Busted Checkride write up

And honestly, I talked to a handful of other people about how it was going and my debate to go back or not. I didn't mention any names, but a few new exactly who I was talking about when I described it (not by location either).

I would guess that my talking about that, which was less detailed then here, got back to him. I say that by the way he acted on the actual checkride. I knew about a minute after getting in that it wasn't going to go well no matter what happened.
 
I've sent half a dozen trainees to that DPE (sat through the oral on all but one of them), and found him to be polite, respectful, and fair. YMMV.

The OP's CFI was well aware of this guy's reputation and thought he wasn't pulling that crap any more so it's not just Gitmo's say so. I give Gitmo a lot of credit/credibility for describing his experience in a matter of fact manner.

If half of it is true, this DPE needs to be out of the business. Period.
 
And honestly, I talked to a handful of other people about how it was going and my debate to go back or not. I didn't mention any names, but a few new exactly who I was talking about when I described it (not by location either).

I would guess that my talking about that, which was less detailed then here, got back to him. I say that by the way he acted on the actual checkride. I knew about a minute after getting in that it wasn't going to go well no matter what happened.

I just wish the instant the bad juju started up again, you let him know you were firing his a$$. :mad: :D
 
Unfortunately, I was trying to fit it in. On Monday im going on military orders for a month or more. I was hoping to get it done so when I was out in Colorado springs I could do some training to fly in the mountains
 
Unfortunately, I was trying to fit it in. On Monday im going on military orders for a month or more. I was hoping to get it done so when I was out in Colorado springs I could do some training to fly in the mountains

Bummer, that sucks.
 
Maybe for the best. My CFI has a new DPE he's using now and he comes recommended by other board members.

On the same note, if I'm not too busy studying more maps and orbital physics, the flight school gives military discounts and there are some more very highly recommended examinders there.

It's going to be tight though. Either way this will be a nice break. I've been an infantry officer for years. Time to get a desk and a computer vs map, compass, and Ruck sack
 
So sorry you had to go through that, do you think it would of mattered if you pushed back and showed a little back bone and took charge he would of backed off?

I busted my oral on a silly question. Asked me how I figured TAS, I had no clue because I always flew that plane and was told to use 105. I didn't know their was a formula, he said go ask your CFI and when I figure it out to let him know. Well it was silly to not know, the flying part was uneventful.

Keep your chin up and you'll nail it next time.
 
That may have been the case. We'll never know. At work I have some people who I have to be firm with, other need the ring kissed. I don't like going either way, prefer to just be casual.
 
What an unpleasant story. I'm sorry to hear your ride was such a negative experience.
As a CFI, i make sure every DPE a student engages with is *fair*. Strict is not a disqualifying characteristic, far from it, but rude, angry, discourteous.. never. You are the customer, the DPE accepted your check. They have a duty of care too.
Most DPE's (almost by definition) are passionate aviators and keenly aware of the part they play in keeping us all safe. Find another one, and keep flying. If you're in this for fun, go have some! If you're in it for work, go have some fun too. A busted checkered is not disqualifying. Ask your CFI how he did on his Initial CFI :)
 
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R&W has said this before, but FAA Order 8900.2 governing DPE conduct of practical tests says otherwise.
IOW, it's not the DPE's choice, it's the applicant's, although the DPE must agree.

Your reading comprehension is really bad Ron. :nonod:

IOW, it's not the DPE's choice, it's the applicant's, although the DPE must agree.

Correct on the not announcing the failure after the event. The part of terminating or allowing the check ride to continue is at the discretion of the DPE.

but the folks in AFS-600 who conduct DPE training told me that is not true.

And to be clear here, Ron L. has never attended any sort of DPE training or refresher put on by the FAA, and Ron L. has zero experience in administering check rides. :rolleyes:


And to the readers of this thread, I apologize for Ron L.'s hijack of this thread to attempt to prove one of his inane points. :nonod:
 
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Oh and I forgot to add the forced taxiing my airplane over tie-down ropes.

We pulled into the parking area and I was going to park as usual.. taxi up, give it a turn, shut it down then push it back.

He said NO and to taxi it straight over the tie down ropes (within about 3 feet of the nose wheel).

I said I wasnt comfortable doing that. He raised his voice and said "JUST TAXI RIGHT OVER THE SPOT". I said "Its my airplane and I dont want to take that risk. He said "JUST STEER IT TOWARD THE SPOT"

That kinda continued, i eventually relented and did it. I'm still not comfortable with the thought of being that close to the ropes and I was taught not to do that, but whatever


If he'd have pulled that **** in my airplane he would have gotten to see my angry side.

My airplane, my prop, my repair bill, you can go **** yourself, DPE or not.

That said, I've taxied over ropes in my day. At IDLE while still moving with momentum.

If I have to ADD power to get there, I'll shut down and move the airplane myself with the tow bar.

I have a pretty good friend who had wild mood swings into severe anger, which sounds similar to this guy. He didn't know it, but he was suffering from most of the plumbing to his heart being plugged and needing a massive Roto-Rooter job. (Not a pilot.)

Hopefully this guy isn't fighting a medical problem he isn't aware of.

My friend's demeanor went straight back to normal, after he had a heart attack and got treated. The lack of O2 to his noggin made him a total prick for about three months.

Put it behind you, go get the confidence back with the CFI. Perform everything to better than PTS standards by a large margin, and go again. You'll get it on the next go, and it'll feel like it was too easy.

As a tip. Don't say "I'm not comfortable with that.", if there's a next event like that. That sounds like vague uncertainty if you're not careful. Say, "I will NOT do [say the exact thing] with MY airplane." That exudes control and doesn't create any question as to what you mean.

You don't have to give a reason why if it's not on the PTS. It's your decision as PIC. Period. No passive aggressive stuff if the other person is pushy. Push back. You can be polite and simply say "no".
 
We have a winner.

Yesterday after my checkride, I admitted my errors to my CFI but also gave my problems with the whole process as described and he named a DPE he'll be using from now on instead. I looked him up on the FAA DPE locator and left a message.

He called me this morning to chat. I gave a very brief description of it. More or less said I was uncomfortable and the DPE was too rude. The DPE immediately guessed the name of the other DPE and said "I've had a few of his guys with slips come to me".

He kind of explained the process, gave me FAR citations to write down that more or less said I have a legal entitlement to credit for what I've already accomplished, for 60 days, so if I decided not test with him, I could point the next CFI/DPE to the procedures. We then chatted a bit and I can tell you from how that went that we have a winner.

I'm already comfortable with this guy. His only point of contention is he (jokingly) said that if I kept addressing him as "Sir", he was going to deduct points. The gentleman was also recommended by a POA member or two. The hardest part now is decided whether to attempt to do it in colorado or wait until I come back.
 
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We have a winner.

Yesterday after my checkride, I admitted my errors to my CFI but also gave my problems with the whole process as described and he named a DPE he'll be using from now on instead. I looked him up on the FAA DPE locator and left a message.

He called me this morning to chat. I gave a very brief description of it. More or less said I was uncomfortable and the DPE was too rude. The DPE immediately guessed the name of the other DPE and said "I've had a few of his guys with slips come to me".

He kind of explained the process, gave me FAR citations to right down that more or less said I have a legal entitlement to credit for what I've already accomplished, for 60 days, so if I decided not test with him, I could point the next CFI/DPE to the procedures. We then chatted a bit and I can tell you from how that went that we have a winner.

I'm already comfortable with this guy. His only point of contention is he (jokingly) said that if I kept addressing him as "Sir", he was going to deduct points. The gentleman was also recommended by a POA member or two. The hardest part now is decided whether to attempt to do it in colorado or wait until I come back.

Good deal, best of luck to you. :thumbsup:
 
We have a winner.

Yesterday after my checkride, I admitted my errors to my CFI but also gave my problems with the whole process as described and he named a DPE he'll be using from now on instead. I looked him up on the FAA DPE locator and left a message.

He called me this morning to chat. I gave a very brief description of it. More or less said I was uncomfortable and the DPE was too rude. The DPE immediately guessed the name of the other DPE and said "I've had a few of his guys with slips come to me".

He kind of explained the process, gave me FAR citations to right down that more or less said I have a legal entitlement to credit for what I've already accomplished, for 60 days, so if I decided not test with him, I could point the next CFI/DPE to the procedures. We then chatted a bit and I can tell you from how that went that we have a winner.

I'm already comfortable with this guy. His only point of contention is he (jokingly) said that if I kept addressing him as "Sir", he was going to deduct points. The gentleman was also recommended by a POA member or two. The hardest part now is decided whether to attempt to do it in colorado or wait until I come back.

Can he work you in before you ship? Might be able to salvage your schedule, that would be good. It can be a short one since you only need to cover the pink slip items. He might help you out to establish the relationship for future rides if nothing else. Heck, considering recent experience with the FAA and a 709 ride, I would give fair odds if you went into the FSDO and your situation including schedule, you might get a ride out of them, and it will be free.
 
Unfortunately the weather is garbage today. Sunday is my first wedding anniversary and I'm (now) leaving at 8 am monday morning. He's booked in advance for months.

I'm going to fly in Colorado, but this guy makes me want to hold out to build the relationship. Maybe I'll get lucky though. I'll try to give him a call about tomorrow a bit later
 
We have a winner.

[snip happened]

The hardest part now is decided whether to attempt to do it in colorado or wait until I come back.

Regardless of whether or not you take a check ride out here, get a few training flights in. There is no real substitute for the experience of high elevation airports and the effects of density altitude. You can go up in the hills with an instructor prior to getting the PP certificate, just work with them and let'em know what ya want to do. There are folks providing PP training at some of the mountain airports so maybe take a weekend and enjoy a couple of early morning flights.
 
Thats a good idea. I'm interested to trying it out because before now the highest airport I've landed on was 1200 feet and that was on the flight from Indiana to Maryland, we made a stop in WV for refuel.

I'll also have to get familiar with the airplane. I fly my own, and its an original 172. With a headwind I can pretty much trim it just right that it will land itself (other than the flare), based on flap settings. Not so much with the newer models

EDIT: And yes, I planned that route, did all the calculations, etc. It actually went pretty darn well
 
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Assuming we can exclude the physical parts of the question like weight and balance (we'd be over) and weather (rain), yes I can. I can fly and I'm confident in my ability. I'm not perfect of course, but I can safely fly between point A and B. I wouldn't take them all he first time I went if the airport was unfamiliar to me. Take for example, Easton airport, which I've actually taken my CFI along so I could fly with family members to lunch. It's just under 50nm and I would feel absolutely safe.

Alrighty then. But, when the DPE signs you off, he's letting you loose to the entire world by air. The DPE was an ass about the whole thing but I'm hoping you realize that once you have the ticket, you can go anywhere with anyone up to the limits of your rating. Technically, you could plan an international flight from Skagway AK all the way to Belize City once you get your PPL.

I think you are a safe flier but I don't know you, and if he won't sign you off, notwithstanding his bad attitude, then he found deficiencies that need to be corrected. Maybe he's the kind of old-school guy that puts you under pressure to see how you react to an emergency. Bad form, but sounds like he was successful in rattling you.
 
Unfortunately the weather is garbage today. Sunday is my first wedding anniversary and I'm (now) leaving at 8 am monday morning. He's booked in advance for months.

I'm going to fly in Colorado, but this guy makes me want to hold out to build the relationship. Maybe I'll get lucky though. I'll try to give him a call about tomorrow a bit later

Yeah, it's a pink slip, he can likely get you done in 20 minutes.
 
Not an assumption, but certainly a possibility.

Understand the DPE is not bound by the discrepancies only on the pink slip. If he suspects any other deficiencies he is by all rights allowed to check the airman on those as well.

Always go into a recheck prepared to be tested on any or all items.
 
Understand the DPE is not bound by the discrepancies only on the pink slip. If he suspects any other deficiencies he is by all rights allowed to check the airman on those as well.

Always go into a recheck prepared to be tested on any or all items.

If he is going to do that, then the chances of being worked in to the schedule are certainly reduced.
 
I don't know who's PIC on the checkride, but if he forced to you to drive over the tie down rope as a part of your checkride, I would have done it at full power, with the brakes dragging to insure I picked up the rope with the prop and caused an engine teardown. Then, I'd sue him into oblivion.

Seems to me if he orders you to taxi over a tie down rope, you're not really PIC? But again, I admit I don't know the finer points of who is in charge.
 
It is very clear in the rules, the candidate is PIC unless the DE takes it.
 
I don't know who's PIC on the checkride, but if he forced to you to drive over the tie down rope as a part of your checkride, I would have done it at full power, with the brakes dragging to insure I picked up the rope with the prop and caused an engine teardown. Then, I'd sue him into oblivion.
Right. :rolleyes:

Or you could just say hell no and ignore him. If he takes control of the plane and picks up the rope, THEN you sue.
 
Right. :rolleyes:

Or you could just say hell no and ignore him. If he takes control of the plane and picks up the rope, THEN you sue.

This works too. If the examinee is the PIC and under examination, he can refuse and make the examiner do it. Of course, that will surely lead to a fail, but it gets the point across. If I owned the plane(when I took my checkride back in the 70s it was in my own plane), I would just refuse, shut down, and take my lumps. Then, I'd write the letter to the FAA citing 'safety' etc.
 
This works too. If the examinee is the PIC and under examination, he can refuse and make the examiner do it. Of course, that will surely lead to a fail, but it gets the point across. If I owned the plane(when I took my checkride back in the 70s it was in my own plane), I would just refuse, shut down, and take my lumps. Then, I'd write the letter to the FAA citing 'safety' etc.
Taxiing over tiedown ropes isn't in the PTS. ;)

Refusing to do something that's not in the PTS "shouldn't" lead to a bust. Of course, we all know that the DPE has the power to make the ride so hard that Bob Hoover would fail (slight exaggeration of course...).

Personally I would stick to my guns and see how the situation develops. Sometimes there's a middle ground that saves face and the ride - as I found out on my instrument ride when the DPE tried to rattle me during my ILS with a "safety of flight issue" (a 2 ppm reading on my CO monitor) and wouldn't take "I'm PIC and I'm telling you this is no cause for concern" for an answer. I would have discontinued the ride before I let things go any further south, but luckily I was able to BS him.

In the OP's case though, the ride was already over and he had busted. There would have been nothing to lose -- he was simply intimidated.
 
Sorry for your experience. Assuming everything described is accurate then this DPE should be relieved of his checkride duties. There's no excuse for yelling or abusive behavior towards the examinee.

There's of course the official complaint route, but given that it sounds like this guy has a bad reputation your CFI and his/her CFI buddies should simply stop sending applicants to this guy.

Aviation is a small community. This isn't the DMV where you just get a random examiner that picks up your file... If this guy is a mess then the local flying community should just sideline him by refusing to give him any business.
 
Taxiing over tiedown ropes isn't in the PTS. ;)

Refusing to do something that's not in the PTS "shouldn't" lead to a bust. Of course, we all know that the DPE has the power to make the ride so hard that Bob Hoover would fail (slight exaggeration of course...).

Personally I would stick to my guns and see how the situation develops. Sometimes there's a middle ground that saves face and the ride - as I found out on my instrument ride when the DPE tried to rattle me during my ILS with a "safety of flight issue" (a 2 ppm reading on my CO monitor) and wouldn't take "I'm PIC and I'm telling you this is no cause for concern" for an answer. I would have discontinued the ride before I let things go any further south, but luckily I was able to BS him.

In the OP's case though, the ride was already over and he had busted. There would have been nothing to lose -- he was simply intimidated.

It was already a bust anyway, so that's not even in consideration. The best thing to do is go to the FSDO, relate the experience and expires your concerns regarding Alzheimer's, because the behavior is congruent with early stages. You might even do him a favor in the long run.
 
In the OP's case though, the ride was already over and he had busted. There would have been nothing to lose -- he was simply intimidated.

It was already a bust anyway, so that's not even in consideration. The best thing to do is go to the FSDO, relate the experience and expires your concerns regarding Alzheimer's, because the behavior is congruent with early stages. You might even do him a favor in the long run.
Yep, I did say that.

But why would you suspect the DPE has Alzheimer's, based on what the OP has related? Sounds more like a garden-variety ornery, disagreeable sort of character to me. Lots of people with personality issues in this world, it's not always pathology.
 
Sorry for your experience. Assuming everything described is accurate then this DPE should be relieved of his checkride duties. There's no excuse for yelling or abusive behavior towards the examinee.

There's of course the official complaint route, but given that it sounds like this guy has a bad reputation your CFI and his/her CFI buddies should simply stop sending applicants to this guy.

Aviation is a small community. This isn't the DMV where you just get a random examiner that picks up your file... If this guy is a mess then the local flying community should just sideline him by refusing to give him any business.


I wouldnt say that all of them avoid him, but I know there is a significant portion who do. Earlier I was in a flight school further from my home and they mentioned him specifically in that way. Other flight instructors guessed who it was by description, and other pilots warned me prior.

Either way, my CFI suggested if I get a survey that I be honest. Its true though, there are three sides to every story.
 
Yep, I did say that.

But why would you suspect the DPE has Alzheimer's, based on what the OP has related? Sounds more like a garden-variety ornery, disagreeable sort of character to me. Lots of people with personality issues in this world, it's not always pathology.

Because it introduces a key word to the file.;)
 
In a different discussion I was reminded of the VOR part.

In the oral, he pointed to the map and said "lets say you're in this area but you're not sure where, how would you find your location".

The area I'm in has some distinctive features, so I started with "First, I would climb higher and try some terrain association" I described the landmarks because I'm very familiar with that area.

He said "okay, what about the VOR, how would you use that". I said "Since I only have one VOR I would probably plug in one and navigate to it" (as one option) and explained how to do that. It's one of a few options. He got very upset again and said "NO you would plug in frequency..." then, went through the process of explaining radial intersection to locate, which I knew, but it wouldnt be my first choice of options, I just didnt get a chance to elaborate on all the ways.

Later in the check ride, when we did the VOR navigation back, we did some of the maneuvers and he got snippy and said "Lets navigate back via VOR, because I dont think you know how to use them".

So thats when I plugged it in, followed the radial back to within sight of the airport, called tower, got my pattern entry, runway, etc and he got upset that after that I let the needle go once I had the airport in site and was talking to tower.

Maybe my choice in how to handle being lost wasnt the order he preferred, but to me it seemed easier to fly a few minutes to a VOR vs getting out a pencil, drawing lines, tuning stuff in, etc while flying, but I dont think there's a prescribed order.
 
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In a different discussion I was reminded of the VOR part.

In the oral, he pointed to the map and said "lets say you're in this area but you're not sure where, how would you find your location".

The area I'm in has some distinctive features, so I started with "First, I would climb higher and try some terrain association" I described the landmarks because I'm very familiar with that area.

He said "okay, what about the VOR, how would you use that". I said "Since I only have one VOR I would probably plug in one and navigate to it" (as one option) and explained how to do that. It's one of a few options. He got very upset again and said "NO you would plug in frequency..." then, went through the process of explaining radial intersection to locate, which I knew, but it wouldnt be my first choice of options, I just didnt get a chance to elaborate on all the ways.

Later in the check ride, when we did the VOR navigation back, we did some of the maneuvers and he got snippy and said "Lets navigate back via VOR, because I dont think you know how to use them".

So thats when I plugged it in, followed the radial back to within sight of the airport, called tower, got my pattern entry, runway, etc and he got upset that after that I let the needle go once I had the airport in site and was talking to tower.

Maybe my choice in how to handle being lost wasnt the order he preferred, but to me it seemed easier to fly a few minutes to a VOR vs getting out a pencil, drawing lines, tuning stuff in, etc while flying, but I dont think there's a prescribed order.

This was your error (not that his reaction was appropriate, just that this is what you did that precipitated it). You started with the fall back position for only one station available first. You can find an intersection, or position on a chart, quite simply with only one radio, so articulating that having one radio was a limitation is what caused him to question your competence and fly off the handle. I did my IFR training and checkride in a 172 with a single KX-170B and an ADF. When the examiner got in and looked at the panel he said, "You've got balls, you know I'm going to give you an intersection hold right?" "Bring it on." When the time came I found it and turned right, "That's good, if you could find the intersection and knew which way to turn, I'm sure you can fly the hold."

Make things simple and complete.
 
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In the oral, he pointed to the map and said "lets say you're in this area but you're not sure where, how would you find your location".

I would of talked through the 4Cs - Climb, communicate, confess, comply - as an option. That probably would of been the end of that question, however if he asked about VORs then he was looking for you to know how to find the location of where you are at that moment using a radial or intersection of two different VORs. I would never just pick a VOR and aim towards it hoping I get somewhere, not knowing what airspace I'll go through or what obstacles are in the way.
 
I have the 4Cs, including having them as a "Lost" checklist, it was specifically geared toward that. As far as know the airspace, we knew what airspace it was and what was around, just werent sure where we were in the imaginary box.

The point that iHenning had was probably what he intended to get across. I'm familiar in both methods, it was just my personal preference in that order. I didnt argue with him.
 
He wanted him to dial in one VOR and establish a line of position using that radial (use the From flag setting, yes you can easily transpose them no worries, don't), and then switching to a different VOR and repeating the process creating crossing LOPs and establishing your fix. That is what was expected, and rightfully so. If you can demonstrate that, you have demonstrated full knowledge. Everything else is just part of that.

I'll give a checkride tip for the diversion. Look at your sectional charts, see the lines of latitude that run across the page from east to west? Those are spaced 30' apart which = 30 NM. Place your hand perpendicular between those lines and stretch out your forefinger and pinky and place one on each line.

You now have everything you need. Let's take my ride in a 152 for example that I fly at 90 kts and 6 gph, so I know that it's going to take me 20 minutes and 2 gallons of fuel per finger span. So we navigate along a VOR radial and the DPE says, "Oh, it's solid IMC ahead we're going to have to divert, take me to KXYZ, it's clear on the other side of the hills." So I pull out the chart, find KXYZ, turn in that General direction by reference to a mountain peak I pointed out I was using, then I set my finger gauge, walked it up the chrt in 3 seconds, 2 gallons at a time and told him, "I can't get there, We don't have the fuel, but I can get to this airport a bit further north." He asked, "How did you figure it that fast?" and I explained it to him. He nodded and went into teaching mode. When a DPE goes into teaching mode they have passed you in their mind, it is now yours to lose. Be ready to drink from the firehose though, because if you have a good DPE, when they go into instructor mode, they fill in a lot of info fast.
 
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Hey Gitmo....

Keep the faith....

BTW...I did my primary at Brandywine KOQN. way way way back when....
 
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