Calling Class C 12 miles out

[Greebo]

Stupid non caps posting software...

AZO, MKG for the 4th time dammit!!

WHAT, SOMETHING WRONG?

 

[mikea]

Stupid non caps posting software...

AZO, MKG for the 4th time dammit!!

WHAT, SOMETHING WRONG?

Our benevolent wizard done removed that.

You should know that my complaints about it (alone) weren't a good enough reason to do that.

You should be flattered, Ed.

 

[ScottM]

WHAT, SOMETHING WRONG?

With Ed plenty!! But I don't think you got the time to hear it!!

With the software and the site it is ok.

 

[KennyFlys]

What about Class D? Hubby always wants to wait until no more than 12 miles out before calling. What is the rule-of-thumb for Class D?

Doing traffic around Atlanta, I usually call from 7-8 miles out. But, I'm juggling five different Class D's, including Dobbins AFB. There's LZU whom I simply advise I'm on the western edge. PDK is a problem only because of heavy corporate traffic into and off the twenties when I cross the interstate a few miles north.

On the west side, it's RYY, MGE and FTY, one after the other. I get nervous only when there's a C-5 running closed circuit 500 feet below me. The only other time was inbound traffic I couldn't see. Dobbins told me to remain as far east as possible. The traffic reporter wasn't happy I was getting so far from the interstate. Shortly after, it was clear why I would WANT to remain clear. It was a very fast and not very visible bird... called an F-22 Raptor. I never saw it at all and couldn't hear him. I just knew what it was just by the controller's comment to the pilot.

Obviously, you simply have to notify prior to entry. But, give them enough time mix you in since they may not get back to you right away. In cases of very busy Class D's such as PDK, ten miles at a minimum if you are inbound for a full stop, a little less if simply transitioning well above pattern altitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

What about Class D? Hubby always wants to wait until no more than 12 miles out before calling. What is the rule-of-thumb for Class D?

From the AIM:
4-3-2. Airports with an Operating Control Tower
a. ... Initial callup should be made about 15 miles from the airport.

 

[KennyFlys]

From the AIM:
4-3-2. Airports with an Operating Control Tower
a. ... Initial callup should be made about 15 miles from the airport.

I should have referred to that. Unless coming from outside of the metro area, there isn't the luxury. I've gotten used to dealing with "close formation", so to speak. But, should I approach one from outside such an area... Yep, call soon as practical.

My apologies for not addressing the opposite of what I'm usually dealing with.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What about Class D?

It depends. My general pattern is based on KAPA when can be extremely busy. Waiting too long can result is a very fast 180 when instructed to "remain clear." OTOH, there is such a thing as being too far away and I've heard pilots being told to wait until they were closer.

My typical is somewhere between 10-15 miles out. Seems to take case of both the too close and too far concerns most of the time and in most places.

 

[AuntPeggy]

From the AIM:
4-3-2. Airports with an Operating Control Tower
a. ... Initial callup should be made about 15 miles from the airport.

Fifteen it is, then.

 

[ScottM]

From the AIM:
4-3-2. Airports with an Operating Control Tower
a. ... Initial callup should be made about 15 miles from the airport.

Fifteen it is, then.

keep in mind the word is SHOULD. That does not mean you absolutely have to call from 15 miles out. It is a recommendation not a hard fast rule. If they meant it that way they would have said, "Initial callup shall be made about 15 miles from the airport"

The only requirement is to make sure you have radio contact prior to entering the class D. Call from one mile out is not going to make you any friends in the tower but it is still within regulations.

 

[poadeleted20]

keep in mind the word is SHOULD. That does not mean you absolutely have to call from 15 miles out. It is a recommendation not a hard fast rule. If they meant it that way they would have said, "Initial callup shall be made about 15 miles from the airport"

The only requirement is to make sure you have radio contact prior to entering the class D. Call from one mile out is not going to make you any friends in the tower but it is still within regulations.

While legally correct, it is operationally silly. Call early and give the tower controller enough time to figure out if s/he can fit you in so you don't have to do a 180 when the controller says, "Aircraft calling Salisbury Tower, stand by one." And it's "two-way communications," not "radio contact."

 

[nosehair]

I was always taught to call class C around 12 miles out.

You're dating yourself, or the instructor who told you that.

"Back in The Day", 12 miles out was sufficient time for a Tower (not a Class C Airspace controller) to react and respond. Maybe even an early Class C when ther wasn't much traffic.

But, as you can see from the responses, that just is not sufficient time for the airspace controller to flow you in to the order of things, these days.

 

[ScottM]

While legally correct, it is operationally silly.

Which is what I said if you had bothered to read the whole thing.

 

[flykelley]

You're dating yourself, or the instructor who told you that.

"Back in The Day", 12 miles out was sufficient time for a Tower (not a Class C Airspace controller) to react and respond. Maybe even an early Class C when ther wasn't much traffic.

But, as you can see from the responses, that just is not sufficient time for the airspace controller to flow you in to the order of things, these days.

Yes Nosehair
I am dating myself. Its just that most of the time when Im flying in and to Class C airspace I am being handed off from another area. In this case I was flying to LAN from up in Northern Michigan and was montioring the radio. There was very little traffic on sunday night and as soon as approch handed me off to tower I was cleared to land on 27L, with no traffic inbound or on the runway. So it was a slow night for them. In the future I will call class C from 15-20 out. I never dreamed this thread would get so many reply's. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

Regards Mike

 

[Skip Miller]

I never dreamed this thread would get so many reply's.

The one thing we got here at POA is opinions.

The other thing we got is the need to express them....

...and neither of the above are bad things!

-Skip

 

[Missa]

I never dreamed this thread would get so many reply's. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

Regards Mike

Then you haven't hung out on the board long enough... we can take a post that says "mmmmmmmmmmm" and streach a discussion about it for two pages.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Then you haven't hung out on the board long enough... we can take a post that says "mmmmmmmmmmm" and streach a discussion about it for two pages.

Hey! "mmmmmmmmmmm" is off-topic! Start a new thread!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I dropped my daughter over at (LAN) Lansing MI. I was always taught to call class C around 12 miles out. In the am when I dropped her off I did that and it was no problem. I came back around 5pm and called 12 out and got a lecture from the controller. She said I know as long as I talk to you before you enter class C its legal but in the future please call 15 out. Now both times the airport was not busy, I did not conflict with any other traffic, so why would she want a call at 15 out?

Peace of mind, ability to work you in with tower, who knows... But why wait until 12 miles to call? That's awfully close if she doesn't come back to you right away. Assuming you're in cruise at 120 knots, that leaves about 20 seconds for her to come back to you before you'd need to begin turning to avoid busting the airspace, assuming a standard-rate turn (radius at 120 knots would be about 1.3 miles).

I fly out of a class C, and I've gone in enough directions to have a pretty darn good idea of where their airspace ends. I call as soon as I know I'm in their airspace, which is up to 35nm in some spots. Probably any class C that stands on its own (ie not MDW), you should be OK to call within 20 miles in any direction below 10,000 feet. Why not call as early as possible?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Obviously, you simply have to notify prior to entry.

WRONG.

I realize you probably know this is wrong (at least I sure hope you do!), but as a CFI you will need to think very hard about how you word things so that your students don't get the wrong idea.

 

[KennyFlys]

WRONG.

I realize you probably know this is wrong (at least I sure hope you do!), but as a CFI you will need to think very hard about how you word things so that your students don't get the wrong idea.

Read what I've previously written regarding my own situation flying traffic. Though not recommended, prior to entry is legal. In my particular situation, there's no such thing as having all that distance to call. Take a look at the Atlanta TAC on Skyvector.com.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Read what I've previously written regarding my own situation flying traffic. Though not recommended, prior to entry is legal. In my particular situation, there's no such thing as having all that distance to call. Take a look at the Atlanta TAC on Skyvector.com.

I think he is calling you on saying "notify prior" instead of the proper "establish two-way communications." Splitting hairs maybe, but they mean different things to different people...I can technically abide by the FARs, enter the class D and never "notify" the tower of anything. On the other hand I could theoretically notify the tower of my intentions well before entering class D and yet bust 91.129(c)...

 

[kevin47881]

Unless I'm flying into BNA from my home drome JWN, class C gets a call from me at least 20 out. Since JWN is 10.2 from BNA (class C), I just maintain rwy heading and give 'em a call. BNA is exceptionally good about letting you cut a corner or two providing they know your intentions.

 

[KennyFlys]

I think he is calling you on saying "notify prior" instead of the proper "establish two-way communications." Splitting hairs maybe, but they mean different things to different people...I can technically abide by the FARs, enter the class D and never "notify" the tower of anything. On the other hand I could theoretically notify the tower of my intentions well before entering class D and yet bust 91.129(c)...

I don't have such a luxury juggling between closely located Class D's. As I said, look at the chart on Skyvector..

 

[Dave2]

No Problems with the FBO or drop off, worked well. The thing with Lansing is they seem to not like GA traffic in there. I have heard from many GA pilots who get the feeling that lansing feels we are a bother. I don't get that at Flint or MBS. Now this is just my 2 cents but I hear it from other GA pilots also.

Regards Mike

Lansing is just a nice as the rest, but they do get more commercial traffic than the others you mention.

Start planning on calling 20 miles out, that way if the frequency gets busy you still have time to call before you are in their face, which they don't appreciate. It can and does happen. I was once hung up at the edge of Clevleland's class B airspace doing circles at 4500 feet in mild turbulance, because a pervious controller dumped me way too late. It's not fun.

Dave

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't have such a luxury juggling between closely located Class D's. As I said, look at the chart on Skyvector..

When the D-spaces are so close together that when you clear one you don't have time to call before busting the next one, the two towers usually have a hot line and LOA for handling it if you tell one you're going to the other.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think he is calling you on saying "notify prior" instead of the proper "establish two-way communications." Splitting hairs maybe, but they mean different things to different people...I can technically abide by the FARs, enter the class D and never "notify" the tower of anything. On the other hand I could theoretically notify the tower of my intentions well before entering class D and yet bust 91.129(c)...

I don't have such a luxury juggling between closely located Class D's. As I said, look at the chart on Skyvector..

Then, you are busting the regs. TWO WAY COMMUNICATION.

I don't care how close the class D's are in your area - All you have to do is say "Peachtree Tower, N1234X is leaving your airspace momentarily, request frequency change."

I hope you're not teaching your students this type of complacency WRT the regs. And I don't know where you get the idea that all you have to do is "notify prior to entry." TWO WAY communications - They must come back, with your tail number. Even "N1234X, stand by" is OK. "Aircraft calling Tower, stand by" is not.

 

[KennyFlys]

Then, you are busting the regs. TWO WAY COMMUNICATION.

I don't care how close the class D's are in your area - All you have to do is say "Peachtree Tower, N1234X is leaving your airspace momentarily, request frequency change."

I hope you're not teaching your students this type of complacency WRT the regs. And I don't know where you get the idea that all you have to do is "notify prior to entry." TWO WAY communications - They must come back, with your tail number. Even "N1234X, stand by" is OK. "Aircraft calling Tower, stand by" is not.

Complacency, hell! I notify prior to entry because that's all I have time for. And, that is compliant. Reference AIM 3-2-5 (b)(3). When I leave one tower, it's for a duration of at least one other airspace. The change is almost instant but the time it takes to monitor for a moment before calling.

Look at the chart below.

If you think my head isn't on a swivel in the area shown on the left, you should see it as I transition along the Class B floor under a 3500' shelf. The middle air space on the left is Dobbins AFB (MGE). Last week, I was looking for a Raptor on approach. I never saw him. Something about fast and small during a period with slight haze and dim light from sunset. I was definitely looking. The nice thing was I a thousand feet above his short final. That's happen once. At least once a flight, I'll be over a C-130 or C-5 about 500' below me. They've yet to complain about my wake turbulence.

Even more nice, all the towers know who Skyhawk Five-One-Two-Whiskey-Whiskey is. LZU to the far northeast (not shown) expects me at least once but usually early on. Today, it was much later as the traffic reporter had different plans. RYY expects me at least once to go north where I'll pass about a thousand feet short of his threshold and return back south shortly after a bit further away.

It's similar with Dobbins but he'll see me at least four times in a single flight but he's also the least busy. Ditto for County (FTY). With County, I'll pass to the east of the interstate then transition along the south side of the I-20 to the west between 15-20 miles then it's back eastbound where I pass right over the field. Beechjets are very active out of there along with many other corporate ops. Notice the placard by County regarding IFR traffic. I fly at 2,900.

PDK has a wealth of traffic I've come to refer to as "Corporate Rush Hour." I'll request and usually depart 20L at Juliet, climb to 1300 and immediately make about a 165 degree turn to parallel I-85, climb on up to 2,900 and a few minute later be talking to LZU. At least three times during a flight, I'll come up I-285 on the east side and transition around to the west and back to Dobbins.

Approaching from the southeast is the ONLY time I can actually call tower more than eight miles out. At ten miles, I'm more concerned with flying along Class B surface and two shelves at 2,100 feet and 3,500 feet before I turn north inside of I-285 or continue on east on I-20. If you pull up Skyvector, you'll see I have to keep to the north of I-20 or risk busting Class B. I don't talk to Hartsfield or Atlanta approach. If I tried, I'd most likely get told to "Maintain visual separation. Remain clear of Class B. Squawk VFR. Radar services terminated." They don't have time for me and PDK isn't concerned until I get closer to that eight-mile point be it from the south or from the east should I get directed toward Snellville.

Technically, you could say I'm breaking regs. But, I'm constantly switching from one tower to another. The towers know I'm making the switch and often switch me early. Sometimes, there's a hand-off but usually it's all on me. There's only a short area on the south side where I'm not actually talking to anyone and even then I monitor Hartsfield tower for Runway 8L/26R for safety's sake.

Right now, PDK is ranked at 23rd with about 63,000 operations so far in FY2008; compared to VNY's 118,000 which is behind DVT by a couple grand. That's expected to increase dramatically. Being next to ATL as the busiest AC hub could have something to do with it. We are already overrun with charter and corporate traffic along with some busy fractionals.

It's getting very busy around here. So, I welcome all you cornfield pilots to come on down and check it out. You can rent a plane and I'll show you how fun a circuit can be.

Today, I had a second interview with a flight school. He was thrilled with my experience at towered fields as well as around Class B and wants me at his location at PDK. He says he has CFIs who are terrified of talking to towers. That dumbfounds me considering some of these guys are bound for the airlines.

Busting regs? Nope. If I were doing what they don't want, I'd know about it long before now. Between tracking down the owners of the plane, the traffic watch contractor and the radio stations who hire it done... word's gonna get through.

 

[gprellwitz]

Ken,
I don't think that you're "technically illegal", I think that you are in violation of the regs. However, it sounds as if the towers are cognizant of the challenges of the airspace and use their discretion to give you a "pass". How much of that is because they know your tail number? Would they do the same for one of your students? How will you teach the transition to them? And I think that Ron's point about a letter of agreement between the towers may play a role here.

I think it would be a really good idea to phone one of the towers on the land line one of these days and find out just what the official story is. I'd hate to find that some day a new manager came on, saying to the troops "it's time we start ENFORCING these regulations" only to find you caught in the clamp-down. If there's a LOA behind this, however, that seems less likely.

 

[KennyFlys]

Ken,
I don't think that you're "technically illegal", I think that you are in violation of the regs. However, it sounds as if the towers are cognizant of the challenges of the airspace and use their discretion to give you a "pass". How much of that is because they know your tail number? Would they do the same for one of your students? How will you teach the transition to them? And I think that Ron's point about a letter of agreement between the towers may play a role here.

I think it would be a really good idea to phone one of the towers on the land line one of these days and find out just what the official story is. I'd hate to find that some day a new manager came on, saying to the troops "it's time we start ENFORCING these regulations" only to find you caught in the clamp-down. If there's a LOA behind this, however, that seems less likely.

That particular tail number is known as and referred to as traffic watch. The towers expect it during the morning and evening rush hours.

With regard to teaching a student, let's say I was taking as student to the west practice area. I would not cross Dobbins as it's unnecessary for the requirements of the flight. I've heard statements you can cross the line between Dobbins and County. Considering there are rules that divide altitude by one foot, I don't think the border between airspace is any different. So, as soon as PDK authorizes frequency change, we call County and request transition. I'd do so to the north along side that border allowing plenty of distance between either. After I'm clear of County, I'd call approach and request traffic advisories for that area during maneuvers. Usually, are relaxed enough they can handle us.

I have no clue about an LOA. There are numerous news choppers who also transition these areas but at a much lower altitude. Metro's helo is usually at 500. That will keep them away from approach areas more often whereas I'm well above. I think it really boils down to all the towers having to "play together" in order to facilitate movement of traffic as required. Usually, it's not an issue. Were it not, they would quickly indicate "Unable" and suggest otherwise or I'd modify the plan contrary to the traffic reporter's wishes.

I have wanted to visit County's tower. One evening, it was apparent they were getting pretty frustrated with what she was wanting me to do. They authorized the transition and I was not interfering with any of their traffic. It was just someone he had to watch for that became a bit of a pain after the first few times. She had me going back a couple extra times in a very short period. The controller's tone was a bit off toward the end. I told him, "If you want us to land and take a beating, I'll understand." He laughed. They know I'm trying to accommodate a "customer" and try to help.

The problem is the "customer" doesn't care what I may be up against. She's been upset a few times. I heard of a previous pilot who refused her and turned around after only fifteen minutes out. I came pretty close to that once during preflight and another during flight. That one would have been easy to do since I was just about to cross the path of PDK's 20s.

I make the requests. So far, I've not been denied. If I am, it won't bother me. I'll do as required. It's just tangle sierra for the customer. I'm there to fly the aircraft and comply with whatever requirements by ATC. Her convenience is not more important than my ticket and certainly not more important than the safety of the flight.

 

[gprellwitz]

I have no clue about an LOA. There are numerous news choppers who also transition these areas but at a much lower altitude. Metro's helo is usually at 500. That will keep them away from approach areas more often whereas I'm well above. I think it really boils down to all the towers having to "play together" in order to facilitate movement of traffic as required. Usually, it's not an issue.

And those LOAs are what allow them to "play together". I'd be very interested in hearing what they say when you get a chance to talk to them about it! And a tower tour is certainly worth it. Try to do one with your students, too!

 

[KennyFlys]

And those LOAs are what allow them to "play together". I'd be very interested in hearing what they say when you get a chance to talk to them about it! And a tower tour is certainly worth it. Try to do one with your students, too!

That's a given. In fact, the main facility for the school I'm headed to for teaching is just a mile away from Atlanta TRACON. The welcome visits. The tower at PDK welcomes visits with students so the student learns what's happening on the other end of the mic.

 

[kkoran]

I don't know why anyone would want to wait until 12 miles out from a Class C airport. What if, just as you were going to call, someone else called...approach responded...the other aircraft transmitted again...etc. The 2 miles to the boundary--60 to 90 seconds in a relatively slow plane--could quickly disappear. Even if you got the call, the controller might not respond in time, or could tell you to remain clear. Would you turn away from the Class C airspace, or enter without establishing two-way communication?

Controllers need you to call sooner because they are required to provide certain services such as separating IFR and VFR aircraft. If a controller has an IFR aircraft anywhere near you, they would need to radar identify you to ensure the appropriate separation existed before you entered the airspace.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Complacency, hell! I notify prior to entry because that's all I have time for. And, that is compliant. Reference AIM 3-2-5 (b)(3).

OK, let's do that:

3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. Two-way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in the Class D airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the control tower on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, destination, and any request(s). Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class D airspace boundary to preclude entering the Class D airspace before two-way radio communications are established.

Where do you see anything that suggests you only need to "notify prior to entry?"

And, since the AIM is advisory, let's talk about the regs, which have more teeth:

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

Technically, you could say I'm breaking regs.

It's not "technically" at all. You ARE breaking regs.

It's getting very busy around here. So, I welcome all you cornfield pilots to come on down and check it out.

"Cornfield" hah. I'm sure Chicago Approach would laugh at that one... And I've dealt with (and flown through and around) several class B's. Yes, you're busy with all that tower switching, but it's your job to do it right. You do have two comm radios in that bird don't you? Use 'em.

Busting regs? Nope. If I were doing what they don't want, I'd know about it long before now. Between tracking down the owners of the plane, the traffic watch contractor and the radio stations who hire it done... word's gonna get through.

Just because they haven't pressed you on it doesn't mean you're not busting them. They have better things to do.

What concerns me much more is that you apparently don't realize you're busting the regs, and that you are going to be teaching people to fly.

 

[KennyFlys]

OK, let's do that:

Originally Posted by AIM 3-2-5 (b)
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. Two-way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in the Class D airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the control tower on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, destination, and any request(s). Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class D airspace boundary to preclude entering the Class D airspace before two-way radio communications are established.

Where do you see anything that suggests you only need to "notify prior to entry?"

Look above.

And, since the AIM is advisory, let's talk about the regs, which have more teeth:

Originally Posted by 14 CFR 91.129
§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

It's done as authorized by ATC between adjoining facilities. From one Class D to the next, I'm talking with someone and I continue with them until authorized to switch. PDK knows I need to switch to MGE in short order. They don't hold on to me any longer than necessary for that vary reason. When I notify the MGE controller I'll be transitioning north, they know I'll need to talk with RYY. When I pass back south, RYY knows I'll be switching back to MGE and MGE is expecting it considering I was on their radar from the moment I talked with them after switching from PDK. As I pass back south and transition to the southwest, MGE KNOWS I'll need to switch to FTY. From that point on, going west and then back east again, I'm on radar with FTY. All four of those Class Ds have radar and I flash them as requested several times during my flight.

It's not "technically" at all. You ARE breaking regs.

NOT when ATC authorizes a deviation from FARs or other requirements.

"Cornfield" hah. I'm sure Chicago Approach would laugh at that one... And I've dealt with (and flown through and around) several class B's. Yes, you're busy with all that tower switching, but it's your job to do it right. You do have two comm radios in that bird don't you? Use 'em.

It would be very improper to contact one airspace while still on with another. I flew with a student two weeks ago who left Jax Center frequency while my head was turned toward traffic. We then had a discussion about how you never leave your controller until authorized.

My traffic watch procedure is as described above and that is the most proper and correct means given the circumstances.

Tell me about your constant flying within a blocked in area between FOUR Class D and a Class B area. Show me on the Chicago TAC where there are THREE Class D's directly one after the other. The fact is, you have ORD in the middle, MDW to the south and further south is GYY. To the west is DPA. To the north is PWK and further up, UGN.

You don't have a box created by airspace. You have a set of very low shelves that prevents much of anything at all. At least you have passable gaps between each airspace short of the surface area and the 1.3, 1.4 and 1.9 shelves. Fixed wing traffic watch would be near impossible and probably doesn't exist. You've even got Class C sitting between Class B floor and ceiling. No one is going to get around there all that well.

Just because they haven't pressed you on it doesn't mean you're not busting them. They have better things to do.

What concerns me much more is that you apparently don't realize you're busting the regs, and that you are going to be teaching people to fly.

One thing you're completely forgetting... ATC AUTHORIZES ME TO PERFORM THIS PRACTICE!!!! I said already, were I doing ANYTHING not authorized, you can bet your life I would have heard about it by now.

You can't bust a regulation when you're in one airspace and they clear you to switch. Almost always, I'm still well inside one airspace when I'm authorized to switch.

Kent, I'm tired of arguing the point with you. Tell ya what, bring your own ass down here and fly the damn thing. There is no way in hell you're going to do this job and have it be perfect within the regs short of TRACON giving you a code and have a constant hand-off from one controller to the next. I guarantee with the busy ranking Atlanta has, that isn't going to happen.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Look above.

Read the reg, the whole reg, and nothing but the reg:

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

It does NOT say "notify" prior to entry. It says "Establish two-way radio communications" prior to entry. That means you need to hear your tail number prior to entry.

NOT when ATC authorizes a deviation from FARs or other requirements.

IIRC, ATC cannot legally authorize a deviation from the FAR's. (Unless they say something like "unless authorized by ATC, ..."). I'm sure Ron can weigh in here and point us to something written on that subject.

It would be very improper to contact one airspace while still on with another.

True, but you can listen to the other one so you can flip over and jump in right away.

You can't bust a regulation when you're in one airspace and they clear you to switch. Almost always, I'm still well inside one airspace when I'm authorized to switch.

And I believe that would be legal... As long as you've got 2-way comms with the next one before you enter.

I'm busting your balls because, while I know in some areas it's technically impossible to follow the reg entirely ("thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace..." followed by establishing 2-way comms prior to entering the next when they share a common border) without doing a hammerhead at the airspace border while you make the call... As a CFI, you need to know WHY you can do that so you can convey it to your students. That means contacting the facilities involved and asking about an LOA between them, maybe even establishing a copy of it so you can show said students. That way, when a student asks why it's possible to do that (or how to do it), rather than say "it's OK to break the regs when authorized by ATC" (which is WRONG), you can say "Well, there's a letter of agreement between xxx tower and yyy tower that outlines the procedures they will use to handle aircraft nearing their borders."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm busting your balls because,

Actually, there's another reason I'm busting your balls. It's because you said you only have to "notify prior to entry" in this thread which relates not to the airspace you are flying in, but a class C with nothing else around it, which is obviously very much incorrect.

 

[KennyFlys]

It does NOT say "notify" prior to entry. It says "Establish two-way radio communications" prior to entry. That means you need to hear your tail number prior to entry.

It IS Established!!! Just about every time, I get those magic words, "Five-One-Two-Whiskey-Whiskey, Clear to transition Class D as requested." Either way, I get an authorization to enter prior to entry with them using my tail number. Then, communication is maintained while within until authorized to switch. How do you think I get the authorization to switch?

So far, I've accumulated some fifty hours bouncing around doing traffic. I've learned well what the towers need and expect of me to play within their airspace.

Now, do you think it would be prudent to switch away from Dobbins (MGE) given the type of traffic they handle? Had you read a previous post, you'd see there are sometimes some VERY fast and NOT very visible traffic into and out of Dobbins AFB. I've already seen an F-22 Raptor ever so slightly be visible on the ground with bright concrete under it. It dang sure wasn't visible in the air during sunset period. I'm not going to try to talk with RYY or FTY during a five minute period I'm passing through MGE's airspace. I'll wait until I'm switched. Sometimes, they'll give me a traffic advisory but usually, it's authorized and I'm on my way to the next tower.

RYY knows I sometimes will head off to the east from their area. Even though I report clear on my own, they specifically ask me to report clear. Considering they could have an ILS approach established from the direction I'd be heading, I want to advise them.

IIRC, ATC cannot legally authorize a deviation from the FAR's. (Unless they say something like "unless authorized by ATC, ..."). I'm sure Ron can weigh in here and point us to something written on that subject.

ATC has the authority to direct traffic by whatever means necessary to all traffic in their area for the purpose of safe flight. Unless you know something is blatantly unlawful and/or certainly unsafe, follow the order. They may not always have time to give you a reason. You stated that yourself. However, I've not had any order unreasonble or incapable of following or unsafe. If anything, I get traffic advisories for some traffic clearly not a factor but done as a courtesy CYA.

Considering the proximity of these three areas, I'm betting it's by a letter of agreement under FAA Order 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, 4−3−1. Someday, I might get the chance to visit one of the facilities an find out; at least two of the three. Given proximity, PDK is probably included in such a letter.

The best I can tell, I'm being switched from one area to the next while still within the current airspace so I can establish prior to entry. In fact, it's very rare I'm not. If they don't say so, I may hold on to Dobbins a tad longer if I know there's traffic beneath me and not visible. Then I'll ask them for authorization.

Per FAA Order 7110.65, Coordinate Use of Airspace, 2-14-14 (a):

Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller’s area of jurisdiction.

Then there's FAA Order 7110.65, Control Transfer, 2-1-15:

b. Transfer control of an aircraft only after eliminating any potential conflict with other aircraft for which you have separation responsibility.

c. Assume control of an aircraft only after it is in your area of jurisdiction unless specifically coordinated or as specified by letter of agreement or a facility directive.

I have no clue what takes place between these towers. That's not my concern. But, the above is a pretty good indication they are talking. I establish communication prior to entry, I maintain communication while within that airspace do not switch until authorized to do so. And as said before, that is almost always before I reach the adjoining airspace.​

True, but you can listen to the other one so you can flip over and jump in right away.

See above. It ain't happening. The time is too short and it's not worth missing a traffic advisory. Further, do you think Controller A wants you talking to Controller B before there may be a hand-off you're not aware of? Stay with your current controller. Otherwise, you may end up not hearing a much desired traffic advisory or safety alert.​

As a last note, I just gave County ATCT a call. They have an LOA for that short stretch where their airspace meets Dobbins. The guy who answered knows my plane well and is apparently quite used to handling Whiskey-Whiskey. He said they will allow me to do whatever is necessary to conduct my flight as long as it's not a safety issue. The only thing they expect is I stay at or below 3,000 so I'm certain to remain within their airspace which tops out at 3,300.

I'm assuming other letters exist between other airspaces. But, that aspect is not my concern. That affects how they handle traffic; meaning how they will direct my aircraft. Given what I learned during that phone call, it's status quo with no issues existing and none expected.

Okay, I'm done with this discussion.​

 

[KennyFlys]

Actually, there's another reason I'm busting your balls. It's because you said you only have to "notify prior to entry" in this thread which relates not to the airspace you are flying in, but a class C with nothing else around it, which is obviously very much incorrect.

I have no clue where that came from.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It IS Established!!! Just about every time, I get those magic words, "Five-One-Two-Whiskey-Whiskey, Clear to transition Class D as requested." Either way, I get an authorization to enter prior to entry with them using my tail number. Then, communication is maintained while within until authorized to switch. How do you think I get the authorization to switch?

Calm down Kenny. I think that all he was saying is that when posting, it's bad form to use the word "notify" in place of "established 2-way radio communications" (which you in fact did) since newer pilots might think that only half of the required conversation is enough.

 

[jesse]

Just use two com radios and talk to both towers at the same time Otherwise you can always tell the current class D controller you need to leave frequency to coordinate your entry into the next class D.

 

[KennyFlys]

Calm down Kenny. I think that all he was saying is that when posting, it's bad form to use the word "notify" in place of "established 2-way radio communications" (which you in fact did) since newer pilots might think that only half of the required conversation is enough.

It's ok. I've taken my meds now.