C150 or C152

[Dan Thomas]

A lot of corrosion can happen in 5 years.

You can oil mist, pickle, use storage rated oil in the engine to allow it to sit for long periods of time. Age may or may not be an issue, but I would guess less people prep a plane for storage than do.

An engine can sit for considerable time without corrosion, if it's undisturbed. It's the guys that go out and ground-run their engines that get the severe corrosion. Way worse than environmental moisture. There is so little unoccupied cubic volume in that crankcase that temperature changes, even in moist air, results in very little air exchange and condensation in the case.

The A-65 in my Jodel sat for at least ten years in an unheated barn that was on marshy ground. The worst possible place, right, other than salt spray? There was no corrosion in it. It wasn't being ground-run. And I have encountered low-time engine that are trash because the owners kept ground-running them instead of flying them.

 

[Grum.Man]

An engine can sit for considerable time without corrosion, if it's undisturbed. It's the guys that go out and ground-run their engines that get the severe corrosion. Way worse than environmental moisture. There is so little unoccupied cubic volume in that crankcase that temperature changes, even in moist air, results in very little air exchange and condensation in the case.

The A-65 in my Jodel sat for at least ten years in an unheated barn that was on marshy ground. The worst possible place, right, other than salt spray? There was no corrosion in it. It wasn't being ground-run. And I have encountered low-time engine that are trash because the owners kept ground-running them instead of flying them.

I think just about anyone in the industry disagrees with the idea an engine can sit a considerable amount of time without corrosion. Sure some get lucky but as soon as the oil film has run off the metal will start rusting anywhere there is humidity. Continentals less so due to the fact that oil will continue to drip onto the cam. I just find it perplexing that people will avoid a plane like the plague with a 2500 hour engine unless it’s value priced but are totally fine with a 600 hour 30 year old engine.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

... but are totally fine with a 600 hour 30 year old engine.

My engine was exactly that. I've put on another 700 hours and still have excellent compression and perfect oil sample analysis. It's almost like "it depends", and there are no absolutes or guaranteed with ANY engine. 1 hour and 1 day after overhaul or 30 years and 1500 hours.

 

[Grum.Man]

My engine was exactly that. I've put on another 700 hours and still have excellent compression and perfect oil sample analysis. It's almost like "it depends", and there are no absolutes or guaranteed with ANY engine. 1 hour and 1 day after overhaul or 30 years and 1500 hours.

And that's fine and if you priced it accordingly you are getting bonus time. My 550 is old and so far is running great but it is still a runout engine even with only 550 hours. I've also seen plenty of old engines with such severe rust pitting they cant be saved. Lycoming, Continental, Mike Bush, etc. all strongly believe an idle engine is much worse off than a high time one yet as consumers we prioritize the opposite when appraising a planes value.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

And that's fine and if you priced it accordingly you are getting bonus time. My 550 is old and so far is running great but it is still a runout engine even with only 550 hours. I've also seen plenty of old engines with such severe rust pitting they cant be saved. Lycoming, Continental, Mike Bush, etc. all strongly believe an idle engine is much worse off than a high time one yet as consumers we prioritize the opposite when appraising a planes value.

Long story short, all I'm trying to say is to inspect and price an engine based on condition (compressions, visible corrosion, oil analysis, history), rather than based on numbers (age/hours).

 

[Grum.Man]

Long story short, all I'm trying to say is to inspect and price an engine based on condition (compressions, visible corrosion, oil analysis, history), rather than based on numbers (age/hours).

And I believe the opposite because who is going to let you pull a cylinder to inspect the internals? The manufacturer has made it easy, they assigned a life span based on their extensive testing. Sure if you want to continue to run the engine based on the data that is fine but in my book the value is already determined. We have derailed the thread long enough so I'll get off the soap box. Congrats to the OP I think he made the wise choice!

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Long story short, all I'm trying to say is to inspect and price an engine based on condition (compressions, visible corrosion, oil analysis, history), rather than based on numbers (age/hours).

Well, that depends on if you're the seller or buyer ;-)

 

[Dan Thomas]

Nope, not everybody in the industry disagrees with engines sitting being all bad. My experience as a mechanic tells me that sitting is far better than ground-running. That A-65 in my Jodel was built in 1946 and has maybe 1200 hours on it, total.

Ram Aviation talks about the worst thing you can do, at around the three-minute mark:

Note: that picture above is not from an engine that sat or was ground-run. It was part of a saltwater spray test to check the effectiveness of anticorrosion stuff.

 

[Grum.Man]

Nope, not everybody in the industry disagrees with engines sitting being all bad. My experience as a mechanic tells me that sitting is far better than ground-running. That A-65 in my Jodel was built in 1946 and has maybe 1200 hours on it, total.

Ram Aviation talks about the worst thing you can do, at around the three-minute mark:

Note: that picture above is not from an engine that sat or was ground-run. It was part of a saltwater spray test to check the effectiveness of anticorrosion stuff.

Well I never said anything about ground running so that's a different topic. At the end of the day if the engine is going to be sitting a few months it should be pickled. While ground running can introduce moisture it also re-applies an oil film to protect the metal. A continental's life can be extended by just turning it over on the starter without actually starting it as it will push oil back onto everything, Lycoming not so much unless it has oil squirtters on the cam.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Well I never said anything about ground running so that's a different topic. At the end of the day if the engine is going to be sitting a few months it should be pickled. While ground running can introduce moisture it also re-applies an oil film to protect the metal. A continental's life can be extended by just turning it over on the starter without actually starting it as it will push oil back onto everything, Lycoming not so much unless it has oil squirtters on the cam.

Ground-running pumps a lot of water vapor and other corrosive combustion byproducts past the large clearances in a cold engine, and those get mixed with the oil and are left on those metal surfaces. So "coating the parts with oil" during a ground run is coating them with corrosive junk.

This is well covered in Continental's and Lycoming's publications. They also recommend that you do not turn that prop, as the rings just scrape off whatever oil film is left and now the metal is further unprotected. The oil pump does nothing whatever at hand-prop speeds. Nothing. The cylinder, in any case, are lubricated by oil thrown off a running crankshaft, and hand-moving the prop does nothing that way. The lifter/cam interfaces are among the most-highly loaded in the whole engine, and rotating that prop just adds wear, as no oil is reaching them there either.

So much "advice" by non-mechanics is totally wrong. This is not an intuition-driven business. There is far more going on with oil, water, acids heat, cold and everything else than most people realize. Water vapor is a byproduct of combustion, and a gallon of gasoline, when burned, can produce 1.4 gallons of water. Oxygen combined with hydrogen from the hydrocarbon (gasoline) makes water. Most of it goes out the exhaust, but in an engine not at operating temperatures, some is blown past the rings and into the case, where it condenses and mixes with the oil, forming an emulsion. In the presence of catalyzing metals, it creates sulfuric, nitric and hydrochloric acids that eat that engine. Cars have PCV systems to scavenge water and other byproducts out; aircraft engines do not, due to the lack of manifold vacuum 95% of the time. That airplane engine is not a car engine and can't be run like one.

Once again, the facts from the people who build these things and are liable for their failures:

https://www.lycoming.com/content/frequency-flight-and-its-affect-engine

https://www.lycoming.com/content/low-time-engine-may-not-mean-quality-and-value

 

[Grum.Man]

Ground-running pumps a lot of water vapor and other corrosive combustion byproducts past the large clearances in a cold engine, and those get mixed with the oil and are left on those metal surfaces. So "coating the parts with oil" during a ground run is coating them with corrosive junk.

This is well covered in Continental's and Lycoming's publications. They also recommend that you do not turn that prop, as the rings just scrape off whatever oil film is left and now the metal is further unprotected. The oil pump does nothing whatever at hand-prop speeds. Nothing. The cylinder, in any case, are lubricated by oil thrown off a running crankshaft, and hand-moving the prop does nothing that way. The lifter/cam interfaces are among the most-highly loaded in the whole engine, and rotating that prop just adds wear, as no oil is reaching them there either.

So much "advice" by non-mechanics is totally wrong. This is not an intuition-driven business. There is far more going on with oil, water, acids heat, cold and everything else than most people realize. Water vapor is a byproduct of combustion, and a gallon of gasoline, when burned, can produce 1.4 gallons of water. Oxygen combined with hydrogen from the hydrocarbon (gasoline) makes water. Most of it goes out the exhaust, but in an engine not at operating temperatures, some is blown past the rings and into the case, where it condenses and mixes with the oil, forming an emulsion. In the presence of catalyzing metals, it creates sulfuric, nitric and hydrochloric acids that eat that engine. Cars have PCV systems to scavenge water and other byproducts out; aircraft engines do not, due to the lack of manifold vacuum 95% of the time. That airplane engine is not a car engine and can't be run like one.

Once again, the facts from the people who build these things and are liable for their failures:

https://www.lycoming.com/content/frequency-flight-and-its-affect-engine

https://www.lycoming.com/content/low-time-engine-may-not-mean-quality-and-value

Well once again I made no mention of turning it over by hand so the devils are in the details. Running it on the starter will in fact build oil pressure and is enough rpm to sling some oil into the cylinders and on a continental will drip lubricate the cam and lifters. As I also said, this will not help on a Lycoming unless it is a model with oil squirtters. I do appreciate you linking Lycoming's take on the matter. As I've said previously, they are much more concerned about age than hours while the buying public seems to be stuck on the opposite. So far every seller that I've spoken to has no idea there is a calendar time as well as hours associated with TBO. With all of the resources at our disposal these days there is no excuse.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

So far every seller that I've spoken to has no idea there is a calendar time as well as hours associated with TBO.

lol... do you call sellers and lecture them on TBO?

 

[Grum.Man]

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/attachments/Pre-Oiling%2520Engine%2520Prior%2520to%2520Initial%2520Start.pdf

TIME OF COMPLIANCE: Prior to initial start after engine change, overhaul, oil cooler replacement ordraining or any prolonged period of inactivity.

 

[Grum.Man]

lol... do you call sellers and lecture them on TBO?

Lecture no, but if I make an offer or they ask why I am not interested I tell them why. The last person I spoke to went on an unprovoked rant about getting low ball offers and didn't understand why. I simply told him my concern was that the engine was nearly 3 times recommended TBO with only 600 hours so naturally there will be corrosion concerns. He was adamant that it was not past TBO until I showed him the Lycoming SB on TBO.

 

[Tusayan]

When it comes to calendar time between overhauls the devil really is in the details, and I don’t believe there is any truly authoritative source that can cover all those details without inspection for an engine you might be looking to purchase.

My Lycoming has gone from 3X to 4X recommended calendar time between overhauls since I’ve owned it. I played the calendar time card with the seller (and other things) to reduce the price of the plane by 30% but in reality its never needed much over the last 13 years. It was a good buy.

The engine has been run sporadically for 1100 hrs since 1971, and never overhauled. Some people say they built them better then, but that’s also a matter of opinion. Cylinder leakage is fine, power is fine, oil consumption is 9 hrs/qt and it leaks only a trace amount of oil. I don’t expect it to make 2000 hr TBO (but it might) and there’s an equal likelihood that regardless of hours I’ll be dead by the time it needs to come apart.

One man’s real data point.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Running it on the starter will in fact build oil pressure and is enough rpm to sling some oil into the cylinders....

Nope. An O-360, for example, has a 4-3/8" stroke, meaning that the crank's rod journals are centered on a 2-3/16" radius, with another inch or so to the outside of the crank cheek. The starter won't crank it at more than maybe 150 RPM, and that small radius, with cold oil, isn't going to fling anything very far at all. We used to take all the plugs out of a new engine after installing it and motor the starter to fill the galleries with oil, and unloaded like that it still didn't turn very fast, maybe 250 RPM. Even then it took some time to build pressure. Idling at 700 RPM is a different matter altogether, as centrifugal forces increase by the square of the increase in RPM.

See how long you have to crank it to get oil pressure. And remember that starters aren't effectively cooled and get dangerously hot, enough to burn out windings, if the manufacturer's instructions aren't followed. An example is found in an Aviation Consumer article:

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

In the automotive world we don’t use the starter to pre-oil a newly assembled engine. We pre-oil in order to fill all the oil galleys with oil prior to fire-up.

I think part of that is also to keep the journals from running on bearings that just have assembly lube on em. Plus, there’s some compression-stroke pressure transferred to the bottom end, which arguably may only cause human angst rather than parts west/damage (I take the safe road).

I built a tool (they sell em) that allows me to use my drill to spin up the oil pump. You’d be surprised how long it takes to drag down the drill which is when oil starts flowing then filling. It takes a while to get an oil pressure reading.

You could test this with your plane. Ground the mags and crank (or with an IO- just crank with no mixture). If oil pressure registers, you’re good. But for my mill, it takes about 4-5 seconds AFTER start up for oil pressure to register. It starts in 1-2 turns though.

Not sure if this adds to the conversation or not, but here you go.

 

[Grum.Man]

Nope. An O-360, for example, has a 4-3/8" stroke, meaning that the crank's rod journals are centered on a 2-3/16" radius, with another inch or so to the outside of the crank cheek. The starter won't crank it at more than maybe 150 RPM, and that small radius, with cold oil, isn't going to fling anything very far at all. We used to take all the plugs out of a new engine after installing it and motor the starter to fill the galleries with oil, and unloaded like that it still didn't turn very fast, maybe 250 RPM. Even then it took some time to build pressure. Idling at 700 RPM is a different matter altogether, as centrifugal forces increase by the square of the increase in RPM.

See how long you have to crank it to get oil pressure. And remember that starters aren't effectively cooled and get dangerously hot, enough to burn out windings, if the manufacturer's instructions aren't followed. An example is found in an Aviation Consumer article:

View attachment 120165

Lol ok dude

 

[ahmad]

Ouch, my wallet is already hurting. There's a bunch more to do but she's going to look good when I'm done.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

You probably already know this, but if money were tight, I’d get the airframe issues squared away first and worry about avionics later (can’t remember if you’re deep into IFR flying).

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

You probably already know this, but if money were tight, I’d get the airframe issues squared away first and worry about avionics later (can’t remember if you’re deep into IFR flying).

Agreed. Suggest do all the non-avionic issues then fly maybe 100 hrs before considering, deciding and scheduling the avionics. That will give you time to get a better feel if there are more priority areas for additional expenditures.

 

[ahmad]

Aaah a little stressful to spend the $$ because it is all happening at once plus the business quarterly taxes are due but I think I'll recover. Went ahead and forked out the cash hesitantly. Going to go Dave Ramsey style of life for the next few months to build the capital back up. Probably wont be flying it for several weeks.

 

[Pilawt]

That's a 150J, the 1969 model. One of the better years, still fairly light weight without a lot of the unnecessary trim doo-dads Cessna glopped onto the 150 in the 1970s to make it look like one of their bigger models.

The 150J was the first model of the 150 that had a key-operated electric starter, and that was the source of some problems. If that's the worst that can be said about an airplane, that's not too shabby, is it? Some 150J owners had the key-operated starter replaced with a pull-starter as on earlier models, but I don't know how difficult a job that is.

 

[Steamflyer]

Congrats on the nice bird. If you get that whole punch list done for 1k I want the mechanic’s number! Guessing closer to 3k, but do let us know.

 

[Steamflyer]

IMHO if you are getting a WAAS navigator and a 275, make the latter an HSI version and the former the #1 nav

 

[Zeldman]

Ouch, my wallet is already hurting. There's a bunch more to do but she's going to look good when I'm done.

But you own an airplane so you must be super rich...

Actually the sales tax percentage made me flinch.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The 150J was the first model of the 150 that had a key-operated electric starter, and that was the source of some problems. If that's the worst that can be said about an airplane, that's not too shabby, is it? Some 150J owners had the key-operated starter replaced with a pull-starter as on earlier models, but I don't know how difficult a job that is.

The key starter used a Sprague clutch in the reduction gearing on the starter mount. That's because the gear that drives the crankshaft is always engaged and must be allowed to spin freely at considerable RPM as the engine is running. The old pull-type starter had a lever on the starter itself that shove the starter reduction gear forward on its shaft to engage the crank gear, and was disengaged otherwise. There was a big switch on the starter, pushed by the lever, that energized it once the lever had the gear engaged. No Sprague clutch on that one.

It was that Sprague clutch on the key-start that caused the problems. It used little cams that grabbed the internal shaft when the starter turned. Oily shiny stuff trying to grab oily shiny stuff. The cams would wear and the contact area increased so that oil would have more lubricity between those bits and the thing would slip. Some modern oils, like Aeroshell 15W50, with its wonderful anti-scuffing additive, would also sometimes cause that problem. This is a place where friction is beneficial.

Skytec and B&C make modern permanent-magnet starters that use a solenoid to engage the gearing. Much lighter, and gets past the problems. Bolt it on, connect the cable, do the STC paperwork and W&B amendment, and go fly.

 

[HornedFrogGrant]

Here are the pics.

Congrats, good looking plane, I hope you enjoy the heck out of it!

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Actually the sales tax percentage made me flinch.

Go to Canada and look at that line. You’ll get a full blown heart attack.

 

[Tusayan]

Canada is half way between Europe and the US in many things, including sales tax rates.

US - 0-10% depending on location
Canada - about 15%
Europe - about 20%

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Canada is half way between Europe and the US in many things, including sales tax rates.

US - 0-10% depending on location
Canada - about 15%
Europe - about 20%

There are some exceptions to this. Alberta for example doesn't have a provincial tax so anything bought in that province only has the federal tax which is 5%. In other provinces, you usually have the federal tax which is always 5% + a provincial tax (6-10%). Having said that, some products or services are provincial tax exempt so for those your total sales tax is still 5% even outside of Alberta, while for everything else it would be between 11 and 15%. Aircraft maintenance is not exempt :-( And lastly, you have the eastern provinces (Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, Nfld/Lab) that combined provincial and federal taxes into what they call "harmonized sales tax" which is between 13-15%. In those provinces, that's what you always pay for everything.

 

[ahmad]

Updating this thread for the interested minds.

So the plane was handed to the FBO on Aug 26. After 2+ months they finally finished. When I saw the invoices I almost had a heart attack.

The original estimate was 16k for installation of the GNX375 and GI275. Another estimate of $1000 to fix some other "minor" stuff.

The avionics estimate ended up being close and at 19k (found out the pitot tube needed to be replaced and I bought a heated pitot tube). Ok 19k over 16k. whatever. it's close enough.


Now the 1k estimate ended up being off. Way off. It ended being 10k which includes a $3000 discount. They did discover a bunch of other issues with the wings and elevators but I still didn't think it would be that much more. The parts were the cheap part. I got hit with 120 hrs of labor at $90-95 per hr and a discount for 3k which is another 30 hrs.

honestly, I feel like I got gouged. they did do a bunch of work but I don't think it was 150 hrs of labor. I was pretty upset about it but didn't raise hell because I am based out of this field and didn't want to get into long term issues. to top it off I noticed the directional gyro is not working after I flew it yesterday. ugh

I bought the plane for 30k and the spent 30k on top. I thought I was being smart buying a cheap plane to build 800 flight hrs. I am self grounded for some time to build some capital now. lol

 

[ahmad]

Before and after.
Feels like lipstick on a pig but I needed it to have a transponder and IFR capability.

 

[Grum.Man]

If it makes you feel better, you could have bought a more expensive one and ran into the same problems. I'd wager most know it's better to buy a plane that already has the upgrades you want versus paying to have them done. Go out and enjoy your investment!

 

[Mikey52]

Well, as small as these things are, and locations that require a contortionist, it's taken me an hour just to replace a couple bolts or nuts.

 

[Zeldman]

However you feel about the cost, it looks good.!!

Now all you need is that all important C-150 type rating...

 

[guest user]

Updates look good. What did that do for you weight wise when all said and done?

Note though that unless you think you could have gotten all of that for the 152 for $5k, you're still ahead of the curve in price.

As with everybody else, I wish you a long tenure as the owner and a quick success in reaching your hour goals.

 

[ahmad]

Updates look good. What did that do for you weight wise when all said and done?

Note though that unless you think you could have gotten all of that for the 152 for $5k, you're still ahead of the curve in price.

As with everybody else, I wish you a long tenure as the owner and a quick success in reaching your hour goals.

Thank you. Flew it a bunch of hours this past weekend. Flies great but I am still trying to figure out everything in it. I am having trouble with couple of things with the avionics.
1. I can not get the traffic to display on my IPAD on foreflight even though I have the GNX375 paired via bluetooth. Traffic shows on moving map on GNX375 but not on my ipad. Everything else (weather etc) is showing on my ipad.
2. The GI275 works exactly how I expect it when tracking the localizer. However, when I tune a VOR into my NAV1(goes with the GI275) it is not tracking or showing the VOR radials like I expect it on the GI275 with the CDI switched to VOR. I did a little research and I think I have to make sure the CDI on the GI275 is on VOR more PLUS I have to go into GNX375 and change the OBS mode to VOR to make it work?!?


All in all I like it. Only thing I dont like is the useful load (still 475 lbs) and it is slow as hell. lol
In the end if nothing breaks down getting my 800 hrs in this 150 ($60/HR operational cost..gas and $ towards overhaul) vs renting the 172 at $135/Hr will save me a ton of $$. Starting my commercial traing this week.

 

[Salty]

Thank you. Flew it a bunch of hours this past weekend. Flies great but I am still trying to figure out everything in it. I am having trouble with couple of things with the avionics.
1. I can not get the traffic to display on my IPAD on foreflight even though I have the GNX375 paired via bluetooth. Traffic shows on moving map on GNX375 but not on my ipad. Everything else (weather etc) is showing on my ipad.
2. The GI275 works exactly how I expect it when tracking the localizer. However, when I tune a VOR into my NAV1(goes with the GI275) it is not tracking or showing the VOR radials like I expect it on the GI275 with the CDI switched to VOR. I did a little research and I think I have to make sure the CDI on the GI275 is on VOR more PLUS I have to go into GNX375 and change the OBS mode to VOR to make it work?!?


All in all I like it. Only thing I dont like is the useful load (still 475 lbs) and it is slow as hell. lol
In the end if nothing breaks down getting my 800 hrs in this 150 ($60/HR operational cost..gas and $ towards overhaul) vs renting the 172 at $135/Hr will save me a ton of $$. Starting my commercial traing this week.

1. Make sure you have the traffic overlay turned on.

 

[ahmad]

1. Make sure you have the traffic overlay turned on.

I do. Still not getting it.