Calling Class C 12 miles out

flykelley

flykelley

Pre-takeoff checklist
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flykelley
Hi Gang
I dropped my daughter over at (LAN) Lansing MI. I was always taught to call class C around 12 miles out. In the am when I dropped her off I did that and it was no problem. I came back around 5pm and called 12 out and got a lecture from the controller. She said I know as long as I talk to you before you enter class C its legal but in the future please call 15 out. Now both times the airport was not busy, I did not conflict with any other traffic, so why would she want a call at 15 out?

Regards Mike
 
Because she thinks she gets to make the rules?

She may be used to that distance because that's where she normally gets handoffs, or because for the typical speeds she sees 15NM lets her comfortably work the traffic into her flow.

She may have been having a bad day - I get the feeling from your post that she wasn't just politely making a request, but instead "lecturing" you on your mistake, implying you should have known better (while still admitting you hadn't broken any rules).

Since you're the only one who heard her and can interpret her remarks in context, you can either ignore it, or if you feel she was in the wrong and has a hazardous attitude, you can call the QA folks at the approach control and ask for a review. They'll handle any necessary controller re-education. The QA folks are the closest thing we FLIB drivers have to an advocate on the ATC staff, and at least here in DC they are a terrific resource, correcting misunderstandings and errors in a way that doesn't inflame anyone's temper. I like to think of them as the equivalent of a diplomatic envoy.
 
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At the Class C here they like a call long before you enter. I usually call 25 or 30 miles out.

They get a lot of folks who fly straight toward the airspace, then turn at the last minute - which we know is legal. But they also get a fair number who continue into C airspace without ever calling. They just don't know which one you are when they aren't talking to you. If they know who you are and what your intentions are well before you enter the airspace, they can route traffic appropriately.

That's the way it is here. YMMV.
 
12 miles? 15 miles? While it's true that anywhere outside the Class C space is legal, ATC prefers to hear from you sooner rather than later. The Sectional suggests that you contact approach at 20 miles. As to why you got the lecture - it might be that controller's pet peeve and because things weren't busy she had time to vent.

Regards,
Joe
 
My two cents would be this...The sectional gives you approach freqs. and tell you to contact within 20 nm. I would have called approach (about 20-25 miles) and they would have probably would give you a squalk code. Then they would hand you off tower for your entry and clearence to land. The problem with calling 12 miles out is if they are slow to respond or say "aircraft callling tower -- standby" for whatever reason you would have to do a 180. Of course you could desend under 2100 feet but it just seem like the hard way of doing things.
 
Well, AIM 3-2-4:
Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two-way radio communications are established...
Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport.
​
So for most Class C airports, your outer area is the ring 10-20nm from the center. Radar services are offered in this area, this is the area you "call up" from. If you choose to call up from 12nm out, then you've allowed 2nm to establish communications (how long? a minute? 45 seconds?). This may be enough to be legal, but given that the outer ring starts at 20nm out, why not initiate communications there?
-harry
 
mantakos said:
Well, AIM 3-2-4:
Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two-way radio communications are established...
Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport.
​
So for most Class C airports, your outer area is the ring 10-20nm from the center. Radar services are offered in this area, this is the area you "call up" from. If you choose to call up from 12nm out, then you've allowed 2nm to establish communications (how long? a minute? 45 seconds?). This may be enough to be legal, but given that the outer ring starts at 20nm out, why not initiate communications there?
-harry
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When VFR I usually do the 20NM thing. It is written on the sectional for most class C (MDW is different) and it is pretty easy to do.


How did the dropp off go? Any problems with the FBO?
 
Good advice when approaching any restricted airspace is to try to make contact early enough that you don't have to turn away if there is any delay. Sometimes the frequency is busy or the controller is working on something else. If you call 12 miles away from Class C, that's only one minute lead time. If you consistently make contact within one minute, then you are clearly living a blessed life, and I wish you would share some of that good karma with me.

I agree with those above who have pointed out that is says right on the sectional to contact the Class C approach within 20 miles.

Jon
 
smigaldi said:
When VFR I usually do the 20NM thing. It is written on the sectional for most class C (MDW is different) and it is pretty easy to do.


How did the dropp off go? Any problems with the FBO?
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No Problems with the FBO or drop off, worked well. The thing with Lansing is they seem to not like GA traffic in there. I have heard from many GA pilots who get the feeling that lansing feels we are a bother. I don't get that at Flint or MBS. Now this is just my 2 cents but I hear it from other GA pilots also.

Regards Mike
 
flykelley said:
No Problems with the FBO or drop off, worked well. The thing with Lansing is they seem to not like GA traffic in there. I have heard from many GA pilots who get the feeling that lansing feels we are a bother. I don't get that at Flint or MBS. Now this is just my 2 cents but I hear it from other GA pilots also.

Regards Mike
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I felt that way as well. It is not just you.
 
When VFR inbound from the north I usually contact KJAN approach (Class C) 40 miles out. That puts me outside the airspace arriving airliners might need to manuever to the final approach course off the VOR. My home base is ~20nm from JAN and I'm talking to them after I leave the pattern if I'm headed toward the "ring". JAN has split frequencies and you don't always hear all the traffic they are talking. It can be real busy on one side and not on the other. Any extra time I can give them to work me in helps everyone.
 
flykelley said:
No Problems with the FBO or drop off, worked well. The thing with Lansing is they seem to not like GA traffic in there. I have heard from many GA pilots who get the feeling that lansing feels we are a bother. I don't get that at Flint or MBS. Now this is just my 2 cents but I hear it from other GA pilots also.

Regards Mike
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I've never had an issue. Flown in there a few times. Even had a long conversation with one of the controllers when the Tigers were in the world series. It was pretty late and it was just me, the controller, and some UPS planes on the radio. He kept calling FSS to get updates on the game for me. Of course, I'm also the guy that has never been refused Bravo clearance when I've requested it - even during a rush, and was even given flight following from C90 without asking. Maybe it's your radio work? Not a knock because I've never heard your radio communications, but if it sounds like you're gonna be a pain, they are gonna treat you like a pain. No "ahs" "uhs" "we'd likes" "can i gets"...
 
EdFred said:
I've never had an issue. Flown in there a few times. Even had a long conversation with one of the controllers when the Tigers were in the world series. It was pretty late and it was just me, the controller, and some UPS planes on the radio. He kept calling FSS to get updates on the game for me. Of course, I'm also the guy that has never been refused Bravo clearance when I've requested it - even during a rush, and was even given flight following from C90 without asking. Maybe it's your radio work? Not a knock because I've never heard your radio communications, but if it sounds like you're gonna be a pain, they are gonna treat you like a pain. No "ahs" "uhs" "we'd likes" "can i gets"...
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Hi Fred
Its not the radio work, if you can fly in and out of PTK when they are really busy, you should be ok on a radio with any controller. We have a large mix of planes flying in and out of PTK, everything from large jets to small GA. Did my IFR out of Flint so I have been in the mix and I am always mindfull of other traffic and how to fit into the flow. It just seems like Lansing seems to think that GA pilots are a pain to deal with.

Regards Mike
 
flykelley said:
No Problems with the FBO or drop off, worked well. The thing with Lansing is they seem to not like GA traffic in there. I have heard from many GA pilots who get the feeling that lansing feels we are a bother. I don't get that at Flint or MBS. Now this is just my 2 cents but I hear it from other GA pilots also.

Regards Mike
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Wow Mike, when I was flying in that area that was exactly the oppisite of what I found. Lansing was always nice. The only people I ever had a problem with was Saganaw... where they think they are a class C and and get anoyed and ****y when someone choises not to particpate in their TRSA.

Missa
 
Missa said:
Wow Mike, when I was flying in that area that was exactly the oppisite of what I found. Lansing was always nice. The only people I ever had a problem with was Saganaw... where they think they are a class C and and get anoyed and ****y when someone choises not to particpate in their TRSA.

Missa
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Hi Missa
Yes Saginaw in the years past have been that way. They seem to have gotten better about it over the last couple of years. I guess I got use to Flint doing my IFR there and of course my private in Linden which is just outside of Flints outer ring to the south. We use to depart Linden and just call Flint from the other ring. I will in the future call from 15-20 out, I just remember doing that while I was doing my PP and got a lecture from ATC that I called too far.

Regards Mike
 
Keep in mind that if you're headed into the central airport, the Approach controller needs time to coordinate your arrival with Tower. At two or three miles a minute, making your first call at only 12 miles just doesn't allow enough time to do that before you enter Tower's airspace unless you're the only plane in the sky.
 
I've called 40-50 miles out. My CFI says the Class C radar can see you that far away.
 
mikea said:
I've called 40-50 miles out. My CFI says the Class C radar can see you that far away.
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ASR-11 has an approximate primary surveillance radar (PSR) range of 60 miles and with a transponder (secondary surveillance radar) can see out to ~120 miles. The older ASR-7/8/9 systems have, on average, a little less range but not by much. Of course, this is all terrain permitting (line of sight).

I also agree with Ron, it takes time to coordinate an inbound VFR while working other aircraft on the frequency. Going into HPN which essentially acts as a class C and BDL which is a class C field, I call no later than 20 miles (unless I'm in the practice area which is ~15 miles from the field).
 
Given I'm usually handed off from center to approach for a Class C upward of thirty miles out, I'd think it would be just as reasonable to contact approach on your own that far out. The time and distance for you along with other traffic can narrow that gap pretty fast.

Besides, it's just a good safety measure to try to work your way in with heavier traffic from a good distance out. The controller may not have handled it all that well but there's no way of knowing what else may have happen prior to getting upset with your actions.
 
KennyFlys said:
Given I'm usually handed off from center to approach for a Class C upward of thirty miles out, I'd think it would be just as reasonable to contact approach on your own that far out. The time and distance for you along with other traffic can narrow that gap pretty fast.
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Whereas I agree that earlier is better, not everyone does. My DPE read me the riot act when I called at about 25 miles. He showed me the legend in the white box "CTC Bradley Approach within 20 miles ... "

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Whereas I agree that earlier is better, not everyone does. My DPE read me the riot act when I called at about 25 miles. He showed me the legend in the white box "CTC Bradley Approach within 20 miles ... "

-Skip
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I'd say the DPE needs a chill pill.
Edit: Oops, I automatically typed "CFI."

AIM 3-2-4:
4. Though not requiring regulatory action, Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport. Its vertical limit extends from the lower limits of radio/radar coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace, excluding the Class C airspace itself, and other airspace as appropriate. (This outer area is not charted.)
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The two key items here related to the discussion are in blue and later in red. The twenty miles isn't a mandatory requirement but every indication is you do yourself and the controller a favor by calling outside of that twenty miles.
 
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I like calling once I can reliably get ATIS, which is normally about 35 out.
 
I remember I got reamed by RFD Approach for calling RFD one time from about 30NM out, saying that I was calling them too early. RFD is a TRSA. Go figure!
 
gprellwitz said:
I remember I got reamed by RFD Approach for calling RFD one time from about 30NM out, saying that I was calling them too early. RFD is a TRSA. Go figure!
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Really? Rockford used to be nice folks. I guess they caught C90 attitude when they got more freight flights and prolly just more of the general happiness of controllers with the cutbacks.
 
mikea said:
Really? Rockford used to be nice folks. I guess they caught C90 attitude when they got more freight flights and prolly just more of the general happiness of controllers with the cutbacks.
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They usually are; I suspect it was just a bad day. I don't recall if this was in 2007 or 2006.
 
I also try to call Class C as soon as ATIS comes in clearly. I figure that if I can hear them, they can see/hear me.

What about Class D? Hubby always wants to wait until no more than 12 miles out before calling. What is the rule-of-thumb for Class D?

I call POU as soon as I cross the ridge south of them and that is about 10-11 miles. 12 miles for Danbury. Further out for HPN, but that is because you have to call NY Approach first.
 
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gprellwitz said:
I remember I got reamed by RFD Approach for calling RFD one time from about 30NM out, saying that I was calling them too early. RFD is a TRSA. Go figure!
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mikea said:
Really? Rockford used to be nice folks. I guess they caught C90 attitude when they got more freight flights and prolly just more of the general happiness of controllers with the cutbacks.
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Could be a bad day also you were in C90's airspace most likely and the RFD controller could not accept the traffic. It seems the border between C90 and RFD is somewhere between Rt47 and Rt23
 
AuntPeggy said:
I also try to call Class C as soon as ATIS comes in clearly. I figure that if I can hear them, they can see/hear me.

What about Class D? Hubby always wants to wait until no more than 12 miles out before calling. What is the rule-of-thumb for Class D?

I call POU as soon as I cross the ridge south of them and that is about 10-11 miles. 12 miles for Danbury. Further out for HPN, but that is because you have to call NY Approach first.
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Around here all the class Ds are also TRSA, so it's just like a C for us. The non-radar D's I've been into - more often than not - I get "call me at 5 miles" if I call up further than that. Or "call me when on downwind" I get quite a bit too.
 
EdFred said:
Around here all the class Ds are also TRSA, so it's just like a C for us. The non-radar D's I've been into - more often than not - I get "call me at 5 miles" if I call up further than that. Or "call me when on downwind" I get quite a bit too.
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Yes, but don't wait until downwind to make the initial callup! :no::hairraise:
 
EdFred said:
Around here all the class Ds are also TRSA, so it's just like a C for us. The non-radar D's I've been into - more often than not - I get "call me at 5 miles" if I call up further than that. Or "call me when on downwind" I get quite a bit too.
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Ed, what's "around here?" in MI it's most not all. Those that are not offically TERSAs, most have a rader feed off DTW (City, PTK, Willow & Ann Arbor) Sag, Muskeegon and K-zoo are all TERSAs But Jackson is neither if they can't see you with the binoclurs they can't see you.

Missa
 
Stupid non caps posting software...

AZO, MKG for the 4th time dammit!!
 
I like to call as soon as I think there is a reasonable chance that they'll have me on radar. At the 700-1000 AGL I fly at, that generally is around 17 miles or so for Class C, more for Class B, depending on terrain.

Occasionally terrain will screw things up. I wanted to transition Allentown Class C one time, was able to get them on the radio, dialed in the squawk code and they couldn't see me. Another helicopter a few minutes later had the same problem.

As we both flew outside ABE's airspace, we got to the southeast of ABE and suddenly Approach was able to see both helos.
 
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