Can experimental airplanes be professionally built?

dcat127

dcat127

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I thought not, but there is an RV-10 listed on controller.com that says in the notes: This airplane was built professionally in South America. It has an N tail number so it is US registered currently. Is there some loophole that allows a plane to be built by professionals outside the US and then sold and registered in the US?
 
49% of them can be professionally built. 51% must be amateur built.
 
Yes. You can buy a used experimental plane, right? Why not buy one with 0.0 Hobbs then?

You just won't be able to perform condition inspections because you're not the builder, so you'll have to hire a real mechanic for that.
 
Yes but you have apply for a US airworthiness certificate which means a FSDO or DAR inspection just as if you had built it. For certification as E-AB you have to show documentation that it meets the major portion rule (aka the 51% rule). So maybe they played fast and loose with the description, the paperwork or both. Or perhaps it has an Experimental-Exhibition airworthiness certificate instead of E-AB.
 
tsts4 said:
Yes but you have apply for a US airworthiness certificate which means a FSDO or DAR inspection just as if you had built it. For certification as E-AB you have to show documentation that it meets the major portion rule (aka the 51% rule). So maybe they played fast and loose with the description, the paperwork or both. Or perhaps it has an Experimental-Exhibition airworthiness certificate instead of E-AB.
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From another thread in another forum, that one is registered as Experimental Exhibition. You'd have to read its specific operating limits, but they are <generally> much more restrictive than the operating restrictions on an Experimental Amateur Built.
 
dcat127 said:
I thought not, but there is an RV-10 listed on controller.com that says in the notes: This airplane was built professionally in South America. It has an N tail number so it is US registered currently. Is there some loophole that allows a plane to be built by professionals outside the US and then sold and registered in the US?
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The "strings" attached on the operating limits tell the tale. If you're interested, have the seller send you a copy of those and you'll know for sure.
 
kyleb said:
The "strings" attached on the operating limits tell the tale. If you're interested, have the seller send you a copy of those and you'll know for sure.
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ahh so. I figured as much. However, as you mention it’s all in the OPLIMs. There’s a guy over on the EAA forums that has IIRC some model of Cessna that he’s operating under Experimental-Exhibition and his OPLIMs are essentially the same as those found on most E-ABs. So it’s possible, although I doubt an imported RV-10 will be looked at as kindly by the FAA.
 
If it has a current registration and airworthiness certificate, then the aircraft's provenance has already been established to FAA (or someone at the FAA) satisfaction. It would have to be "experimental" of some sort or another, so there is a letter of "operating limitations". Understanding what's those limitations are, and a good pre-buy inspection from an RV-10 expert should be your guidance if you are thinking about buying it.
 
No, I'm not thinking of buying it. ( I mean I would be if I had an extra $300k burning a hole in my pocket) more just curious since it didn't seem to match what I thought the rules were...
 
An E-AB can be built by a "professional" as long as said "professional" undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.
On the other hand if an "amateur" decided to build an aircraft for profit, then no-go.
 
All the F-16's for UAE were initially flown under E-AB category, until they were accepted by UAE. Once that was done, the N numbers were removed and the aircraft were moved from E-AB to government control.

The UAE purchase was not done under normal foreign military sales processes. It was considered a commercial contract sale. The government chose to have LM fly the aircraft initially under E-AB rules until the UAE took ownership. There are a number of aircraft programs that are foreign sales that are happening that way these days. Sales thru DoD go the normal way, and the a/c are always considered DoD property, where as sales considered to be "commercial" go the E-AB route.
 
Craig said:
Doc: Here's a link to the first one... The N6xxxx series numbers were reassigned to Air Tractor for a while. Since then, a couple of the numbers have been reassigned to other aircraft.

https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquiry/Search/NNumberResult?nNumberTxt=N161LM
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That just says that they were certified with an experimental airworthiness certificate. As Doc posted there are eight different special airworthiness certificates available under the experimental category. E-AB is but one of these. I guarantee you these F-16s weren’t certified under E-AB.
 
Guys. I had the paperwork in my hands almost every day, as I crewed those aircraft for several years. The paperwork showed E-AB.....
 
tsts4 said:
That just says that they were certified with an experimental airworthiness certificate. As Doc posted there are eight different special airworthiness certificates available under the experimental category. E-AB is but one of these. I guarantee you these F-16s weren’t certified under E-AB.
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Shucks. I was going to start googling for a kit...
 
About 15 years ago I spent some time in Sandersville, GA (a cool little town BTW). The A&P who ran the airport, FBO & Mx Shop built RVs for customers to their specifications. Kaolin Aviation. I believe he flew them himself for six months, or whatever, before selling. But it's been awhile.

Anecdotal, I know but there it is.
 
Craig said:
Guys. I had the paperwork in my hands almost every day, as I crewed those aircraft for several years. The paperwork showed E-AB.....
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I don't buy that. It in no way meets the requirements, and there are other categories in which it does.
 
When Daryl Greenamyer built an F-104 from spare parts to set speed records, he registered it as E-AB. But if F-16s built for export had E-AB airworthiness certificates, it was almost certainly a paperwork error.
 
tsts4 said:
That just says that they were certified with an experimental airworthiness certificate. As Doc posted there are eight different special airworthiness certificates available under the experimental category. E-AB is but one of these. I guarantee you these F-16s weren’t certified under E-AB.
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Correct. There is an experimental category for manufacturers as they test. Certainly not possible to be E/AB.
 
Dana said:
When Daryl Greenamyer built an F-104 from spare parts to set speed records, he registered it as E-AB. But if F-16s built for export had E-AB airworthiness certificates, it was almost certainly a paperwork error.
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I believe Greenamyer's F104 was Experimental/Exhibition.
 
Dana said:
When Daryl Greenamyer built an F-104 from spare parts to set speed records, he registered it as E-AB. But if F-16s built for export had E-AB airworthiness certificates, it was almost certainly a paperwork error.
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He would have had to vastly change the design. But in any case, the rules are being enforced a bit more nowadays for "reinventing" certified aircraft. The FAA is relatively blind to pro builds, however.
 
tsts4 said:
That just says that they were certified with an experimental airworthiness certificate. As Doc posted there are eight different special airworthiness certificates available under the experimental category. E-AB is but one of these. I guarantee you these F-16s weren’t certified under E-AB.
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I have the FAA registration database for January 2020. It shows three Lockheed F-16Fs on the Deregistration list... N161LM, N162LM, and N163LM. All have the Certification code of "41": "4" means Experimental, and "1" is Research and Development. Two have model years 2004, the other 2003. They're shown as being deregistered due to export to the United Arab Emirates.

They're on the active aircraft list in the 2004 database, with a blank for their certification code. Technically, this indicates they do not have an Airworthiness Certificate yet, though the implementation of this is inconsistent. They're off the registry as of the following year. The FAA does not include a listing for Deregistered aircraft until 2006, at which point the three F-16s are listed, with the Experimental R&D certification.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I have the FAA registration database for January 2020. It shows three Lockheed F-16Fs on the Deregistration list... N161LM, N162LM, and N163LM. All have the Certification code of "41": "4" means Experimental, and "1" is Research and Development. Two have model years 2004, the other 2003. They're shown as being deregistered due to export to the United Arab Emirates.
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I should have noted that I don't think it's impossible that the original paperwork on the aircraft indicated Experimental Amateur-Built. It may have been a paperwork error, corrected at the time the aircraft were moved from the active list to the deregistered list.

For instance, there are currently three Cessnas (a 140 and two 172s) in the registry as Experimental Amateur-Built. N84BC, N1015V, and N16VC (although the latter is in multiple certification categories under Experimental).

Ron Wanttaja
 
Many gliders are imported under Experimental Racing or Experimental Exhibition documentation. The same glider can also be imported under regular standard category documentation. As far as gliders go, there's not much difference to the owner unless it's a two place and he plans to use it for paid instructional or sightseeing flights. Of course the experimentals only need conditional inspections every year and any A&P can do those (no IA required).
 
Witmo said:
Of course the experimentals only need conditional inspections every year and any A&P can do those (no IA required).
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That's the case for amateur built, but not necessarily so for all other experimental certs. I worked on a small fleet of X-R&D aircraft that had to be inspected by the FAA every year.

Nauga,
who didn't think it was a burden
 
nauga said:
That's the case for amateur built, but not necessarily so for all other experimental certs. I worked on a small fleet of X-R&D aircraft that had to be inspected by the FAA every year.

Nauga,
who didn't think it was a burden
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As with all "experimentals" the FAA can demand restrictions by stating them in the operating limitations. I would expect some stringent inspection requirements for something that's heavy, fast and capable of doing great damage as opposed to a typical general aviation experimental. Boeing developing a new airliner under a Special Airworthiness Certificate for R&D is hardly the same as a guy building an aircraft in his garage under as an amateur builder or buying one ready made from PZL and importing it as an Experimental for Racing.
 
Witmo said:
As with all "experimentals" the FAA can demand restrictions by stating them in the operating limitations. I would expect some stringent inspection requirements for something that's heavy, fast and capable of doing great damage as opposed to a typical general aviation experimental. Boeing developing a new airliner under a Special Airworthiness Certificate for R&D is hardly the same as a guy building an aircraft in his garage under as an amateur builder or buying one ready made from PZL and importing it as an Experimental for Racing.
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All true. I was still thinking of the F-16 example when I responded, even though you probably weren't. :) FWIW the 'fleet' I referred to are all GA-like and under 3000lb AUW.

Nauga,
the edge case
 
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