Buying a aircraft you can't afford.

Some of us drive an '80's model car so we can afford to fly a '70's model airplane.
Some of us drive our 60-year old car, or our 70-year old motorcycle, to fly our 80-year old airplane. Because, in each case they are simple, well maintained (and easily maintained) exemplars of industrial design.
 
There can be other factors as well. I recently sold my Luscombe. I think I could've afforded to keep it for a while longer, but due to my field being remote without an A&P with a shop on the field, the plane having a brake issue that made it impossible to ferry it, and a complication with a mechanic situation followed by a rodent infestation, I decided it was time to cut the losses. Sometimes circumstances can cause a downward spiral that is very hard to recover from.
 
So very true! Every week I get a phone call "I am looking at buying a Super Viking, what can you tell me?". My first response is to emphatically state that whatever price they pay for the aircraft, they better have funds equal to or more than the purchase price to invest in maintenance in the near future. And then a healthy budget for ongoing maintenance. A few heed this advice, many do not. But when they come to my shop for service or an annual and I give them an estimate of $20 or $30K or more I remind them that this was what I told them up front. General aviation in the USA is a magnet for those that have the dream of aircraft ownership but do not have the means to responsibly fulfill this dream.
Eh, a $35k Bellanca will only cost $100k vs. a $50k Bonanza that'll cost $140k . . .. :cool:
 
Seen new owners think they just have to pay for fuel when they fly. Then something big happens and they don’t have the $10k sitting around for repair. So I see lots of planes rotting on the ramp due to that scenario, but the owners will still pay insurance and registration so they can pay for the tie down for plane they refuse to sell.

Me and my partner put $70 into the pot each hour we fly. And we do that as a dry rate. Our engine needed a premature overhaul, but we did have $30k in the pot. So we only had to come up with the other half.
 
Planes? Cars? People buy houses they can't afford. It's not just underestimating the maintenance, it's overestimating what they can afford to spend on the house/car/airplane, and in some cases overestimating their income. A lot of people are over-optimistic about a lot of things. Costs go up, income may not. In the last six months we've interviewed at least two people for IT jobs, after they were laid off from some of the top 10 IT companies in the country, and when we told them what are salaries were for the positions open they said that wouldn't pay their Long Island mortgages. Kinda sad, and I feel bad for them. My view is limited, but I don't see things, in tech at least, as being in great shape.

But...pilots tend to be pretty conservative about things in general, at least the ones that survive do, so maybe pilots are better than the average person at the income level to support flight to make the judgements. I don't know.
 
I could afford a $50k-ish certified AC but I am going the E/AB route.

That is the way.
 
See, this is the root of the problem. Misplaced priorities. The real issue is pilots acquiring spouses and families they can't afford. That gets in the way of buying and maintaining an airplane.
Actually it was relying on a job to not get in the way.

But you make a good point…I was somewhere around 30% of my gross income going into airplanes.
 
Actually it was relying on a job to not get in the way.

But you make a good point…I was somewhere around 30% of my gross income going into airplanes.

Perfectly reasonable, but it meant you couldn’t really afford a full-time spouse and probably should have stuck with a rental. ;)
 
so maybe pilots are better than the average person at the income level to support flight to make the judgements. I don't know.
To an extent I would agree given the differences between aircraft ownership and the others you list. However, where there is a noticeable difference among aircraft owners is when the flying is no longer a priority for whatever reason. The average owner tends to turn a blind eye to the aircraft where as an "engaged" owner will ensure the aircraft is taken care of until flying is a priority again. In general, that simple difference is usually the reason behind a lot of the additional costs incurred by your average aircraft owner.
 
All of that just sounds like normal ways that people earn money.
Yes but going back to my example now, base salaries have gone down, stocks plateau (tech) and layoffs become more common. You add all those with expensive housing, kids back to school, RTOs, etc and you have less time and money for your hobby

One of my main concerns with ownership are all the what ifs not related with the plane. What if we get fired, can't find a job, get sick, school gets more expensive , etc.

Maintenance, overhauls, etc. are part of the hobby
 
If your airplane makes you money? You may be able to justify financing it. If not? If you can’t pay cash for it, you can’t afford it. I broke my own rule a couple of weeks ago when I bought a high-end pickup. The dealer offered 0.9% financing so I used it for 36 months. I could have paid cash but at that interest rate, I can make more with my cash than the loan will cost. That doesn’t happen very often.
 
If your airplane makes you money? You may be able to justify financing it. If not? If you can’t pay cash for it, you can’t afford it. I broke my own rule a couple of weeks ago when I bought a high-end pickup. The dealer offered 0.9% financing so I used it for 36 months. I could have paid cash but at that interest rate, I can make more with my cash than the loan will cost. That doesn’t happen very often.
Opportunity costs. Sometimes loans make sense even when you don't need the loan to "afford" something.
 
My accountant shared a strategy a long time ago. If you have to borrow money, borrow against your house. At least there’s a tax benefit and the interest rate is almost always better than a consumer loan. Again, I won’t borrow money unless it makes me more than it costs.
 
One problem is that unexpected expenses in an aircraft can easily meet or exceed the purchase price. Spend $60k on a Cherokee, and just months or years later have an engine start making metal and you are out another $30-40k. ADs, unexpected maintenance, etc., can make an affordable airplane quickly unaffordable.
 
I think there're two questions here:
1) I could afford the aircraft I bought, including all the unexpected MX that came up in the first year.
2) I definitely had no idea how stupid things cost. The $820 beacon. $900 starter. I had a good idea of annuals, other inspections, insurance before I bought and knew how stupid engines are and have a fund going, but the little things are insane.

Also, I'm currently scared the Piper spar is going to make my ride worthless. Ugh.
 
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I think there's two questions here:
1) I could afford the aircraft I bought, including all the unexpected MX that came up in the first year.
2) I definitely had no idea how stupid things cost. The $820 beacon. $900 starter. I had a good idea of annuals, other inspections, insurance before I bought and knew how stupid engines are and have a fund going, but the little things are insane.

Also, I'm currently scared the Piper spar is going to make my ride worthless. Ugh.

This is all true, and sometimes it's dumb little crap. When I replaced my oil cooler, I replace the two hose fittings. One was maybe fifteen or twenty bucks and in stock, but the other was back-ordered and cost a few hundred. I have no idea why there was such a difference, but there's lots of unexpected stupid stuff like that.
 
Many people also get drunk on rates

They look at the interest on a loan and say they couldn’t afford not to finance as their return on the cash in “the market” or whatever is higher.

This may be true, but when they have applied this logic to the 2nd $30,000 side by side, brand new car for the kid who can’t even drive, second house, well now they are a slave, everything looks great but if their job vanishes folks with tow trucks and court paperwork are going to repo their entire self image.

Having a mindset of always buying to sell helps too, don’t buy stuff you couldn’t turn around a sell for a profit, if you can’t make that deal just wait for another one
 
My accountant shared a strategy a long time ago. If you have to borrow money, borrow against your house. At least there’s a tax benefit and the interest rate is almost always better than a consumer loan. Again, I won’t borrow money unless it makes me more than it costs.
Yeah, This is very good advice.

But too many people don't understand opportunity cost.
 
My accountant shared a strategy a long time ago. If you have to borrow money, borrow against your house. At least there’s a tax benefit and the interest rate is almost always better than a consumer loan. Again, I won’t borrow money unless it makes me more than it costs.
ya but....the psychology isn't good....you'll end up spending way more than you should and refinancing for longer than if you just got a consumer loan.
 
Some of us drive an '80's model car so we can afford to fly a '70's model airplane.
I am apparently now in the upper class of pilots, sort of. About 6 years ago I got traded my 80's vehicle with almost 300,000 miles on it for a early 2000's vehicle that now has just over 200,000, hoping to get close to 300,000 out of it also.
About the same time also traded my early 70's homebuilt sailplane for late 80's factory built sailplane. I guess am still not where I can afford airplane with an engine.

Well, actually I am a small partner with on our tow plane. I can't afford much more then from the rudder hinge aft on it. But on the other hand I can provide currency training and checkouts and maintenance flights for the other owners and pilots we hire to fly it. The other owners know I can't afford and just let me be a token partner on it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I've always been content driving a beat up truck. But I prefer having my wife and kids in a late model low mileage vehicle. Plus vehicles built in the last 5-10 years have some incredible safety features. Lane keeping, anti collision braking, etc. And once you get hooked on adaptive cruise control, it's hard to go back.
 
Many people talk about going experimental as a way to do it cheaper. Sure, lots of the parts are cheaper but often it seems people go too far and get the cheapest of non-aviation parts. It seems its also and excuse to not do proper maintenance, that's what I saw while looking for an Aircam. Lots of deferred maintenance, usually the statement was "its recommended, not required". Even experimentals are expensive if PROPERLY maintained.
 
Many people talk about going experimental as a way to do it cheaper. Sure, lots of the parts are cheaper but often it seems people go too far and get the cheapest of non-aviation parts. It seems its also and excuse to not do proper maintenance, that's what I saw while looking for an Aircam. Lots of deferred maintenance, usually the statement was "its recommended, not required". Even experimentals are expensive if PROPERLY maintained.
Yes, but. Certified is still a level more expensive due to parts available that are literally the same quality, or even better, but not certified to use on the certified aircraft. Also, labor is substantially cheaper if you are a good mechanic and willing to follow the same guidance an A&P would.
 
This thread is gonna throw its own shoulder with the amount of self-patting going on. I don't put too much stock on cost preparedness finger wagging from people who haven't had to cut checks for an entire engine as sole owner, after 2020. To wit, I wouldn't take advice from myself as a 2013 aircraft buyer.

I also don't know what being a 1st time owner has anything to do with nominal cost burdens. Being a second time owner doesn't change the sole-owner cost burden if and when it happens to you. If the implication is that the second time owner is older and richer, ok that may or may not be true. My ability to afford the hobby has decreased in inflation adjusted terms since both my personal overhead (work commute/work housing) and inflation proper increased, even though I make more money in nominal terms than in 2013.

If I wanted to deal with TW I could go and buy an RV-4 right now at list price, and get back in the game. But the engine situation has changed the value proposition dramatically. Y'all need to stop lumping everybody critical of the hobby cost basis as a broke out-grouper. I know some mean well, but step back and read how elitist this place comes off as, it's a big blind spot.
If engine overhaul is the only relevant factor, I would need the facilities to do it under supervision like @Jim K is doing. So in my case it would still be about facilities and time availability relative to my job, not airplane costs.
 
Yes, but. Certified is still a level more expensive due to parts available that are literally the same quality, or even better, but not certified to use on the certified aircraft. Also, labor is substantially cheaper if you are a good mechanic and willing to follow the same guidance an A&P would.
Example: someone in another thread posted about being charged 25 hours of labor to install a magnetometer for an AV-30. That's $2500 to install a $250 part. I installed my own magnetometer, which is proof that any fool can do it.
 
Yes, but. Certified is still a level more expensive due to parts available that are literally the same quality, or even better, but not certified to use on the certified aircraft. Also, labor is substantially cheaper if you are a good mechanic and willing to follow the same guidance an A&P would.
Having one of each? I can easily say my Exp is more expensive in every way except annual inspection, because I can do my own inspection on the Cub. Parts? Certificated planes are limited to what’s approved. Exp’s have no such limits. Tricked-out IO390s aren’t cheap. Cold air sumps, electronic ignitions, fuel injection, gas shocks…. There’s no free lunch if you maintain a high quality aircraft.
 
Having one of each? I can easily say my Exp is more expensive in every way except annual inspection, because I can do my own inspection on the Cub. Parts? Certificated planes are limited to what’s approved. Exp’s have no such limits. Tricked-out IO390s aren’t cheap. Cold air sumps, electronic ignitions, fuel injection, gas shocks…. There’s no free lunch if you maintain a high quality aircraft.
That makes no sense. You can’t consider upgrades as essential for a well maintained aircraft. If you do, then I still maintain the certified is more expensive because then you’d have to buy a better certified airplane to get a simple upgrade.
 
That makes no sense. You can’t consider upgrades as essential for a well maintained aircraft.
Maybe you don’t. My airplanes are both nicely modified and very well maintained. Modifying certificated airplanes is very limited. Not so with experimentals. If you aren’t interested in improving what you have? I guess you’d see it differently. My comments about parts are true.
 
Maybe you don’t. My airplanes are both nicely modified and very well maintained. Modifying certificated airplanes is very limited. Not so with experimentals. If you aren’t interested in improving what you have? I guess you’d see it differently. My comments about parts are true.
I’ve made major improvements on all the planes I’ve owned. It’s cost me significantly more to do so on the certified ones. Especially labor costs as even doing it yourself you still have to pay someone to review your work and do the paperwork.

The fact that you don’t pay the enormous costs to upgrade your certified plane doesn’t make it cheaper. You could in fact do all those fancy upgrades on it if you were willing to pay to do the engineering and paperwork for the faa. But it would be astronomically more expensive. Yet somehow you consider that plane well maintained.

I repeat. Makes no sense.
 
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You can always tell when someone has no idea how much a plane costs to own. They ask completely irrelevant questions like how much is the fuel burn per hour, or how much does insurance cost. Or make statements like I’m going to buy a plane because renting or leasing is too expensive ;-)
 
You can always tell when someone has no idea how much a plane costs to own. They ask completely irrelevant questions like how much is the fuel burn per hour, or how much does insurance cost. Or make statements like I’m going to buy a plane because renting or leasing is too expensive ;-)
That and......THE SPREADSHEET. ;)
 
How many pilots buy a plane not knowing or not understanding the true cost of owning a plane.
I would guess that around 90% don't know what they're in for, especially the stoooooopid costs of some parts.
I've never understood the people who spend a huge amount of money on an aircraft and then nickel and dime every aspect of maintenance and upkeep, frequently to the detriment of the aircraft.
A smart owner DOES "nickel and dime" in some ways, mostly by educating themselves and doing the same maintenance for less money.

For example, I will frequently source parts myself. Possibly the most extreme example was the shop wanting to charge $1900 for a new manifold pressure gauge (with 60 day warranty!), I bought a used one for $36 with a 30-day warranty. It's usually not that big of a difference, but it's not uncommon for me to be able to save 25-30% on parts by shopping around if I know they need to be replaced soon.
I consider myself fortunately to have been a member of a flying club (and eventually maintenance manager for one of the planes) and a member of a partnership before buying my own plane. Learning from other members was not only good education for maintaining a safe airplane but also for setting expectations, dealing with shops, navigating the parts supply chain, etc. I can't imagine how expensive it would have been to jump in blind.
This!!! That's where the remaining 10% who *do* understand what they're getting into come from. I was on the board of my flying club for eight years before getting my own plane, and served as treasurer or maintenance director for most of that time. There are many expensive lessons to be had in aircraft ownership, and the more you can learn with other people's money, the better.
the problem is people seriously underestimate what it costs per hr to fly their plane. with the cost of engines nowdays, the old 4x fuel costs just doesn't cut it anymore. for the T-6 i figure at minimum 500hr to operate it, probably closer to 750. for a simple O-320 you had better budget at least close to 50 Hr just for engine reserve nowadays.
It looks like the T-6 burns about 32 gph in cruise, or about $160/hour for fuel, *4 = $640/hr so it seems 4x fuel still works...
don't buy things you can't afford. shouldn't be a difficult concept, but it is.
I think many people just have NO CLUE what maintenance really costs. Labor is fairly easy to understand. Parts... Man, there are a lot of parts that would be $12 on a car that are $1000 on an airplane.
People would ask me about buying a such-and-such airplane. Usually something older. I always told them that "there is no such thing as a cheap old airplane."
But they'll look at that $50K Viking and think "That Dan guy is wrong." So I now use a slightly different version of this saying: "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane."
 
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