Buying and logs...

Jimmy cooper said:
You also don't want to stumble into a trap like I did with the cessna 195. It's wise to not let emotion enter into a sale. Buyer beware is the attitude to have. If you've been had for a considerable amount of time and money it tends to wind you up, or at least mature some.
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Absolutely and honestly it is very difficult when buying an airplane not to let emotions enter into it. I'm sure there are folks who have bought and sold a number of airplanes but for many it's the first time for a dream they've been nurturing for years so yea, they are pining for that airplane and susceptible to subconsciously overlooking or even purposely ignoring details that might be regrettable later on when the honeymoon is over.

The logbooks however, yes an important detail, but I can't see bailing on a prospect based solely on the fact that the old curmudgeon doesn't want to email a scanned copy of them to everyone who calls. I mean the whole premise of this thread comes off as if the seller is someone who is providing a service of some sort and should kiss the butt of anyone who asks him to otherwise hey, I ain't buying your airplane I don't care how great it is just 'cause I don't like your attitude.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's just how it appeared to me :dunno:
 
frfly172 said:
Never had a problem getting a copy of the logs scanned ,and e mailed. Also if I did a pre buy had the mechanic review the actual logs. If your the buyer you want as much info and photos as possible.
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I know several owners that never touched a computer, they own the best of aircraft.
 
Silvaire said:
Absolutely and honestly it is very difficult when buying an airplane not to let emotions enter into it. I'm sure there are folks who have bought and sold a number of airplanes but for many it's the first time for a dream they've been nurturing for years so yea, they are pining for that airplane and susceptible to subconsciously overlooking or even purposely ignoring details that might be regrettable later on when the honeymoon is over.
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You're right about that. Fortunately I've been looking at the market long enough that I no longer jump out of my chair and giggle with delight when I see "the one". If I'd actually bought 6 months ago, I might have been one of those that you're describing.

The logbooks however, yes an important detail, but I can't see bailing on a prospect based solely on the fact that the old curmudgeon doesn't want to email a scanned copy of them to everyone who calls.
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Well that's how I'm doing it, and as I said, the seller certainly doesn't have to entertain my request. Once they're scanned, it's a couple clicks to email them to anyone who asks, and I guess if I really wanted to sell my airplane, I'd be happy to click my mouse a couple times for any prospective buyer.

I mean the whole premise of this thread comes off as if the seller is someone who is providing a service of some sort
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Not at all. Who stands to lose the most in a botched transaction? Seller has his money, buyer has a pile of junk worth half what he paid. As I stated before, I'm protecting myself, or trying to. You apparently don't like that, hey that's ok with me;)

and should kiss the butt of anyone who asks him to otherwise hey, I ain't buying your airplane I don't care how great it is just 'cause I don't like your attitude.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's just how it appeared to me :dunno:
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Now you're just making assumptions and putting words in my mouth... and I can say for certain that you ARE wrong.
 
Some of the old timers aren't too savvy on these thing, doesn't mean their aircraft is a bad deal.

Sometimes saying it like, I had a bad experience flying across the country for a plane with a bad log book, I'm sure you're is OK, but I just need to protect myself, I noticed there is a Staples office store in the town you live in, they can scan all the logs for you, not only would this help me feel better about flying over to check your plane out, but even if I don't buy the plane it will help you sell the plane much easier.

Always worked for me.
 
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So out of the 6 logbooks for my plane - dating back to factory delivery in 1958: What do you want? Every single page from 6 logbooks? The last few years? What?
 
EdFred said:
So out of the 6 logbooks for my plane - dating back to factory delivery in 1958: What do you want? Every single page from 6 logbooks? The last few years? What?
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You would be wise to scan all of them, even if you're not selling it just a really good idea that won't cost you much money and could save you some headaches if anything happens to your logs, and just as a digital reference.
 
When I bought my 172, I asked for a snapshot of the last few pages of the logs, and a snapshot of major things (when mags were last rebuilt, etc). Got those, was happy enough to buy the plane. No need to the complete copy of the 4 logbooks. That, plus the FAA records on CD built a good story about the plane. Am happy with the result.
 
I always find it funny when the seller of a high cost item doesn't want to cooperate with a potential buyer.

While I have never bought or sold and airplane, I am a real estate and very accustomed to assuring people involved in large dollar purchases.

It seems silly to me how many people play hide-the-ball with information that is going to be disclosed at some point in the transaction.

I have always advised my sellers to get it organized up front and give the info to anyone so we can get it out of the way at the start - not three-quarters of the way to closing.

Especially when you're gonna have to get it all collected anyway.

I see no reason why a seller of an airplane should not have their logs scanned and readily available for electronic distribution when they decide to put their bird on the market.
 
Scanning logbooks might cost a few dollars to have someone at a local Staples or any other office store take care of. It's not a big request... unless there's something the seller doesn't want you to know prior to arriving.

I've made a couple trips that cost me a few dollars (and more importantly, a few days time) to find out I wouldn't have made the trip if I'd seen the logs ahead of time. That said, they don't always tell the story the plane does (but it's a heck of a good indication anyway).

My view... If you can't scan logs... then you can keep YOUR airplane. There are plenty more out there. I don't think we are talking about rare planes here.

Refusing to scan logs is pure nonsense.
 
And on the seller side, I can recite dates and mods to a potential buyer over the phone. Better yet just sell it by word of mouth and then there are no tire-kickers gonna call. Perfect.
 
I just bought a Cherokee 6/300 one month ago. The seller had scanned many of the most recent log book pages and had great high definition pictures. A good pre-buy did reveal a few things that they selectively didn't show on the pictures of course. For instance, the lack of logs regarding damage history, but there was obvious bondo on a wing tip that had been fixed during the most recent re-paint. It is a 36 year old airplane and has a backpack's worth of log books.
 
There is a twin in the local area for sale. It is great looking, the paint gleams, the tires/brakes are spanking new, the interior is spanking new (beginning to see a pattern here?), the panel is dated but useable, the price is fair, and the seller is motivated. I'm told the logs are world class.

My point?
Being a local I am aware of this airplane and I would be reluctant to even taxi around in it.
Leave the ground in it?
Never.
This thing is a hidden death trap
That airplane has been banged onto the ground so many times and has been wrenched around in the air past Vne until half the rivets on that machine have to be work hardened from being stretched

Yes, logs are important (if only for resale)
But the inspection is critical
And talking with the locals might save your wallet - and your hide
There are no easy answers - you have to do your own due diligence
 
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James331 said:
You would be wise to scan all of them, even if you're not selling it just a really good idea that won't cost you much money and could save you some headaches if anything happens to your logs, and just as a digital reference.
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Not the question asked.
 
dtuuri said:
As a seller, I wouldn't let you scan the logs, just look at them. Hey, it's my plane and the logs aren't for public consumption.



dtuuri
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Curious, what is the logic of keeping them "private" from potential buyers?
 
John221us said:
When your next step is to drop an AMU on airfare to go look at a plane, you bet I want to see the logs first.
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Good luck. I did the same thing. Tried to use phone conversations and scanned logs to weed out the dogs ... didn't work. Not until going in person do you locate the liars. Had a DPE selling a plane with NDH hold back a log that indicated the plane "off airport landed into 6 feet of brakish water" as well as a prop strike with no inspection after as the engine "was only at 200 hours". Also had an Arrow owner (non-A&P) that did so much work on his AC that was undocumented that it'd be a nightmare trying to locate it all and have an A&P sign off on it. That was TWO of the trips requiring commercial flight, car rental and one hotel. Also had a third that plane was "in pieces" like an annual on arrival and it was supposed to be flyable. Mechanic "unavailable" to talk to, but plane is a good deal so you should just buy it:goofy:

How did I end up buying. Located my plane and had the known national guru do an annual (it was due). Told seller if it passed annual with no airworthy items, I'd take it - he responded if they could find ANYTHING even not airworthy, he'd fix it. Bill was huge for him, I paid his price and was comfortable that the top place in the nation evaluated/worked it. On top of that, Ron Levy was the ferry pilot to take it to the annual site. I didn't see this plane until I picked it up, I let the experts do their work.

Seller knew I was serious as purchase funds awaited in escrow as plane was in annual. Worked well ...
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
Whatever you have.
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How does it help you in purchasing knowing the plugs were cleaned and rotated 50 years and two overhauls ago? Or that the brake pads were changed in 1972?

How does this help you determine whether to buy come look at the plane or not?

Are you this guy?

 
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JoseCuervo said:
Curious, what is the logic of keeping them "private" from potential buyers?
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So some misinformed or disgruntled tire-kicking reprobate doesn't excerpt them out of context and post them all over the internet.

dtuuri
 
midlifeflyer said:
No. But missing sections in a logbook or just a date vs tach time discrepancie can cover over some very interesting things. Will it make a difference all the time? No. Can there be hidden issues even with a complete set of logs? Of course there can.
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Yep. And as an A&P/IA I've seen "pristine" logbooks that were a work of fiction.




midlifeflyer said:
There are probably a bunch of things that go into aircraft purchase due diligence that, individually, are not likely to be a big deal most of the time. More complete logbooks; prepuchase inspections by an independent who didn't sign off the last few annuals might make no difference whatsoever. Or they might show undisclosed issues.
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The whole log book game got pushed down everyone's throats by the likes of Flying, Plane and Pilot, AOPA Pilot, etc during their annual "Do a PrePurchase Inspection" articles. After all, those experts told everyone missing log books was a deal killer.

BTW, Why aren't the regulations written requiring that an aircraft have a "full set of logs" to be airworthy? :dunno:


midlifeflyer said:
So, while you may be perfectly willing to buy the airplane with the old stuff tossed away, others might not :dunno:
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To some buyers, the deal of a lifetime off of others ignorance.
 
I'm happy to scan the logs and send them to a broker that's screening and weeding out folks to make sure they're serious & not just trying to trash you/the plane or to folks that I know (or are referred personally). I would not send them to just anyone.

One need only look at some of the crap that went on in Classified until we changed the policy & tightened it down. There were a handful of folks that gleefully trashed planes for sale & the sellers. There is absolutely no good that will come from sending logs to any and all askers. Serious buyers will understand that & accommodations will be agreed to quickly (after all, buyers run a risk, too, if the logs are floating around freely).

Unfortunately the few bad apples have ruined it for everyone.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The whole log book game got pushed down everyone's throats by the likes of Flying, Plane and Pilot, AOPA Pilot, etc during their annual "Do a PrePurchase Inspection" articles. After all, those experts told everyone missing log books was a deal killer.

BTW, Why aren't the regulations written requiring that an aircraft have a "full set of logs" to be airworthy? :dunno:

To some buyers, the deal of a lifetime off of others ignorance.
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Yep, just find that thread here where the owner of a maintenance management service told the potential buyer to walk away over something his A&P claimed was a big deal and two other mechanics had a different opinion. That should make sellers nervous.
 
danhagan said:
Good luck. I did the same thing. Tried to use phone conversations and scanned logs to weed out the dogs ... didn't work. Not until going in person do you locate the liars. Had a DPE selling a plane with NDH hold back a log that indicated the plane "off airport landed into 6 feet of brakish water" as well as a prop strike with no inspection after as the engine "was only at 200 hours". Also had an Arrow owner (non-A&P) that did so much work on his AC that was undocumented that it'd be a nightmare trying to locate it all and have an A&P sign off on it. That was TWO of the trips requiring commercial flight, car rental and one hotel. Also had a third that plane was "in pieces" like an annual on arrival and it was supposed to be flyable. Mechanic "unavailable" to talk to, but plane is a good deal so you should just buy it:goofy:

How did I end up buying. Located my plane and had the known national guru do an annual (it was due). Told seller if it passed annual with no airworthy items, I'd take it - he responded if they could find ANYTHING even not airworthy, he'd fix it. Bill was huge for him, I paid his price and was comfortable that the top place in the nation evaluated/worked it. On top of that, Ron Levy was the ferry pilot to take it to the annual site. I didn't see this plane until I picked it up, I let the experts do their work.

Seller knew I was serious as purchase funds awaited in escrow as plane was in annual. Worked well ...
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I have weeded out quite a few with a log review, but I have still had a couple not make it through pre-buy (one was out of state, so travel on top of inspection fee). I usually put the full purchase price into escrow and my usual stipulation is based on a dollar amount on the discrepancies. Oddly, I have had sellers argue about what was considered an airworthy item. My response is that if my mechanic thinks it is, than it is, because it means that I will need to fix it (not to mention the safety issue).
 
danhagan said:
Also had an Arrow owner (non-A&P) that did so much work on his AC that was undocumented that it'd be a nightmare trying to locate it all and have an A&P sign off on it.
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Owner maintenance that's done IAW the rules and properly logged should not require an A&P signoff. There is no need to get a signoff for, say, a light bulb replacement or battery replacement, provided the logging is properly done. That shows care of the airplane and compliance with the rules.

How did I end up buying. Located my plane and had the known national guru do an annual (it was due). Told seller if it passed annual with no airworthy items, I'd take it - he responded if they could find ANYTHING even not airworthy, he'd fix it. Bill was huge for him, I paid his price and was comfortable that the top place in the nation evaluated/worked it. On top of that, Ron Levy was the ferry pilot to take it to the annual site. I didn't see this plane until I picked it up, I let the experts do their work.

Seller knew I was serious as purchase funds awaited in escrow as plane was in annual. Worked well ...
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That's fine as long as you get a reasonable mechanic. As we know, mechanics can have differences of opinion and some can be outright unreasonable. Everyone has different goals, but there are some buyers who tell the A&P to find a certain amount of stuff "unairworthy" so as to get to a certain price-point. And some mechanics willingly do that.

Some buyers can be as unethical as some sellers.
 
EdFred said:
How does it help you in purchasing knowing the plugs were cleaned and rotated 50 years and two overhauls ago? Or that the brake pads were changed in 1972?

How does this help you determine whether to buy come look at the plane or not?

]
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Simple reason being - it's one of my criteria as a buyer. I'll reiterate...if you don't want to provide the logs, no hard feelings and I'll look elsewhere. I started this thread because I didn't(still don't) understand why some object to such a simple request.

The "some jerk will be vindictive and put my logs on the Internet" is the silliest thing I've read yet and if you have that little faith in your fellow man, then I wouldn't want to be your buyer anyways.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
The "some jerk will be vindictive and put my logs on the Internet" is the silliest thing I've read yet and if you have that little faith in your fellow man, then I wouldn't want to be your buyer anyways.
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Great, go buy elsewhere.

Sorry, but my opinion is tempered by some of the crap I saw in Classified before the policy changed (and frankly, some of the stuff that occurs every day here). One of our members was soundly trashed over the plane he placed up for sale - I can't imagine how bad it would have been if the logs were put up there, too. The result is that I am far less trusting of the motives of others than I used to be.

Again, if I know you personally, know you're a serious buyer, and/or I'm working with a broker to weed out some of the bad apples, then I'm willing to provide them. Not sending logs to every tire-kicker that asks, though.

YMMV.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Simple reason being - it's one of my criteria as a buyer. I'll reiterate...if you don't want to provide the logs, no hard feelings and I'll look elsewhere. I started this thread because I didn't(still don't) understand why some object to such a simple request.

The "some jerk will be vindictive and put my logs on the Internet" is the silliest thing I've read yet and if you have that little faith in your fellow man, then I wouldn't want to be your buyer anyways.
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I'm trying to understand how it will help. Logs dating back to the last engin overhaul - sure. Logs showing damage repaired fifteen years ago absolutely. Filter and plug changes from the 60s - how does that help?

I thought it was a simple question. Evidently not.
 
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Point is the guy with the wad of cash you want would like to see them.

Most owners know how valuable the logs are, most folks I know have them scanned anyways just incase of a fire, loss, whatever.

Now sending a*.pdf you already have to some guy doesn't take anytime, click, click, click, done.

As for the "I don't want my logs public" honestly doubt anyone not interested in buying your plane cares enough to bother reading them, besides who cares, unless you have a bunch of fiction in the logs and you're flying a un airworthy plane, you really have nothing to loose by sending them, yet could miss out of a cash buyer by not.

Am I missing something here :dunno:
 
EdFred said:
I'm trying to understand how it will help. Logs dating back to the last engin overhaul - sure. Logs showing damage repaired fifteen years ago absolutely. Filter and plug changes from the 60s - how does that help?

I thought it was a simple question. Evidently not.
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Because I as the buyer want to look through those record with my own eyes.

I want to see the chronological sequence of work. I want to see the frequency of work and any gaps in time where the plane sat without being used. It really doesn't matter though.

Since it costs almost nothing to provide it, and it allows me to make a more informed offer - which means less re-negotiating down the road - I see no reason to not have them available to a buyer. This wasn't about why people wouldn't put them on the Internet for everyone to see- but about sellers refusing to even consider letting a buyer review them except in person.

I am sorry, but if a seller wants to sell, they need to make it as easy as possible for a buyer to get the info they need.

To me it is no less short sites than the ads that have no pictures or say call for price.

They are simply shooting themselves in the foot
 
Tflhndn said:
Because I as the buyer want to look through those record with my own eyes.
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If you now own an airplane, would you be ok with making its logs public if the plane is not for sale? What good could possibly come from that, right? So, if somebody else can't get their price and takes their plane off the market, aren't they then in exactly the same place as you where no possible good can come from having their logbook entries in the hands of strangers?

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
If you now own an airplane, would you be ok with making its logs public if the plane is not for sale? What good could possibly come from that, right? So, if somebody else can't get their price and takes their plane off the market, aren't they then in exactly the same place as you--no possible good can come from having their logbook entries in the hands of strangers?



dtuuri
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Please enlighten us on what bad is going to happen? I'm honestly curious.
 
I've currently got the logs for 3 airplanes in PDF format. Obviously I'm not buying 3 airplanes.

Please, enlighten me as to what you believe I'm going to do with the "leftover" logbook copies.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I've currently got the logs for 3 airplanes in PDF format. Obviously I'm not buying 3 airplanes.

Please, enlighten me as to what you believe I'm going to do with the "leftover" logbook copies.
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You might misunderstand the record and bad-mouth the airplane to others unfairly. The copies you have could soon be outdated, yet passed on to others as current. Airplanes were bought and sold before scanners and email were invented, I wonder how we managed?

EDIT: By the way, if I were a broker, I'd send your plane's log photos to anyone. Brokers represent themselves.

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
:dunno: If nothing good can come from it, I don't need a reason not to do it.

dtuuri
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What good could come from it.....well.....you could sell your airplane :rolleyes2:


Keep in mind this whole topic is about SELLERS not providing logbook scans/photos.
 
This thread seems to have degenerated a little bit.

Plane purchasing is a lot like dancing...most negotiation is. Maybe the seller doesn't want to give out the logs until one is more serious, maybe they feel like nothing to hide so see the logs.

At the same time, if someone has three sets of logs of planes they haven't purchased... When are you going to evacuate your colon or remove yourself from the porcelain throne. 50 year old planes are 50 year old planes... Either you like the person you're dealing with or you don't either you trust the plane or you don't.

"I want to see the logs so I can make an educated offer" sound a lot to a seller like "I'm going to go through the logs with a fine tooth comb to argue with you over why you should sell your $50000 plane to me for $30000. Maybe the planes only worth 30k... Then start from there and tell why...maybe a number can be reached or not...

But I can understand someone wanting a number (not necessarily an offer) but a ballpark before they send out the logs...then you know. I mean if some says your 50k asking price...I'd ballpark around 42 if no major issues...then you send the logs I'd guess, but I'm interested can I see the logs I can see someone saying no. It's the dance...
 
I wouldn't consider a plane without logs. When I sold my SR20 I had them all scanned and available for all to see. The SR22's I'm looking at all pretty much have the same thing. Maybe it's a Cirrus thing... but no problem getting scanned logs - in most cases from broker websites.
 
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