C150M useful load?

Peter Ha

Peter Ha

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
226
Display Name
Display name:
Leadpan
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
 
Useful load is gross minus empty.
Assuming the empty weight is still the same as the POH, you have 478 pounds for the sum of people, fuel, and baggage.
 
Check your actual weight and balance sheet signed by an A&P. Useful load is passengers, baggage, and usable fuel.
 
Peter Ha said:
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
Click to expand...

gross weight minus empty weight = useful load

useful load minus fuel load = remaining capacity for people and junk

My 150B was 1500 gross minus 970 or so empty = 530 pounds useful for fuel, people and junk. 22.5 gallons usable means 395 pounds left for people and junk with full fuel tanks.
 
Last edited:
The 120lbs is indicating the max weight that can be back in the baggage area. 478-120 = 358 lbs remaining for bodies and fuel.

Check your most recent weight and balance done on the aircraft though, as it may not be exactly the number(s) in the POH.
 
Two separate numbers.

Your baggage area can only structurally support 120 pounds.

Your airplane can only lift a total of 478 pounds.

How much of the 478 you place in baggage is up to you, as long as it is not more than 120 pounds.
 
jaxcessnadriver said:
The 120lbs is indicating the max weight that can be back in the baggage area. 478-120 = 358 lbs remaining for bodies and fuel.

Check your most recent weight and balance done on the aircraft though, as it may not be exactly the number(s) in the POH.
Click to expand...
Max weight 1600 pounds, empty weight 1104 pounds. Useful load 496. Do the weight and balance to keep plane in CG limits.
edit the Commuter II is 476 useful. Max baggage load 120 pounds
Yes what you posted is correct. 358 pounds if 120 pounds in baggage area
 
Last edited:
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Useful load is gross minus empty.
Assuming the empty weight is still the same as the POH, you have 478 pounds for the sum of people, fuel, and baggage.
Click to expand...

schmookeeg said:
Two separate numbers.

Your baggage area can only structurally support 120 pounds.

Your airplane can only lift a total of 478 pounds.

How much of the 478 you place in baggage is up to you, as long as it is not more than 120 pounds.
Click to expand...

And remember, people + bags + gas cannot exceed the 478#.
 
Like most 2-seat trainers, with full fuel you can carry two "normal" size individuals and a toothbrush for trips. When my wife and I were younger and lighter, we could get away with the two of us and a shared overnight bag in the AA-1A. It's a little easier in the Traveler: we can pack less frugally and bring back our shopping easily. Summer LL Bean runs are fun when you don't have to worry about being over-gross. Especially important when my other half shops...:rolleyes:
 
Peter Ha said:
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
Click to expand...

Important stuff Peter, make sure you understand it, you don't want to be that guy. Find an instructor and go through it.

I had an instructor who would not teach in a 150 because the useful load wouldn't work. If he and I were to be in it, 220 and 190, 410 for the two of us, that would leave 68 pounds for fuel and everything else in your airplane. You also want to make sure you are using the weight for your airplane, not a generic list.
 
Peter Ha said:
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
Click to expand...

That's a backward way of thinking about weight and balance. The airplane fully loaded must weigh less than its maximum allowable gross weight, which for a C150M is 1600 pounds. The 120 lb. baggage area limit is a structural limit for that one area.

For example, Cessna could say the seats in a Cessna 172 can support up to 400 pounds each, that does not mean you can fill it with 1600 lbs worth of people. A weight limit for a specific substructure, and the gross weight and CG of the whole airplane, are separate concerns.
 
 
Last edited:
Useful load = max gross weight - empty weight. The max weight is the max weight, can't ever go over that.

Sometimes there are additional limitations that say you can't put more than so many lbs in different areas which is what your 120lbs is talking about.
 
Work on lightening her up, they all gain weight.

you can make serious gains in useful load by thinking “ounces makes pounds, can that be removed?”

ive lightened my Cessna 140 up considerably, will know officially how much soon and will share when i find out.

but heres a run down of my estimates, not all applicable to the 150 but principle is.

1 grimes landing light, mine had two, got one out 6lbs
Changed to an oddysy battery 17 lbs
Stripped interior of uphostry, extra wires to lorans that were removed, things like that... about 12 Lbs
Wheel pants brackets 1lb

redoing the seats now, the seat back was horsehair (heavy shtuff there) the uphostry was aweful ugly thick stuff someone put over the originals, maybe 3-5lbs...

So 35-40lbs... reweigh will be interesting... i have maybe $1000 over a year for the upgrades... and the interior looks nice naked, sound did not change, im in MI and its still fine inside in the cold, not much change... with as many leaks as my old girl has insulation mattered little...

look at the extras that build up over time... talk to your A&p/IA if you question if something can go...

Our 2 seat cessnas are great birds, and you can increase their capability without going to the poor house...
 
Assuming 478 which probably isn't the actual useful load is essentially full fuel and two 170 pounders and 3 pounds to spare.

That being said planes very rarely hit their advertised empty weight.
 
I don't mean to sound harsh, but how do you buy an airplane and not understand the answer to this question?

How can you be a pilot and not know this? It's just about the first thing you ever learn about aircraft.

I don't get it....
 
Peter Ha said:
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
Click to expand...
 
My 150 m commuter was a lot of fun and came with a owner's manual that covered a lot of things including weight and balance. Check your log book for your plane. Lots of other charts for most everything. Unlike the darter, it has weight balance-- and minimal other info lots of difference between 1965 and 1975. As far as engineering data. How fatis owners manual for a new plane.
 
Lndwarrior said:
I don't mean to sound harsh, but how do you buy an airplane and not understand the answer to this question?

How can you be a pilot and not know this? It's just about the first thing you ever learn about aircraft.

I don't get it....
Click to expand...

The things my CFIs never taught me are legion. Particularly type-specific things, such as all of the odd placards and markings that exist around an aircraft. Particularly a placard like "MAX WEIGHT 120 POUNDS" in a plane that itself weighs very little. I don't know how I would put 120 pounds in the rear of a C150. :D

At least he asked the question rather than just wondering for the rest of his aviation career.
 
Lndwarrior said:
I don't mean to sound harsh, but how do you buy an airplane and not understand the answer to this question?

How can you be a pilot and not know this? It's just about the first thing you ever learn about aircraft.

I don't get it....
Click to expand...

It's not a mystery.

It's possible for someone to purchase an airplane before becoming a pilot.
 
chemgeek said:
..... Summer LL Bean runs are fun when you don't have to worry about being over-gross. Especially important when my other half shops...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

As my bride said to me on one of our flying/shopping adventures, "everybody ships" o_O
 
Peter Ha said:
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
Click to expand...
If you have 120 lbs back there, you have 358 lbs left for passengers, fuel and oil.
I used to own a c150g, and I had to deal with that type of w&b issue regularly. Some options:

1. As @Huckster79 said, put the plane on a diet.

2. Put yourself on a diet. I improved my w&b issue the most while I had my c150g by losing 25 lbs myself. Better w&b / better health, win/win.

3. Fly over gross. I wouldn’t recommend anyone do this, but as I former c150 owner, ahem, I also know it happens. There was a time I was flying with my significant other, and when at our destination she went on a big spending spree. The ride home, with full fuel, was interesting, and not recommended!
 
GMascelli said:
As my bride said to me on one of our flying/shopping adventures, "everybody ships" o_O
Click to expand...

Yeah that came up when she was looking at a tandem kayak...THAT ain't gonna fit even in cargo configuration. :eek:
 
Doubt it is an issue with the 150M but the other thing to consider is CG. In my 1957 172 the CG is really far forward and to get it in the envelope even with two normal FAA 170 pounders (I am not normal) in the front you have to carry ballast in the the baggage area. With two larger people in the front you have to carry partial fuel and as much as 100 pounds in the back to make the CG work.
 
Lndwarrior said:
I don't mean to sound harsh, but how do you buy an airplane and not understand the answer to this question?

How can you be a pilot and not know this? It's just about the first thing you ever learn about aircraft.

I don't get it....
Click to expand...
People forget. I haven't had to use most of what I learned 'back in the day', and it would be tough (and useless) to learn it all. Many people rent 172s for carrying a couple of people, and never worry about the W&B. I kind of got in that mode unless I was carrying a full load (which I did, once.)
Of course, if the OP just got his ticket, then ... never mind!
 
OK, I spoke too soon. Consider myself properly chastised...
 
I ran through all the W&B scenarios for my Hatz and concluded that what I'd heard is true, it can lift pretty much anything that fits in it, so I never have to worry about it. Unless the baggage compartment was filled with gold bullion, but if I could afford gold bullion I'd probably be carrying it in a different airplane...
 
Or don't put full fuel in it. I learned at BJC (~6000') in 152s. We never used full tanks unless we were going crosscountry. The standard fuel order was to add 3 gal/side after each student lesson.

That being said, a 152 at gross will outclimb perform a 172 at gross. Of course, the gross is a lot smaller. I still remember turning crosswind after my first solo takeoff and having the tower controller inquire "Doesn't it fly a whole lot better without that fat guy in the right seat."
 
schmookeeg said:
The things my CFIs never taught me are legion. Particularly type-specific things, such as all of the odd placards and markings that exist around an aircraft. Particularly a placard like "MAX WEIGHT 120 POUNDS" in a plane that itself weighs very little. I don't know how I would put 120 pounds in the rear of a C150. :D

At least he asked the question rather than just wondering for the rest of his aviation career.
Click to expand...

120 pounds is the max weight in baggage area #1. I have a rear child seat in my 150 and it is limited to someone that weighs 110 pounds. Fine for my child at 35-40 pounds right now.

We also did some lightening work, odyssey battery, removed the broken CDI and clock, VOR antennas, dirty carpet etc. There is more to do for sure. After the weigh in with the new child seat, the plane was 5 pounds heavier. Not bad since the last weigh was in 1994. They all gain weight over time, so I was happy that after adding 10 pounds of a new seat, we only gained 5 pounds overall.
 
Thanks folks!
I’ll definitely begin lightening my 150. :)
 
Peter Ha said:
Hi folks,
I bought 1975 C150M recently.
POH says useful load is 478 lbs and 120 lbs baggage.
Does that mean pilot and passenger must be less then 478 lbs AND allow for 120 lbs baggage area?
Click to expand...
There is a difference between the POH and the most recent Weight & Balance report. The POH is from the manufacturer when it went out of the factory. Each change made, such as avionics, interiors, etc, may change the Official W&B report. Hence a new W&B report must be created by the A&P, and kept in the airplane. So, is the 478 pounds from the POH or from the most recent W&B?

Next time you're stuck at home due to a miserable storm (or fire) go thru ALL the log books from Day 1. Create an excel spreadsheet with item, weight, date of install (or original), date of removal (if needed) and any notes you want. Every time the shop (or you) do something, after it's in the log book, then add it to the spreadsheet.

Example: in my cherokee, the original radio was a Narco MK 12 so the entries that relate to it are:

Narco MK12 12 1969-June-1 2000-Dec-1 and removed back tray behind the bulkhead
TKM MK12D 5 2000-Dec-1 2020-Feb-1 removed for new GPS with COM
GPS 335 4 2020-Feb-1 xxx yaaaa!

The reason I emphasize tracking the weight is to keep a running total for your W&B.

Suggestion - if you don't already have a copy, get the TCDS for your airplane. It has the legal ARM and other important details.

http://150cessna.tripod.com/3a19.pdf (150M starts on pg 8)

By the way, do you have this booklet? Not legal as a POH but handy to have:

http://wmflyingclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Cessna_150M_Manual.pdf

As for the 120 pounds, there's been numerous correct answer already in this thread.
 
Last edited:
DFH65 said:
Doubt it is an issue with the 150M but the other thing to consider is CG. In my 1957 172 the CG is really far forward and to get it in the envelope even with two normal FAA 170 pounders (I am not normal) in the front you have to carry ballast in the the baggage area. With two larger people in the front you have to carry partial fuel and as much as 100 pounds in the back to make the CG work.
Click to expand...

There must be several W&B amendments since 1957, and any one of them could be wrong on the CG. The mechanic only has to make a simple mistake with plus or minus depending whether the weight was ahead or behind the datum (the firewall) or an arithmetic error in addition or subtraction. I have found several W&B's out to lunch that way, and sometimes the only recourse is an actual re-weigh.

I once came across a Taylorcraft whose W&B showed a useful load of 120 pounds. A really badly figured document, that one.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There must be several W&B amendments since 1957, and any one of them could be wrong on the CG. The mechanic only has to make a simple mistake with plus or minus depending whether the weight was ahead or behind the datum (the firewall) or an arithmetic error in addition or subtraction. I have found several W&B's out to lunch that way, and sometimes the only recourse is an actual re-weigh.

I once came across a Taylorcraft whose W&B showed a useful load of 120 pounds. A really badly figured document, that one.
Click to expand...

Agree, we just bought this in September and plan to weigh it this summer after we pull some old radios and such which will help a little. I have been through the logs with a fine tooth comb assuming it is right from the factory I believe most of the additions have been accounted for and look to be correct based on the 337s. There is even one noting a math correction from a previous 337 but it didn't change things much. Having said that an inch or two back farther would make W&B a lot easier. One other tip if you have a big passenger and you have them sit back a couple inches it makes a difference in W&B and gives you more shoulder room.
 
murphey said:
There is a difference between the POH and the most recent Weight & Balance report. The POH is from the manufacturer when it went out of the factory. Each change made, such as avionics, interiors, etc, may change the Official W&B report. Hence a new W&B report must be created by the A&P, and kept in the airplane. So, is the 478 pounds from the POH or from the most recent W&B?

Next time you're stuck at home due to a miserable storm (or fire) go thru ALL the log books from Day 1. Create an excel spreadsheet with item, weight, date of install (or original), date of removal (if needed) and any notes you want. Every time the shop (or you) do something, after it's in the log book, then add it to the spreadsheet.

Example: in my cherokee, the original radio was a Narco MK 12 so the entries that relate to it are:

Narco MK12 12 1969-June-1 2000-Dec-1 and removed back tray behind the bulkhead
TKM MK12D 5 2000-Dec-1 2020-Feb-1 removed for new GPS with COM
GPS 335 4 2020-Feb-1 xxx yaaaa!

The reason I emphasize tracking the weight is to keep a running total for your W&B.

Suggestion - if you don't already have a copy, get the TCDS for your airplane. It has the legal ARM and other important details.

http://150cessna.tripod.com/3a19.pdf (150M starts on pg 8)

By the way, do you have this booklet? Not legal as a POH but handy to have:

http://wmflyingclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Cessna_150M_Manual.pdf

As for the 120 pounds, there's been numerous correct answer already in this thread.
Click to expand...

i would spring for a reweigh before doing that... especially flying a vintage bird Id need days, and unlogged work still changes things, not saying its right but over 7+ decades Id wager mine has had a repair that didn’t make it in... or the 20 entries that say they didn't

DFH65 said:
Agree, we just bought this in September and plan to weigh it this summer after we pull some old radios and such which will help a little. I have been through the logs with a fine tooth comb assuming it is right from the factory I believe most of the additions have been accounted for and look to be correct based on the 337s. There is even one noting a math correction from a previous 337 but it didn't change things much. Having said that an inch or two back farther would make W&B a lot easier. One other tip if you have a big passenger and you have them sit back a couple inches it makes a difference in W&B and gives you more shoulder room.
Click to expand...

change things appreciably add up as well...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top