Buying and logs...

[James331]

IOWs you can't answer the question.

Cya.

IOW you and I, as well as most people, are so far apart in our thinking it's not worth the time to even try to explain it to you.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Maybe the seller could be bothered after you've placed a nice deposit in escrow?



dtuuri

If the Selller is going to "negotiate" with multiple Buyers during the listing and selling of the plane, why doesn't the Seller just take 20 minutes on Day 1 of listing and scan the log books?

Get it done, just like washing the plane, and vacuuming the carpet. Then you are equal to other Sellers.

Scanning logbooks is a 1-time activity, and you could then share with MANY buyers.

Let's be honest here, go scroll thru TradeAPlane and look at how many sellers only put 1 or 2 pictures up on their listing. If you are trying to sell something, provide the most amount of information, it makes buyers more likely to buy.

I travelled to a plane, met the nicest gentleman, had a spotless hangar full of his motor home, hobbies, and a 182. He said he couldn't scan the logbooks, so I looked at them in his hangar.

In 1979 was an entry "Installed Wings". No signature.

No reason why.

In 2014 there was an entry "Installed Sportsmanship Leading edge on wing" signed by an Ap.

The paint on the leading edge was 15+ years old.

Turns out, for some reason, not disclosed, the plane had to get new wings.

They installed newer 182 wings with the different leading edge.

The mechanic, getting the plane ready to sell, decided the easiest fix was to say he installed the Sportsman Leading Edge so that the wing would "match" what was on the plane.

If I had prior access to log books, I could have questioned the sudden " installed wings" for no reason entry in 1979, then the recent " work" without any actual physical effort, or paint.

Turns out the guy had sold the plane before, and he told me he "got it back". Yeah, he got it back when a Judge told him to refund the money on a previous sale when a Buyer, somehow, used the logs/wings to rescind the previous transaction. ( not sure how that worked, but it filled in some gaps in the timeline).

Bottom line, he wasted my time traveling to see his plane, I wasted his time looking and asking questions to fill in gaps that the logbooks hinted at.

 

[Kristin]

Maybe the seller could be bothered after you've placed a nice deposit in escrow?

dtuuri

That is typically up to buyer who is my client. However, the next plane I purchase, if more than a couple of hundred miles away, I am going to want to see a copy of the portions of the logs I mentioned. No deposit unless it seriously may be a screaming deal and I don't want to lose it. Otherwise, I have ruled out too many aircraft without leaving the comfort of my own office. The percentages are too high to put money out just to get a seller to do what they should be doing anyway.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Tell me what could be in a maintenance record that is over 2 years old that would show current material condition?
Don't tell me AD compliance because we know that is a Fantasy.

How about a scenario along the lines of...."No Damage History" and then there is an entry about structural repairs to a wing.

The repairs could be normal, or they could be fixing damage that the seller didn't report. Now that I know there was a structural repair, I am naturally going to want to investigate it much more closely on a pre-buy to make sure the root cause was addressed.

IF this is a common model and there are 40 others listed on T-A-P, I might not want to spend the time and money to look any further.

 

[Tom-D]

How about a scenario along the lines of...."No Damage History" and then there is an entry about structural repairs to a wing.

The repairs could be normal, or they could be fixing damage that the seller didn't report. Now that I know there was a structural repair, I am naturally going to want to investigate it much more closely on a pre-buy to make sure the root cause was addressed.

IF this is a common model and there are 40 others listed on T-A-P, I might not want to spend the time and money to look any further.

Which is more important? Knowing the the damage was repaired correctly, and has been flying properly, OR what was written long ago?
Who really cares what the seller said. Are you buying the aircraft or the sellers reputation?

 

[Stewartb]

my attitude is that the discovery of repairs should lead the mechanic to review the log entry, not the other way around.

 

[Fearless Tower]

my attitude is that the discovery of repairs should lead the mechanic to review the log entry, not the other way around.

Maybe, but if the potential buyer is trying to weed through multiple prospects, he may very well discover the log entry before ever seeing the airplane.

 

[Stewartb]

what difference would it make if he did? That's the whole issue. The plane is the subject. The log entries aren't useful in establishing condition.

 

[Tom-D]

my attitude is that the discovery of repairs should lead the mechanic to review the log entry, not the other way around.

In that case, I'd be looking for the 337 in the aircraft history records. Proper documentation of repairs is important, but the log is not the only place to document it.

 

[Tom-D]

what difference would it make if he did? That's the whole issue. The plane is the subject. The log entries aren't useful in establishing condition.

Exactly. What was written long ago, does not indicate what the aircraft is now.

 

[Fearless Tower]

what difference would it make if he did? That's the whole issue. The plane is the subject. The log entries aren't useful in establishing condition.

You are right, but how useful the logs are depends on a lot of things.

How I approached the purchase of my B55 Baron was vastly different from the 1933 Waco that I bought a year later.

When an owner or broker 2-3000 miles away doesn't want to share something in advance like logbooks, my pessimistic mind automatically asks 'are they hiding something?'

When there are over 40 other B55's listed for sale around the country at the same time....guess which one I'm going to cross off my list? It might be a great bird, but there are plenty others just like it.

A 1930's biplane that was just completely rebuilt and there were only 20 ever made of that model and there is maybe one other on the market at the time? I'll spend the money to travel and look at it regardless of any log discussion. Logs never even came up in the phone call to arrange a look at the airplane.

My point in all this is, for a potential buyer, the log entries are simply a TOOL I can use to help narrow down the playing field when there are several similar models for sale.

 

[Tom-D]

The exception to me is the engine maintenance record, Was it a new engine that was installed, or was it a overhauled engine on its 5th run. was the crank, cam, reground? was the cylinders replaced or new?
Who did the last overhaul? were they known as a quality shop, or a fly by night shade tree mechanic?

 

[Silvaire]

Ok, just for fun, here's the copied and pasted exchange(email was in the trash)....

One of the things you said in this thread was - no scanned logs, I'm moving on.

It doesn't seem like you're "moving on" however. Going to the effort to dig a personal email correspondence out of the trash and post it here on an internet forum demonstrates that you're not.

Now I don't know if your just really mad because the guy didn't want to scan the logs for you or if your upset because you've made this personal commitment not to even look at any airplane until you've seen the logbooks and this particular airplane still interests you.

If it's the latter then that's the point I'm trying to make. You don't need to set such an artificial limitation because you could possibly miss out on the perfect airplane for yourself. Although we've talked about being wary of letting emotions rule sometimes you just have to go with the gut.

 

[Fearless Tower]

One of the things you said in this thread was - no scanned logs, I'm moving on.

It doesn't seem like you're "moving on" however. Going to the effort to dig a personal email correspondence out of the trash and post it here on an internet forum demonstrates that you're not.

I think he meant 'moving on'....to the next airplane listed.

The OP does have a point and there are others that are arguing a different point. Both are correct, but folks are arguing past each other.

 

[midlifeflyer]

BTW, Why aren't the regulations written requiring that an aircraft have a "full set of logs" to be airworthy?

Maybe because like a lot of other regulations, they set a minimum standard for regulatory review and not a business standard for due diligence when making a purchase?

 

[midlifeflyer]

How about a scenario along the lines of...."No Damage History" and then there is an entry about structural repairs to a wing.

You've been looking at my files! Yep. I had a case that involved almost exactly that scenario.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The exception to me is the engine maintenance record, Was it a new engine that was installed, or was it a overhauled engine on its 5th run. was the crank, cam, reground? was the cylinders replaced or new?
Who did the last overhaul? were they known as a quality shop, or a fly by night shade tree mechanic?

The exception to anyone is the thing they figure might case a problem. The one that actually does cause a problem is often the one they didn't figure would.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I think he meant 'moving on'....to the next airplane listed.

Correct.

I'm not mad, never was mad, more befuddled than anythig. It was a polite and very simple request and maybe I rubbed the guy wrong unknowingly, or he's just a jerk naturally, I don't know. But no hard feelings towards him at all of course. If I thought it was a big deal to copy the email(which by the way took me 30 seconds, no "effort" at all), I would have included his name.

I see the opposing viewpoint to mine and it's valid. It's just different ways of going about it.

 

[Velocity173]

Correct.

I'm not mad, never was mad, more befuddled than anythig. It was a polite and very simple request and maybe I rubbed the guy wrong unknowingly, or he's just a jerk naturally, I don't know. But no hard feelings towards him at all of course. If I thought it was a big deal to copy the email(which by the way took me 30 seconds, no "effort" at all), I would have included his name.

I see the opposing viewpoint to mine and it's valid. It's just different ways of going about it.

I think your attention to detail is warranted but as others have said, just don't let that get in the way of a good deal. Logs don't necessarily reflect an aircraft's condition and they sure won't always show the "black flag" that you're looking for. You're going to be dealing with either an honest guy who'll tell you about damage history / major repairs / ADs, or you'll be dealing with a dishonest guy who won't. If you get the later, there's a good chance they've kept said entry out of the logs anyway so you'll never know. I bought my Velocity based on "no damage history" only to find it had two landing gear incidents I found on an Internet search! It's up to you to find it.

Also, don't pass on a plane just because every little detail doesn't meet your specs. Unless you have an unlimited budget, you're not going to find that pristine 40 yr old aircraft that's the ultimate deal. I see too often people on an unrealistic budget and just won't pull the trigger because they're scared of the commitment (tire kickers). Once you accept that a) you're gonna have minor squawks with the purchase and b) owning an aircraft never makes financial sense, you'll be a whole lot better off.

 

[Silvaire]

...I see the opposing viewpoint to mine and it's valid. It's just different ways of going about it.

Fair enough, I get your point as well.

 

[petrolero]

my attitude is that the discovery of repairs should lead the mechanic to review the log entry, not the other way around.

Maybe, but if the potential buyer is trying to weed through multiple prospects, he may very well discover the log entry before ever seeing the airplane.

what difference would it make if he did? That's the whole issue. The plane is the subject. The log entries aren't useful in establishing condition.

Because you can't travel to look at every airplane. I can't travel and drag along a mechanic to do a thorough pre-buy on every one.

So that's why we ask for log book copies. Those who refuse to provide copies (and I'm not talking 100% of logs back to antiquity here) are hiding something. If it passes the recent-work sniff test and appears to be as advertised and well maintained recently then we bring it in for pre-buy and give it and the logs the rubber glove treatment.

During pre-buy mechanics have typically one to two days to find major problems. They are expected to both review log books and inspect the plane in that time. It's nice to have a record of major work done, in advance, so they can focus on checking the quality of the work. If they are wholly unaware that something major had been done they might miss a subtle problem in the short time they have to look it over.

The log books also need to be complete and correctly signed off in order to establish compliance with ADs and SBs that can't be readily visually confirmed - there just isn't time during pre-buy to do an inspection to annual standards.

 

[Ventucky Red]

On the other edge of this sword... one of the internet selling sites does offer you, the seller, the ability to load the logs, video, etc.... which I have viewed a few..

As a prospected buyer, I do appreciate this..

 

[danhagan]

Don't you really care what the material condition of the aircraft is? Who cares who made it that way?
The paper is the easiest thing about the aircraft to retrofit.

Yes Tom, but as a non-mechanic, I need to start somewhere in the purchase process. Planes with damage history are fine if fixed correctly, BUT, you do realize when YOU sell you had better of factored that into the equation at purchase or you take the hit for someone else's accident.

Which is more important? Knowing the the damage was repaired correctly, and has been flying properly, OR what was written long ago?
Who really cares what the seller said. Are you buying the aircraft or the sellers reputation?

The AC Tom, but that damage history is going to effect your sell in the future ...

The exception to me is the engine maintenance record ...

Whoa! Thought you didn't care about logs

The logs are like a witness that is talking ... it may seem like a complete waste of time reviewing them until you see an off-hand remark some mechanic put in that effects your current engine.

 

[Mark Kelmar]

I sell planes for a living and I scan every page of every available logbook, the AD summary sheet, and any 337s that the Seller may have. I also take 200+ pictures of the interior and exterior, doing all of this makes my job much easier. The potential Buyer can review all the pertinent logs with their mechanic, and see detailed pictures of the plane.
If they take the next step and fly to see it, they are already 95% certain they will purchase the plane based on the info made available to them.
All the photos and logs can be downloaded from my website, making it very convenient for my client and myself. I use a $150 dollar digital camera and it takes about 20 minutes to photograph all the logs on a 50 year old plane, and probably another 20 minutes to set up files and PDF everything when I get home.
Engine logs really only matter to the last overhaul, in fact if a new engine is purchased the old logs usually stay with whoever bought the old engine core. But,,
Airframe logs need to be as complete as possible. I've had many owners tell me their plane has no damage history at all, only to review the airframe logs and find several entries of repaired damage. Often times the Seller had no idea, as they didn't review the logs or order 337 history from the FAA before writing a check for the plane.
A good compromise for Sellers that don't want to PDF all their logs would be to take pictures of the previous 5 annuals and any damage repair entries, this would take very little time and would give the potential Buyer at least some maint. history.

 

[Rcmutz]

I sell planes for a living and I scan every page of every available logbook, the AD summary sheet, and any 337s that the Seller may have. I also take 200+ pictures of the interior and exterior, doing all of this makes my job much easier. The potential Buyer can review all the pertinent logs with their mechanic, and see detailed pictures of the plane.
If they take the next step and fly to see it, they are already 95% certain they will purchase the plane based on the info made available to them.
All the photos and logs can be downloaded from my website, making it very convenient for my client and myself. I use a $150 dollar digital camera and it takes about 20 minutes to photograph all the logs on a 50 year old plane, and probably another 20 minutes to set up files and PDF everything when I get home.
Engine logs really only matter to the last overhaul, in fact if a new engine is purchased the old logs usually stay with whoever bought the old engine core. But,,
Airframe logs need to be as complete as possible. I've had many owners tell me their plane has no damage history at all, only to review the airframe logs and find several entries of repaired damage. Often times the Seller had no idea, as they didn't review the logs or order 337 history from the FAA before writing a check for the plane.
A good compromise for Sellers that don't want to PDF all their logs would be to take pictures of the previous 5 annuals and any damage repair entries, this would take very little time and would give the potential Buyer at least some maint. history.

FINALLY, the voice of sanity. Thank you. You make my life as a buyer so much better. Before I fly to see the plane, I know what I am coming to see. I will also ask that we have a purchase agreement (with a deposit to you), contingent on a satisfactory pre-buy. You know if I am spending the money to come, I am coming to buy.

 

[kmead]

Just finished the prebuy on a Jetprop in Tulsa. He wouldn't send the log book copies on the $750,000 airplane. Luckily no major problems except for a poorly performing windshield. What's another $28,000 for a windshield?

This thread reminds me I've got to get my 172 logs copied and ready to present to possible buyers. I wish I could stay home for long enough to get the annual done.

 

[James331]

FINALLY, the voice of sanity. Thank you. You make my life as a buyer so much better. Before I fly to see the plane, I know what I am coming to see. I will also ask that we have a purchase agreement (with a deposit to you), contingent on a satisfactory pre-buy. You know if I am spending the money to come, I am coming to buy.

+1

You would think his logic was just common sense, sadly according to this thread it appears it's not.

Exactly. What was written long ago, does not indicate what the aircraft is now.

Tom, so do you go through every year and through out all but the last 2 years of YOUR aircrafts logs?

 

[tyndall]

what difference would it make if he did? That's the whole issue. The plane is the subject. The log entries aren't useful in establishing condition.

True, but they can give you other information. I only want to see the last six or so pages of the logs. Go ahead and tell me the plane has no damage history and is in great shape. I'll believe you enough to come down and have a look. Show me a few pages of logs that shows the current owner and mechanic haven't done much to it in years and I'm out. It's more of an interview of how the current custodians are treating it than a hard condition report.

 

[kmead]

Some of my favorite pre pre-buy inspection conversations with the buyer.
1) just call the shop that just did the annual to find out what they did.
2) the shop is really big, they work on jets too.
3) this is the only PA 46 that they have ever seen.
4) it has a great panel and you could eat off their hangar floor.

I can't wait to see that one.

 

[dtuuri]

Just finished the prebuy on a Jetprop in Tulsa. He wouldn't send the log book copies on the $750,000 airplane. Luckily no major problems except for a poorly performing windshield. What's another $28,000 for a windshield?

See there, no log pages required to make a good deal. But Kristin would've passed it by (doesn't want to leave cushy office). No doubt you saw a good plane and had a purchase agreement that took it away from other buyers (who were probably dickering for those scanned logs) while you packed your bags. Good job!

dtuuri

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, so do you go through every year and through out all but the last 2 years of YOUR aircrafts logs?

With buyers out there that believe in this BS, why would I?

 

[James331]

......Gotcha

 

[Tom-D]

Yes Tom, but as a non-mechanic, I need to start somewhere in the purchase process. Planes with damage history are fine if fixed correctly, BUT, you do realize when YOU sell you had better of factored that into the equation at purchase or you take the hit for someone else's accident.



The AC Tom, but that damage history is going to effect your sell in the future ...



Whoa! Thought you didn't care about logs

The logs are like a witness that is talking ... it may seem like a complete waste of time reviewing them until you see an off-hand remark some mechanic put in that effects your current engine.

With all that said, what does any of mean to the material condition of the aircraft.

Try dealing in classic or antique aircraft and super cubs see if the buyers don't expect the aircraft had prior damage.

When you find the right aircraft at the right price, What was written long ago means nothing.

When you find the perfect aircraft by looking thru the logs, you let me know, cause I want pictures.

 

[James331]

With all that said, what does any of mean to the material condition of the aircraft.

Try dealing in classic or antique aircraft and super cubs see if the buyers don't expect the aircraft had prior damage.

When you find the right aircraft at the right price, What was written long ago means nothing.

When you find the perfect aircraft by looking thru the logs, you let me know, cause I want pictures.

So you're going to send the buyer very little information for his due diligence, he's just going to go off "materieal condition" when he arrives at your hangar? So if you over sell the plane and it's "material condition" isn't what he expects, or he isn't happy to find new wings were put on or something, you'll pay for his travel expenses?

 

[fiveoboy01]

When you find the perfect aircraft by looking thru the logs, you let me know, cause I want pictures.

Yep, because that's what I'm going to do. Look solely at the logs and decide if I'm buying or not.

 

[Tom-D]

So you're going to send the buyer very little information for his due diligence, he's just going to go off "materieal condition" when he arrives at your hangar? So if you over sell the plane and it's "material condition" isn't what he expects, or he isn't happy to find new wings were put on or something, you'll pay for his travel expenses?

I don't have to over sell my aircraft, they speak for them selves.

The first to call, always buys.
I do not sign buyer's contracts, I do not take money to hold the aircraft, You tell me you want the aircraft, It is yours until you tell me you don't want it.

I will not fly the aircraft away from its hangar. Just so it can be torn down to satisfy your curiosity.

My aircraft are what they are where they are, If you can't cope with that Cya.

I take a check, they get a bill of sale.

If you know what you want, know it when you see it, what else is there to it.

 

[Tom-D]

Yep, because that's what I'm going to do. Look solely at the logs and decide if I'm buying or not.

In that sense, you'd walk right by a brand new aircraft because it doesn't have a previous maintenance record.

Really?

 

[Tom-D]

Who would walk by this super cub at middle of the market price just because it had prior damage and messed up bog books.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Who would walk by this super cub at middle of the market price just because it had prior damage and messed up bog books.

Would it be "top of the market price", for material condition, if it had complete logs and no damage history?

 

[Tom-D]

Would it be "top of the market price", for material condition, if it had complete logs and no damage history?

It's a super cub. PA-18-180, if it had complete records and no damage, it would be new $250,000 as equipped.

It did sell at a near new price because those who love or need them simply know after a total restoration the old logs mean nothing.