Busting Altitude

[RussR]

Aka "terps".

Not as it's intended in common use.

"TERPS" would be the development manual(s) for approach procedures. Not really intended for pilots.
"TPP" is the actual book of approach charts.

 

[Palmpilot]

Aka "terps".

I sure HOPE he's not consulting TERPS while flying approaches!

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8260.3BCHG19.pdf

 

[paflyer]

He's probably referring to the Terminal Procedures Publication.

Doh!

 

[Velocity173]

Well, you do need to be in controlled airspace

While the "class" of controlled airspace doesn't figure into it, the separation standards for IFR are not fixed and does depend on where you are, what the other traffic is, and whether RADAR is being used or not (among other things).

Oh not necessarily. We used to apply standard IFR sep with aircraft conducting radar approaches in class G airspace. About the only instance where one is under ATC control within class G.

Obviously there are factors that go into increasing or decreasing IFR vs IFR sep. My point was that the class of airspace isn’t one of those factors.

 

[luvflyin]

Oh not necessarily. We used to apply standard IFR sep with aircraft conducting radar approaches in class G airspace. About the only instance where one is under ATC control within class G.

Obviously there are factors that go into increasing or decreasing IFR vs IFR sep. My point was that the class of airspace isn’t one of those factors.

Where was that? Were they ASR or PAR?

 

[Velocity173]

Where was that? Were they ASR or PAR?

KARW and ASR. HAA of 430 with a 700 class E above. Missed approach procedure was “climb and maintain 1,500, fly runway heading” also. No “when entering controlled airspace...”

Pretty unique situation but there’s a few of those ASRs out there. I know Y19 has one that goes into class G as well.

 

[labbadabba]

Aka "terps".

AKA iPad

 

[Dave S.]

Possible Pilot deviations are determined by the controller. The controller has been given the authority to make a ad hoc decision as to whether or not it rises to the level of filing a report. The cic or supervisor can file one anyway even if the controller wants to let it go.

Any serious result such as loss of separation, busting another ATC airspace or TFR will result in a filing of an MOR report. That report goes to FSDO and they investigate and decide. The more serious the crime the more likely a deviation as the decision.

Tex

 

[bobmrg]

Hello all,

I recently started IFR training in south Florida. I've had some small issues with my instructor, but I was able to look past them, but in tonights flight and one flight before my instructor has abruptly either pulled back on the yoke, or pushed the nose down. Not gently, but very aggressively. The first time was on the flight earlier this week, and we were not on an IFR flight plan, just a simulated approach, and I understood what he was doing, but I was not a fan of it. On tonights flight, we were on a flight plan and I fell 40 feet below MEA on an approach the first time he did it because I was looking at my TPP to see when I could descend further. The second time was when we were going missed on the approach, and we were enroute to our holding fix, the TPP began to slide off my leg and I looked down to grab it and reposition it. Tonight was the straw that broke the camels back, and I told him to take me back to the airport, that is not the way to train a student, especially without warning me about my altitude.

The reason my instructor does these abrupt movements is so we don't get a deviation (altitude bust). My question is: How far off from altitude do we have to be before we are given a deviation?

You should have the elevator trim set so that you can let go of the yoke to fiddle with something in the cockpit or eat your lunch without losing altitude. This is a fundamental airmanship problem. The first few hours of instrument training should be devoted to totally boring but essential training in basic aircraft control by instrument reference: no navigation, no approaches, no talking on the radio, just learning to transition from level to a climb, from a climb to level, level turns, speed changes without altitude change, etc etc etc.

Bob Gardner

 

[sarangan]

Hello all,

I recently started IFR training in south Florida. I've had some small issues with my instructor, but I was able to look past them, but in tonights flight and one flight before my instructor has abruptly either pulled back on the yoke, or pushed the nose down. Not gently, but very aggressively. The first time was on the flight earlier this week, and we were not on an IFR flight plan, just a simulated approach, and I understood what he was doing, but I was not a fan of it. On tonights flight, we were on a flight plan and I fell 40 feet below MEA on an approach the first time he did it because I was looking at my TPP to see when I could descend further. The second time was when we were going missed on the approach, and we were enroute to our holding fix, the TPP began to slide off my leg and I looked down to grab it and reposition it. Tonight was the straw that broke the camels back, and I told him to take me back to the airport, that is not the way to train a student, especially without warning me about my altitude.

The reason my instructor does these abrupt movements is so we don't get a deviation (altitude bust). My question is: How far off from altitude do we have to be before we are given a deviation?

ATC is not your checkride examiner. Altitude or heading deviations will become an issue only if there is a loss of separation. 40-ft is certainly not going to do that, but regardless, you should strive to do better. How your CFI is handling this sounds very odd, perhaps he/she is a bit green.

 

[sarangan]

You should have the elevator trim set so that you can let go of the yoke to fiddle with something in the cockpit or eat your lunch without losing altitude. This is a fundamental airmanship problem. The first few hours of instrument training should be devoted to totally boring but essential training in basic aircraft control by instrument reference: no navigation, no approaches, no talking on the radio, just learning to transition from level to a climb, from a climb to level, level turns, speed changes without altitude change, etc etc etc.

Bob Gardner

VSI becomes the key instrument in this case. Before looking away, trim to get VSI=0. Even if it drifts to 100 fpm, and you look away for 15 seconds (which is pretty long in this context), you will only change altitude by 25 ft.

 

[Palmpilot]

Hello all,

I recently started IFR training in south Florida. I've had some small issues with my instructor, but I was able to look past them, but in tonights flight and one flight before my instructor has abruptly either pulled back on the yoke, or pushed the nose down. Not gently, but very aggressively. The first time was on the flight earlier this week, and we were not on an IFR flight plan, just a simulated approach, and I understood what he was doing, but I was not a fan of it. On tonights flight, we were on a flight plan and I fell 40 feet below MEA on an approach the first time he did it because I was looking at my TPP to see when I could descend further. The second time was when we were going missed on the approach, and we were enroute to our holding fix, the TPP began to slide off my leg and I looked down to grab it and reposition it. Tonight was the straw that broke the camels back, and I told him to take me back to the airport, that is not the way to train a student, especially without warning me about my altitude.

The reason my instructor does these abrupt movements is so we don't get a deviation (altitude bust). My question is: How far off from altitude do we have to be before we are given a deviation?

You should have the elevator trim set so that you can let go of the yoke to fiddle with something in the cockpit or eat your lunch without losing altitude. This is a fundamental airmanship problem. The first few hours of instrument training should be devoted to totally boring but essential training in basic aircraft control by instrument reference: no navigation, no approaches, no talking on the radio, just learning to transition from level to a climb, from a climb to level, level turns, speed changes without altitude change, etc etc etc.

Bob Gardner

ATC is not your checkride examiner. Altitude or heading deviations will become an issue only if there is a loss of separation. 40-ft is certainly not going to do that, but regardless, you should strive to do better. How your CFI is handling this sounds very odd, perhaps he/she is a bit green.

Mr. Byrd may not see your posts; it looks like he hasn't been back to the forum since January.

 

[Velocity173]

Yes! Revisting ATC topics 6 months later and providing no new feedback to the OP.

 

[Timbeck2]

Oh well, its good information for the rest of us in IFR training.

 

[bobmrg]

Mr. Byrd may not see your posts; it looks like he hasn't been back to the forum since January.

I suffer from Flight Instructor Syndrome. This is a malady that causes instructors to seize upon the least excuse to bloviate upon some aviation subject. Looking back to see when the original was posted cannot stop the sufferer from spilling his/her vast store of knowledge on unsuspecting subjects. It is incurable.

Bob