could get insurance, what it would cost and how lengthy are the training requirements to be insured. All other things being equal, I would take a Bo over a 182 in a second so perhaps it is worth considering.

Using google, there are tons of discussions on 182vsBo, some say maintenance on Bo is higher, some say lower, some say equal. There is a bit less info on insurance requirements but the 182 quote I have it is quite reasonable and only requires 1-hour of dual in the 182 making it a non issue.

My current budget criteria are: $75k max spend excluding pre-buy, ferry, etc. for $75k I want A mid-time motor (or newer) on a plane that hasn’t been sitting around idle for years and I want basic, functioning IFR panel so I can use this plane to get my IFR rating. I don’t care too much about paint or interior as long as the plane has been hangared, maintained and is in good shape. What I don’t want is a $70k plane that obviously needs a new motor / prop or has inop IFR systems.

Is this a reasonable expectation for a Bo or Debonair? How bad is my insurance going to be and after how many hours will it drop down to a “normal” rate? Are maintenance costs really any different on average vs a 182 or similar age and condition?

Thx
 
A Bonanza can be had for the money you're discussing. Yes, they will run more for maintenance, since there is retractable gear to maintain as well as the constant speed prop also found on the Skylane. Bo's were made for a very long time, the different models have strengths and weaknesses. Someone will come along and recommend the Bo bible, I neither have nor desire one, so I don't know it. It would be a good idea to get on Beechtalk and start reading, so you own what you're doing when you go to look. Any aircraft can be a cream puff or a money pit.

You will need a minimum of 10 hours of dual to get your complex and high performance endorsements. I wouldn't let that stop you, most folks start out in trainers and step up at some point. The biggest thing to get used to in stepping up to a complex aircraft is just seeing the world go by faster and not getting behind the aircraft. Slick airplanes like the Bo can't just be pointed down, they'll build speed too quickly. They can also be quite a bit busier to take off.

The only proviso I have is I've recently seen scuttlebutt that Textron will no longer make the ruddervators for V tail Bos. That could have a real affect on their value.
 
steingar said:
... The only proviso I have is I've recently seen scuttlebutt that Textron will no longer make the ruddervators for V tail Bos. That could have a real affect on their value.
Click to expand...

Has no RV skins for any models in stock but ‘intends’ to support the fleet. According to Textron execs, “ ...future plans are limited by environmental concerns around the chemical dip process...”. No estimated ship date and no pricing available.

The challenge is that sheet magnesium is used for the skins; aluminum replacements are too heavy to balance properly.

I would not be in the V-tail market today. No such issue for the Debs or straight tails.

There’s plenty of info on BT...search Bad News for V-tails.
 
DSC_0247.jpg plan on $2,000-6,000 per year for routine annuals and maintenance....barring anything big.

Ignore the V-tail neigh sayers....if taken care of with nice paint...it isn't an issue.
 
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Highly suggest to call @ insurance before you go down the HP Complex route, it will depend on hours you have and in similar planes. I'm a just newly minted pilot, but when I bought mine a few months ago insurance was ~$1500 for my first year with a 1965 182, believe it was going to be significantly higher (like 2-3x) with a HP complex like a Bo.
 
If you have to ask, then the answer is always No. LOL

I can't afford my plane either. But who needs to retire when they can fly every weekend?
 
Sounds like you can buy one, make sure you can afford to run it.
 
@Johnbo - what is your threshold for pain when it comes to hourly rates. For our 182 I think we run around $115/hr for fuel, engine reserve, insurance, annuals and hangar (no loan). But hangar is only $100/month. I would think the Bo hourly rate might be closer to $140/hr and even higher if you having to rent a hangar for $500/month. Not trying to sway you away from the Bo, they are awesome planes. Just trying to give you another angle to consider.

At about 3yrs of ownership and me having about 2yrs of time in the 182 I think I currently would like the following (in order):

- ADSB Out (in July)
- GPS Navigator (next year)
- New windshield
- 40mph faster plane
- Second row seats are individual adjustable seats (eg 206,210, etc)
- Updated interior

....our farthest trip has been just under 500sm. It totally worked for that flight. We typically average ground speeds of about 145mph. If I was upgrading I would want that number to be 180mph or better or why bother. I think a Bo gets you pretty close to that number. But then there is the irony, we just don't do these trips that often. Why:

Reason # 1: Not IR yet and that would maybe increase dispatch another 30% up here. But still doesn't solve 4+ months of icing potential.
Reason # 2: Winds. A lot of places in the upper Midwest can be windy so I am still working up my comfort zone here.
Reason # 3: Fuel and FBO costs. That 500sm trip (500sm each way) is gonna run you over $400. Throw in another $100/day for parking in a heated hangar and fees. Pretty soon a 3 day trip is closing in on $1000 not counting rental cars, hotels, etc.

....so you have to really ask yourself how often you will make that 500 mile trip or 300 mile trip or whatever. As a new pilot it seems like we'll be doing entire flights across the USA right after the PPL is signed off. Then life, weather, work and money go and get real and those trips start to get pretty rare. If you realistically don't think you'll do lots of trips then the extra cost of the Bo might not be worth it over a 182 or Dakota.
 
I bought my Debonair in 2012. I had 40 hrs of time in a 172, i was still a student pilot. Insurance required me to get my ppl, complex, and 25 hrs of duel before taking passengers. It cost $1800 for $60,000 in coverage the first year.

Today I pay $1130, I’m told it would be a little less if I had a instrument rating, I have around 650 hrs in the Deb now.

I’m not sure how much more it cost for the retractable gear. But I know even my 225 hp Deb can do 150 knots on 12gph. I know the 182 is going to burn more gas per trip and that will also cost you a bit.

182’s are fine planes, for me the Debonair was just a better fit. And the ability for mine to burn Mogas is also a big plus. Mogas is currently $2.75 per gallon vs $4.10 for 100ll.
 
I had a boo boo a couple of years ago. Hit my elevator on the corner of my t hangar. It was sent to Biggs and reskined in aluminum. My cost was $50, insurance picked up the rest and there was no change in my premiums.
 
Part of my question would be whether your goal are hours flown or miles flown. In other words, do you have trips you're going to do and you'll do them in a slower plane or a faster plane, whatever you have, or if you have the faster plane will you fly more trips?

A 182 will generally be less per hour than a Deb/Bo. It will also be noticeably slower. If you want to go places, I would get the Deb/Bo. If you want to bore holes in the sky, get the 182.

Generally I'd figure the costs to be more or less a wash and the bigger variables will be in the condition/luck you have with the engine/prop in whatever you buy. Assuming at $75k you're talking about an older 182 vs. a Deb/Bo, they're all going to have Continentals in them so the engine is effectively the same. The Deb/Bo should almost certainly be cheaper per mile if you're going on trips. But if your goal is $100 hamburgers more than going somewhere, the 182 might be cheaper.

As to whether you can afford it, on the piston twins I've always said you have to set $10k on fire each year before you can even put fuel in and start the engines (with the MU-2 that number gets bigger). I'd figure you should have a $10-15k per year budget for sole owner, with the understanding that an engine can go at any time.
 
Johnbo said:
I figured I would start a new thread since the subject line of my last one is no longer relevant.

I have previously determined that a 182 fits my mission. But in reading several posts in my last thread it seems that some of the older Bonanzas and Debonairs might as well.

I had not previously considered a Bo (or any complex plane) since I am a low-time pilot and wasn’t sure if I could get insurance, what it would cost and how lengthy are the training requirements to be insured. All other things being equal, I would take a Bo over a 182 in a second so perhaps it is worth considering.

Using google, there are tons of discussions on 182vsBo, some say maintenance on Bo is higher, some say lower, some say equal. There is a bit less info on insurance requirements but the 182 quote I have it is quite reasonable and only requires 1-hour of dual in the 182 making it a non issue.

My current budget criteria are: $75k max spend excluding pre-buy, ferry, etc. for $75k I want A mid-time motor (or newer) on a plane that hasn’t been sitting around idle for years and I want basic, functioning IFR panel so I can use this plane to get my IFR rating. I don’t care too much about paint or interior as long as the plane has been hangared, maintained and is in good shape. What I don’t want is a $70k plane that obviously needs a new motor / prop or has inop IFR systems.

Is this a reasonable expectation for a Bo or Debonair? How bad is my insurance going to be and after how many hours will it drop down to a “normal” rate? Are maintenance costs really any different on average vs a 182 or similar age and condition?

Thx
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When I was looking, I ran with this question also. I questioned Beechtalk at length. The consensus that I got was a Deb was going to run about 70% more to own compared to the Warrior that I had at the time. Parts are higher. The aircraft is more complex. YMMV

One other thing that I learned, many of the Debs have an issue with aft cg. The useful load is good but it can be a problem keeping the cg in limits. Plus, the cg moves aft as fuel is burned.
 
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My cost over the last 7 years are around $120 to $150 dollars per hour. This includes $300 per month hangar, it does not include any reserves or big upgrades. I fly around 75-100 hrs per year.

I don’t know what a 182 runs. I keep track, just don’t tell my wife.
 
I agree with STeingar. Get thee to beechtalk now (but stick around here too!).

I own part of a 182 and love it, but I'd probably get a vtail with the same money if I were in a position to buy.

A couple of things though. I'm not sure what your mission is (range and cabin load). If you're price sensitive, there are lots of airplanes that can be bought well under 75K and owned for not too bad of a price. if you need to go fast with a lot of cargo, then yes, it'll cost more.

Consider too partnerships. One partner could mean that instead of scrimping you buy a 75K plane and praying nothing big breaks, you could each buy half of a 90k plane, put 10k each in the reserve fund, and each keep 20k so you're not stretched. this also cuts insurance, GPS database updates, registration, hangar and annual in 1/2.

You could go Viking? https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...PER+VIKING&listing_id=2358975&s-type=aircraft for $30K, add a Garmin 375 for say 10K installed (or less) and get ADSB in/out done and have a brand new, latest gen moving map GPS at the same time. Call it 40K? Engine is old/etc, but....

Or this mid time one with a GTN650/etc. looks super clean asking 68K https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...VIKING+300&listing_id=2333614&s-type=aircraft
 
dmcummins said:
My cost over the last 7 years are around $120 to $150 dollars per hour. This includes $300 per month hangar, it does not include any reserves or big upgrades. I fly around 75-100 hrs per year.

I don’t know what a 182 runs. I keep track, just don’t tell my wife.
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Are your hourly numbers all mogas? We can burn mogas in our 182 but don't, too stinky and tough on the bladders so if the debonair is a wet wing that would be a nice advantage.

Would it be fair to add +$30/hr to your hourly rate for engine rebuild fund? If so, that would be $150...$180/hr with mx reserves added in and hangar. We'd be around $140/hr in the 182 if we had the same hangar bill. If you average your rate you are about $25/hr more so not that far apart in the grand scheme of things and you get there faster!
 
Sinistar said:
Are your hourly numbers all mogas? We can burn mogas in our 182 but don't, too stinky and tough on the bladders so if the debonair is a wet wing that would be a nice advantage.

Would it be fair to add +$30/hr to your hourly rate for engine rebuild fund? If so, that would be $150...$180/hr with mx reserves added in and hangar. We'd be around $140/hr in the 182 if we had the same hangar bill. If you average your rate you are about $25/hr more so not that far apart in the grand scheme of things and you get there faster!
Click to expand...

I’m probably burning 70% Mogas theses days. On trips I use what’s available.
 
TCABM said:
Has no RV skins for any models in stock but ‘intends’ to support the fleet. According to Textron execs, “ ...future plans are limited by environmental concerns around the chemical dip process...”. No estimated ship date and no pricing available.

The challenge is that sheet magnesium is used for the skins; aluminum replacements are too heavy to balance properly.

I would not be in the V-tail market today. No such issue for the Debs or straight tails.

There’s plenty of info on BT...search Bad News for V-tails.
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Non-issue.
dfa16f1a-5ab7-4934-ba72-8d400a3385db-jpeg.74623
 
MIFlyer said:
A couple of things though. I'm not sure what your mission is (range and cabin load). If you're price sensitive, there are lots of airplanes that can be bought well under 75K and owned for not too bad of a price. if you need to go fast with a lot of cargo, then yes, it'll cost more.
Click to expand...

Range is 450 nautical and load is really just myself my wife and son. Would be good to get four adults in for trips with friends but most of the time it will be me flying solo on business trips (weather permitting) from 150-350 nautical miles of the three of us visiting family or fiends on either a 120 mile trip or a 400 mile trip. I also like to fly around going nowhere just for fun and pattern work. Home base is 2400’ of grass around sea level so I don’t need a bush plane but a ground lover is no good either...especially in the summer with fuel and passengers.

After reading all that I think I spelled out a 182 mission quite well...I just want to get the best I can without biting off too much and not be wanting to go through the speed upgrade process in a few years.

Thx
 
I have a 65 Debonair and love it! I also burn mogas almost exclusively. 2.75/gal vs 4.75 at my local airport. That is huge if you have a limited flying budget, like myself. I think a mogas burning Deb or E185/225 Bo is about the best speed per fuel $ that you can get. Of course, I do have to buy 100LL from time to time as a lot of airports don’t have mogas available.

To run mogas, it has to be either the IO470J or K. A lot of Deb’s have been upgraded to the IO470N/IO520/IO550, which require 100LL. I’m sticking with the K myself come engine overhaul time. No way I’m giving up my auto fuel! I will say if you do mountain flying, you may want the extra power of the higher compression engines.
 
I was in your boots a couple of years ago. Afford a Bonanza? Absolutely not. My budget was about yours. I was in the process of retirement and looked at many many planes. My wife and I did not want a partnership under any circumstance.
A good friend has a large shop and he told me that I needed to up my budget to minimum I’d 100K due to generally you will have to correct less. Did a pre-buy on a 210 that was pretty, new paint, interior, nice panel and my friend found over 20K of required repairs in 30 minutes. I asked many questions on BT (the very best type club and group) and was sent an email by someone selling their F33A but would not list it with a broker or advertise. Long story short....this plane was a gift from God. Low time and extremely well taken care of.
It had a Garmin 530W, 430, Aera 796 portable but mounted between the dual yokes, standby electric attitude indicator, King KFC 200 a/p and flight director, a Garmin 345 ADSB transponder and a carbon monoxide detector. Low time, under 4000k TT and 800 hrs on the engine. I paid $125000 and have flown almost 200 hours. My insurance is $1200 but I have a lot of time. I figure about $140/hour but do my own maintenance.

182 is a fantastic plane and I would be happy with one but the Bonanza fits our mission better.

Fly both before you decide.

How much money does it take to own one?

All of it.
 
Johnbo said:
Seems I need to have a membership in order to view this link...
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If you are even thinking about a Bo, then you should sign up for a membership. It is a great forum.

As to whether you can afford one, if you can afford a 182, then you can afford a Bo. They both have their money holes and their pros and cons. I have made three trips in the last year covering over 20,000 NMs, including 4 times crossing the Rockies. The Bo (1967 V35) has performed flawlessly. In the past four years, the only Beech related issue I have had was the landing gear switch. Every other problem was with 3rd party avionics (Attitude indicator failed, JPI 700 display faded out and I had a starter and alternator fail, but they both had a bazillion hours on them and they were basically the same parts you will see in a 182.

The issue with the ruddervator skins is a legitimate issue, but if you buy a plane with good RVs, I am convinced that this problem will be hammered out way before you need to be concerned.

Good luck whichever way you go, but consider this: I have heard of many people that traded their 182 for a Bo, but I have rarely heard of anyone trading their Bo for a 182.
 
Morgan3820 said:
...One other thing that I learned, many of the Debs have an issue with aft cg. The useful load is good but it can be a problem keeping the cg in limits. Plus, the cg moves aft as fuel is burned.
Click to expand...

I've heard the cheap fix for that is hang a heavier IO-550 on the front. ;)

PilotRPI said:
Started flying a Bo recently. Not sure how I’ll ever go back.
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Back to what? Walking?
Just askin' :D

JOhnH said:
...The issue with the ruddervator skins is a legitimate issue, but if you buy a plane with good RVs, I am convinced that this problem will be hammered out way before you need to be concerned...
Click to expand...

Are the magnesium ruddervators a "wear item"?

Or is the issue with corrosion addressed for the long term by hangaring the plane to keep the surfaces dry, and maintaining a good protective paint coating on them?

I understood it was the latter, and not an issue if you hangared the airplane to keep dew, rain and snow melt water off the surfaces.
 
Most people claim that always want to go places in their plane and then great majority of them end up flying locally , basically pretty much for fun 90% of time which what GA is really very good at ... so don’t lie to yourself :)
 
Sinistar said:
If you average your rate you are about $25/hr more so not that far apart in the grand scheme of things and you get there faster!
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But is it really worth it? Faster cruise is great, but does it really make a meaningful difference? Next time you take a trip of any length record the time it takes to flight plan, load the aircraft, preflight and taxi to the runway. After you're at your destination record the time to taxi to parking, unload the aircraft, deal with the FBO and any other post flight activities. Those times won't change much regardless of the aircraft you're flying. Now add the flight times. On a 500nm trip you're saving about what, an hour door to door? If you're making that 500nm trip every week, probably worth it. Three to four times a year, not so sure...

Of course cabin volume, that's another thing...
 
I really question your desire for a 182. Not because it's not a great plane for your mission (remember, I love them and own part of one), but with a 75K budget, you want a plane purchase price under 60K to account for pre-purchase, tax, registration, ferry, deposit on tie down, etc. I just don't see 182's with the features you want for $60K. 4 years ago, maybe, but right now, no. That's hwy I am suggesting you consider some other options. All planes have gone up, but 172's and 182's are PROUD right now. I think you're looking at 80K plus all the other expenses for the 182 you're looking for, but I do think you could find something great for 60 that would meet your needs. this plane, with a GN375? https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/31443507/1963-beechcraft-b33-debonair

1,300 feet to get over a 50' obstacle.

For 182, here's about the cheapest flying 182 on controller for 50K https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33174693/1962-cessna-182-skylane plus needs a garmin 375.

I guess you could do this and have a 60K into a 182 to go 135 kts or have a deb for the same money?
 
GRG55 said:
Are the magnesium ruddervators a "wear item"?

Or is the issue with corrosion addressed for the long term by hangaring the plane to keep the surfaces dry, and maintaining a good protective paint coating on them?

I understood it was the latter, and not an issue if you hangared the airplane to keep dew, rain and snow melt water off the surfaces.
Click to expand...

No, the ruddervaters are not a wear item or service life restricted.

Yes, the biggest issue for the RV's is corrosion and you're spot on for how to prevent it and avoid the problem. Just wish there was a way to figure out how well past owners treated an aircraft. :eek:

Cheers,
Brian
 
Do you go flying for '2hrs' or do you fly to 'go to xyz which is 285 miles away' ?

The answer to that question also answers whether a Bo is more expensive than a 182.

Insurance is going to be pricey for year one and drop rapidly after that. 3-4 years in the insurance on a 75k Bo is going to be within $500 of that on a 182. The basic annual fee is going to be a bit higher than that on a fixed gear 182 as the plane has to be put on jacks and there are additional systems to inspect. Where the Bo or Deb can nickle and dime you in $1000 installments are:
- gear motor overhauls
- gear transmission overhauls
- flap motor overhauls
- flap transmission overhauls
- starter adaptor overhauls
- alternator overhauls
- instrument light dimmer controls
- fuel quantity gauges
- HSI overhauls

Now you will find those who have been lucky and never had to deal with any of those items (or are simply liars), but you do have to go into complex aircraft ownership with your eyes open. Chances are, even if you 'save on fuel', yearly out of pocket expenses are going to be a bit higher on the Bo than on a similar vintage 182. You get what you pay for. The country is a bit smaller at 175kts than at 135kts.
 
flight2000 said:
Yes, the biggest issue for the RV's is corrosion and you're spot on for how to prevent it and avoid the problem. Just wish there was a way to figure out how well past owners treated an aircraft. :eek:

Cheers,
Brian
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It is hard to tell. A slimy acquaintance of mine bought a cheap '47 Bo about 20 years ago. The exhaust failed on the short trip home. One thing after another failed and he applied the cheapest possible repairs - some legal, some not so legal, but he signed the books (he is an IA). He went to paint the ruddervators, ailerons, and flaps and found the magnesium skins (on at least the ruddervators) perforated with corrosion when he stripped the old paint. In true dishonest guy fashion, he fiberglassed the holes, painted the surfaces, stuck 'em back on, and sold the airplane to some sucker who got it home, found multiple problems, and never flew it again.

Point is, you can get your lunch money stolen if you don't know what to look for or if someone is intentionally hiding stuff.
 
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GRG55 said:
Are the magnesium ruddervators a "wear item"?

Or is the issue with corrosion addressed for the long term by hangaring the plane to keep the surfaces dry, and maintaining a good protective paint coating on them?

I understood it was the latter, and not an issue if you hangared the airplane to keep dew, rain and snow melt water off the surfaces.
Click to expand...

Wear item? Are crunched control surfaces during ground incidents by third parties, "wear items"? You betcha. I'm not speaking from the cheap seats, I've had to deal with that very situation. V-tail apologists can spare me the fanaticism, go park that thing anywhere in proximity to other people "handling" airplanes, and go ask Textron today for a pair as part of an insurance claim. To be clear, even in the case of my Arrow it wasn't exactly easy (people don't stock outer rear spars a la carte) but it didn't AOG me. Make no mistake, there are people AOG right now on account of RV, so it's not conjecture. It's a real show stopper. No way in hell I'd want to sink CAPEX on a V-tail right now. Even the announcement made by Textron is still a "check's in the mail" offering. That an a buck twenty gets people with hangar rash a cup of coffee.

As to the thread at hand, I'm no Conti fan. But by all means, get a Bo.... just get a straight tail. I almost went the Debo route myself before I snapped back and ran away from the Continental engine around the time Gary had his accident. My ultimate objection to the Debbie was that I wasn't impressed the fact it's got worse CG range than my Arrow. Stock debbies are basically a 150knot Arrow, in essence a Mooney J with the wrong brand engine engine. Useful loads are rather pitful for an airplane with 225HP. I suppose the case could be made that you could find a discounted one compared to mooney Js. To be clear, pre-C debbies are bench seat and suffer from the same issues as pre-66 Comanches: Tight back seats (compared to stretch Cherokees. I've sat in all three, it was a factor for my family). So I decided to just keep the Arrow.

I like the ingress/egress of the Cessnas. I would go with the 182 on this one. I just wish I could afford the Lyco powered ones (fixed gear I mean, the R182 parts cost structure is a non-starter for me). Prices are indeed stupid right now. Recession should normalize things. Things ebb and flow, and airplane prices will too.

TCABM said:
Let me know when part numbers are in-stock or back-orderable.

If it was a non-issue, ABS would take their $200K prize for an alternate solution off the table.
Click to expand...

Shack.
 
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GRG55 said:
I've heard the cheap fix for that is hang a heavier IO-550 on the front. ;)



Back to what? Walking?
Just askin' :D



Are the magnesium ruddervators a "wear item"?

Or is the issue with corrosion addressed for the long term by hangaring the plane to keep the surfaces dry, and maintaining a good protective paint coating on them?

I understood it was the latter, and not an issue if you hangared the airplane to keep dew, rain and snow melt water off the surfaces.
Click to expand...

they get damaged or suffer corrosion. or they get sanded every paint job and eventually get too thin, but it's usually corrosion. i'm not sure if you can treat them with corrosion X to fight that, but i'd investigate it.
 
flight2000 said:
...Just wish there was a way to figure out how well past owners treated an aircraft. :eek:

Cheers,
Brian
Click to expand...

Well, as long as the ruddervators don't look like this, maybe it'll be okay. ;)
(Photographed on the ramp at Boise, Idaho in Sept '17)

Bo Rvator2.JPG Bo Rvator1.JPG
 
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