Calling Class C 12 miles out

jesse said:
Just use two com radios and talk to both towers at the same time :) Otherwise you can always tell the current class D controller you need to leave frequency to coordinate your entry into the next class D.
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I'm not in one long enough to do that. Besides, as I said... I'm not gonna leave Dobbins when very fast, gray "missiles" are buzzing around in the same airspace.

Typically, I'm cleared to leave them about two miles still inside the current airspace unless he wants me to remain a bit longer. At two miles a minute, it all passes by rather quickly. The important thing to me is I am talking with one tower or the other, they know my aircraft and I'm constantly on radar.

I have greater concerns flying eastbound alongside Class B surface where I'm not talking with anyone. CRJs and larger are on downwind and/or turning base in front of me at about two to three thousand feet above me for 26R. I could call approach but they would probably tell me to get lost in so may words given how busy those sectors are. So, I give my neck a good workout!

As I'm writing this, Ryan (the other traffic pilot) called and asked me to cover for him tomorrow morning. I'm SOOOO happy temps are only gonna be around 40 at 6AM!
 
gprellwitz said:
Ken,
I don't think that you're "technically illegal", I think that you are in violation of the regs. However, it sounds as if the towers are cognizant of the challenges of the airspace and use their discretion to give you a "pass". How much of that is because they know your tail number? Would they do the same for one of your students? How will you teach the transition to them? And I think that Ron's point about a letter of agreement between the towers may play a role here.

I think it would be a really good idea to phone one of the towers on the land line one of these days and find out just what the official story is. I'd hate to find that some day a new manager came on, saying to the troops "it's time we start ENFORCING these regulations" only to find you caught in the clamp-down. If there's a LOA behind this, however, that seems less likely.
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Where the airspaces for Seattle-Tacoma, Boeing Field, and Renton Municipal overlap, it is possible to be in the airspace of two or more towers simultaneously (Sea-Tac is Class B, but I'm assuming under the floor). This is all handled by LOA, and it is not necessary for Joe or Jane Pilot to switch from one to the other unless advised to do so. A call to one is essentially a call to all, because they are connected by landline.

Since you do this for a living, it would seem that a visit or call to the Regional Counsel's office might result in a ruling that makes your life easier.

Bob Gardner

 
Bob, I don't know how much longer I'll do the traffic watch. I hope I can stick with it a while as it will be an easy way to pay off a loan to my old school's owner. Either way, I would benefit by seeing what the letters entail along with a visit to the towers. I still have a great contact at FSDO who did my 709 ride two years ago. He may be able to help me with copies of the letters.

I'll see another side of this next week. I was just asked to fly traffic watch over the south side during the NASCAR race. I've been into Tara Field next to the track and I'll be down during the race where I'll get to see a bunch of private jets owned by the driver's teams. But, there's no hope of being there when they depart.

After the race, that little airport is going to make Hartsfield look like an overgrown Class D by the volume of traffic. It's gonna be fun! :)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
IIRC, ATC cannot legally authorize a deviation from the FAR's. (Unless they say something like "unless authorized by ATC, ..."). I'm sure Ron can weigh in here and point us to something written on that subject.
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That's correct. See Subpart J of Part 91 and the text of the various regulations. Absent something specific in the reg itself, e.g.:
Section 91.169: IFR flight plan: Information required.

(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing an IFR flight plan must include in it the following information:
[emphasis added]

...the only way to get a waiver is written application to "the Administrator." In the case of entering C/D airspace...

Section 91.130: Operations in Class C airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and §91.129.

Section 91.129: Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Calm down Kenny. I think that all he was saying is that when posting, it's bad form to use the word "notify" in place of "established 2-way radio communications" (which you in fact did) since newer pilots might think that only half of the required conversation is enough.
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Bingo - Mark gets it.

And not only posting, but teaching students. Remember the law of primacy. It's very strong...
 
KennyFlys said:
It IS Established!!! Just about every time, I get those magic words, "Five-One-Two-Whiskey-Whiskey, Clear to transition Class D as requested." Either way, I get an authorization to enter prior to entry with them using my tail number. Then, communication is maintained while within until authorized to switch. How do you think I get the authorization to switch? :rolleyes:

And what you describe above is perfectly legal. It's also a lot different than "notifying." As described above, you are establishing two-way communications.

The best I can tell, I'm being switched from one area to the next while still within the current airspace so I can establish prior to entry.
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Yup, most likely.

As a last note, I just gave County ATCT a call. They have an LOA for that short stretch where their airspace meets Dobbins. The guy who answered knows my plane well and is apparently quite used to handling Whiskey-Whiskey. He said they will allow me to do whatever is necessary to conduct my flight as long as it's not a safety issue. The only thing they expect is I stay at or below 3,000 so I'm certain to remain within their airspace which tops out at 3,300.
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Hooray! We're making progress...
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But I always notify ATC that I'm coming:

Boston Approach, Cessna 123, I AM coming into your bravo airspace, I'll need you to give me 6500ft and whatever heading I need to get to my destination. Last call.
 
SkyHog said:
But I always notify ATC that I'm coming:

Boston Approach, Cessna 123, I AM coming into your bravo airspace, I'll need you to give me 6500ft and whatever heading I need to get to my destination. Last call.
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:rolleyes:
 
bobmrg said:
Where the airspaces for Seattle-Tacoma, Boeing Field, and Renton Municipal overlap, it is possible to be in the airspace of two or more towers simultaneously (Sea-Tac is Class B, but I'm assuming under the floor). This is all handled by LOA,
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It would be nice if LOIs dealing with airspace responsibility were posted, especially in situations like this one.

That or, again from the perspective of the unfamiliar pilot concerned about abutting airspace, a simple "N1234X is eastbound. Will you coordinate with XXX?" question to CD, Ground or Tower (as applicable) would probably take care of it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That or, again from the perspective of the unfamiliar pilot concerned about abutting airspace, a simple "N1234X is eastbound. Will you coordinate with XXX?" question to CD, Ground or Tower (as applicable) would probably take care of it.
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I have done that, going from C to D, and the departure controller is happy to answer.

Better than being left wondering as I'm edging closer to the class D and curious if I am going to get a handoff or not.

I get the handoff about half the time and must contact the Class D. Otherwise the departure controller stays with me as I go through the Class D. It depends on the day.

If I'm getting close to the boundary and still wondering what's going on, I'll just ask whether departure is coordinating w/ the Class D tower.

But usually by that point departure has said something that clues me in.
 
skyflyer8 said:
I have done that, going from C to D, and the departure controller is happy to answer.
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I'm less concerned with that than Kenny's scenario since it's part of Approach's regular job to handle a Class D transit. It's not necessarily one Class D's Tower's job to coordinate transition through another.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm less concerned with that than Kenny's scenario since it's part of Approach's regular job to handle a Class D transit. It's not necessarily one Class D's Tower's job to coordinate transition through another.
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I'd be glad to be under a code for my entire flight. But, it's pretty certain Atlanta TRACON doesn't want another statistic to make it the busiest in the nation.
 
KennyFlys said:
I'd be glad to be under a code for my entire flight. But, it's pretty certain Atlanta TRACON doesn't want another statistic to make it the busiest in the nation.
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Well it's only their "job" if nothing else happens. They can certainly tell you "radar services terminated" or "contact Tower."
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm less concerned with that than Kenny's scenario since it's part of Approach's regular job to handle a Class D transit. It's not necessarily one Class D's Tower's job to coordinate transition through another.
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Agreed.
 
I'm glad Bob brought up BFI-SEA-RNT (Boeing Field, Sea-Tac and Renton).

There is a huge LOA between those towers and one gets passed around when it is convenient for the towers, much like approach controllers. I know I've stayed on with the BFI controller in the edge of RNT airspace.

Check out KBFI on skyvector to see the wonderful Seattle airspace.

~ Christopher
 
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