Busted Checkride write up

steingar said:
You have a beta amyloid or presenillin allele loose in your family. They act as autosomal dominants (you get the allele, you get the disease). You are very, very lucky it's in another branch and not yours.

I watched my old man go from it, and it isn't a pretty sight. He was actively and obviously symptomatic when he was eight years older than I am right now.
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Agree. It is apparently passed through matrons. My genetic grandmother, my aunt, my male cousins. My mom was spared and thus I was too.

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timwinters said:
I don't agree. If the OP's story is relatively accurate, and I have no reason to suspect it's not, then others and the FSDO need to be warned about this guy.

Why should someone stay quiet and let this guy waste/take other students' $500 and give them nothing in return except heartburn? The guy sounds like a real jerk and, worse yet if you trust Levy's tales, a Jekyll/Hyde jerk.
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Maybe the CFIs that get poor reviews about him should simply avoid sending students to him? Or, sit in on the oral portion and see for themselves.
 
TMetzinger said:
Agree. It is apparently passed through matrons. My genetic grandmother, my aunt, my male cousins. My mom was spared and thus I was too.
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Your mother had a fifty percent chance of inheriting it and got lucky. Those others not so much so.

Then again, I tell my students when tailing about Huntingtons that one can do all sorts of things before one is thirty. Alexander the Great conquered the known world. David Baltimore got he Nobel Prize. All sorts of things.

It would suck if I got it like my father, but I really can't complain. I've had a really really good ride.
 
Gitmo, firstly, thanks for posting this. Sorry you had to deal with that overwhelmingly negative and unprofessional DPE. I have no doubts that you'll git 'er done and this will all be nothing more than an unpleasant memory sooner rather than later. Really curious about the DPE though, wondering if its one we use up here at CXY. Feel free to PM me if you ever wanna chat.
 
timwinters said:
So you use a private conversation as a means to throw him under the bus publicly?
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A few dozen people here are ready to throw this DPE under the bus just because one person says he had a bad experience with him. All I ever said was that I have worked with this DPE for several years and half a dozen practical tests, and have seen nothing like the behavior the OP says he observed. Further, for someone with no medical qualifications who has never met this DPE or seen him at work to even suggest the DPE might have Alzheimer's on the basis of that one report is unconscionable.

I agree with R&W and the others who said the thing for the OP to do is discuss this with the FSDO. They have the responsibility and the authority to do the research and make the determination whether there is reason to take it further.
 
I have a question relating to the OP that does not have anything to do with if the DPE has a mental illness or not.

Why would the OP take the test with a DPE if the CFI had questions with the competence of the DPE? It seems like a really bad idea to take a test with someone who is not totally stable. I mean it is not exactly cheap to take this test... I'd say the OP has some serious questions for the CFI.

I'd just re-take the test with a new DPE and enjoy the pilots license that is to come for years and years to come. Good luck on the re-test!
 
Palmpilot said:
That would not tell you much if he shapes up when the applicant's CFI is present. :dunno:
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No, but there don't seem to be complaints in that situation. If the DPE doesn't like a flight planned on a particular template, the CFI will find out first hand and maybe ask for a reason that the applicant might not think to ask. If the DPE asks for a flight to be planned from point A to point B, then gives the applicant a hard time for not planning it back to point A, the CFI can be there to say "That's not what you asked" or at least get clarification on the context of the comments.

Checkrides can be stressful, and it can be easy for an applicant to take a comment the wrong way. Another perspective in the room could help.
 
Keep in mind that a great deal of what we experience comes from our personal methods of communications. I could put two people in the same room, have them watch an interaction. One would think it was highly efficient and effective and the other would be incredibly uncomfortable with the event and think one person was constantly sniping at the other.

That said - the DPE is supposed to be at the top. They need to go out of their way to make sure the candidate is comfortable and that their behavior doesn't become the deciding factor. Regardless of reality, that obviously didn't happen here. The DPE made the OP nervous, was critical enough that the OP believes he "yelled" and the OP's skills and decision making on the test suffered because the DPE's demeanor rattled him. Yes, as the PIC the candidate should be able to fly anyway...but he can also stay on the ground if he is not at the top of his game. He really doesn't have that choice when he needs the DPE in the airplane.

For the OP - shake it off. Focus back on your flying and your weaknesses. It sounds like you have a few things that can be improved. When you go back and take your next check ride (with a different DPE), you'll breeze through.

At best - register a complaint with the FSDO about the DPE's unprofessional demeanor and then forget it. The FSDO will use that as a data point. Maybe yours is the fourth or fifth data point they get and that prompts them to investigate something. Recognize that this might have just been poor interpersonal communications, so don't push too hard.
 
jspilot said:
I have a question relating to the OP that does not have anything to do with if the DPE has a mental illness or not.

Why would the OP take the test with a DPE if the CFI had questions with the competence of the DPE? It seems like a really bad idea to take a test with someone who is not totally stable. I mean it is not exactly cheap to take this test... I'd say the OP has some serious questions for the CFI.

I'd just re-take the test with a new DPE and enjoy the pilots license that is to come for years and years to come. Good luck on the re-test!
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I am not trying to (nor can I) answer for the OP but merely provide my view on this.

I went for a checkride with a "hard-a**" DPE for two reasons: he was close-by and he knew his stuff and while he is definitely hard on applicants, he is also fair.
My reasoning was: what good is a license if I can just "purchase" it from an easy examiner?
And I did not regret my decision. The exam wasn't easy but the oral went very well and then I found out a flying deficiency and got a chance to retrain and retest. In the end, I learned a lot from this hard DPE.
Had I gone to an easy examiner, I would have felt like I cheated and just skated by without actually knowing whether I am good at this or not.

Gitmo, get the retest elsewhere, that is one thing that I like about the system, you don't need to finish with your original DPE.
Good luck and let us know how it goes!
 
Ron Levy said:
A few dozen people here are ready to throw this DPE under the bus just because one person says he had a bad experience with him.
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Well, except that no one knows who he is...except you and the OP.

The OP, OTOH, even though not using his real name here, is a member of this community and should be supported, not thrown under the bus, unless he proves himself throw-worthy and I haven't seen that proof, have you?

No one knows what happened during his check ride except for the two people involved and if you don't think a DPE would be on his best behvior when a crusty old-fart instructor is in the room as compared to when he has fresh meat solo, then, well, I can't help you.

Is that DPE an old military buddy of yours by chance? Sure sounds like it...both because of the way he acted and your staunch defense of him.
 
Matthew said:
No, but there don't seem to be complaints in that situation. If the DPE doesn't like a flight planned on a particular template, the CFI will find out first hand and maybe ask for a reason that the applicant might not think to ask. If the DPE asks for a flight to be planned from point A to point B, then gives the applicant a hard time for not planning it back to point A, the CFI can be there to say "That's not what you asked" or at least get clarification on the context of the comments.

Checkrides can be stressful, and it can be easy for an applicant to take a comment the wrong way. Another perspective in the room could help.
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I'm not sure that it's acceptable for the CFI to be saying anything during the examination.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not sure that it's acceptable for the CFI to be saying anything during the examination.
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That's probably true, and probably for good reason. But if it's a question of "I told you to do this!" and the CFI knows full well he didn't...
 
Just coming across this thread. Sounds like to me if the DPE has an attitude like that, hes not worth dealing with. My suggestion is to find another DPE that others use and like, the DPE should never yell at his/her examinee. DO NOT let this get you down and discouraged.
 
I read the first paragraph and wondered if you were in my AOE. Sorry, tahts a crappy story. Keep at it.
 
steingar said:
The results of these "medication regimes" are horrifically oversold, I suspect by the drug companies that manufacture them. You get Alzheimers you get to grow stupid and die. And no, it isn't pretty. Sorry its happening to your old man. Don't expect it to get any better.
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Correct, however there is a broad range of detriment. Granted, I have very limited exposure, but of the three I have, and am, dealing with, my dad who is on a regime, has far fewer symptoms, and has no delusional episodes. His cognitive function is still reasonably intact a decade in.

While I have no doubts that the results are bringing greatly oversold, to say there is no effect would be hard to swallow. Regardless though, doing nothing or doing everything, he will still degrade, it's just an issue of scale and speed.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not sure that it's acceptable for the CFI to be saying anything during the examination.
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That's pretty much true, unless the DPE comes up with something really off the wall and the CFI intervenes to save both the applicant a bust and the DPE some embarrassment. Actual example:

DPE asks about the qualifications for a safety pilot, and the applicant correctly answers "PP, cat/class, medical". The DPE says, "No, the safety pilot must be fully PIC-qualified" including flight review, HP/complex, landings, etc. CFI asks DPE where that's written, and leads the DPE to the written guidance (including a Chief Counsel letter) which says the applicant's answer is correct. DPE thanked me for pointing this out to him.

I have more examples, but I'll leave them for another thread.
 
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Ron Levy said:
That's pretty much true, unless the DPE comes up with something really off the wall and the CFI intervenes to save both the applicant a bust and the DPE some embarrassment. Actual example:

DPE asks about the qualifications for a safety pilot, and the applicant correctly answers "PP, cat/class, medical". The DPE says, "No, the safety pilot must be fully PIC-qualified" including flight review, HP/complex, landings, etc. CFI asks DPE where that's written, and leads the DPE to the written guidance (including a Chief Counsel letter) which says the applicant's answer is correct. DPE thanked me for pointing this out to him.

I have more examples, but I'll leave them for another thread.
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:rolleyes2:
 
Good luck next time your story kinda reminds me of my checkride. Busted the first one before we even flew DPE seemed ****ed about everything and anything . went back to him and it was like I couldn't fail.
The whole thing is frustrating cause DPE's can fail you for anything or give you an easy ride. DPE's can play stump the idiot on the oral or give you a 30 minute lets chat session. Or be like mine and be bipolar in attitude.

It kind of amused me after I failed though cause I thought to myself well I'm apparently not qualified to fly according to the FAA contractor but somehow i'm allowed to leave this busy controlled airspace navigate to a field 60 miles away with dead reckoning where I'll land safely in between mountains on a 2000ish ft grass strip. :yes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
:rolleyes2:
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Does anyone else envision how these conversations would go in real life? We're all sitting around the table saying various things, and Rotor&Wing is alternately rolling his eyes, busting a gut laughing, and saying "YGTBSM!" It would be a hoot! :yes:
 
Ron Levy said:
That's pretty much true, unless the DPE comes up with something really off the wall and the CFI intervenes to save both the applicant a bust and the DPE some embarrassment. Actual example:

DPE asks about the qualifications for a safety pilot, and the applicant correctly answers "PP, cat/class, medical". The DPE says, "No, the safety pilot must be fully PIC-qualified" including flight review, HP/complex, landings, etc. CFI asks DPE where that's written, and leads the DPE to the written guidance (including a Chief Counsel letter) which says the applicant's answer is correct. DPE thanked me for pointing this out to him.

I have more examples, but I'll leave them for another thread.
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Is this really another CFI with chief counsel opinions at the ready, or did you just tell a story about yourself in the third person? :wink2:
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Is this really another CFI with chief counsel opinions at the ready, or did you just tell a story about yourself in the third person? :wink2:
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Had an event such as this really happened, the DPE would have escorted said CFI out of the room and shut the door behind him, then continued his examination. :rolleyes: :rofl:
 
Considering how their stories can be so similarly outrageous, I've oft thought that Henning and Levy are really the same person.

Has anyone ever seen them in the same room?

:goofy:
 
timwinters said:
Considering how their stories can be so similarly outrageous, I've oft thought that Henning and Levy are really the same person.



Has anyone ever seen them in the same room?



:goofy:
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I find these threads entertaining. Sort of like Harry Reems and Ron Jeremy comparing tool sizes.


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I heard secondhand how it actually happened: The DPE just laughed, shook his head, said "You're right!", and chalked it up to his worsening Alzheimer's.
 
Clearly, the DPE in question was on drugs. I saw him first hand shooting up heroin right before the checkride and he was in a very bad mental state.

Someone needs to report the DPE to the FSDO as a drug abuser.
 
Henning said:
Correct, however there is a broad range of detriment. Granted, I have very limited exposure, but of the three I have, and am, dealing with, my dad who is on a regime, has far fewer symptoms, and has no delusional episodes. His cognitive function is still reasonably intact a decade in.

While I have no doubts that the results are bringing greatly oversold, to say there is no effect would be hard to swallow. Regardless though, doing nothing or doing everything, he will still degrade, it's just an issue of scale and speed.
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Every sufferer responds differently. My old man took his time and had no delusional episodes at all, just got lost a lot. I'd say his symptoms were mild for a good decade (sufficiently so that we didn't realize he has Alzheimers). Depends on the status of the patient on diagnosis, age, and disease progression. I am very, very skeptical of any gains from drugs. Keep in mind that the major monoamine uptake inhibitors (Prozac and its pals) are indistinguishable from placebo in double blind trials.
 
falconkidding said:
Good luck next time your story kinda reminds me of my checkride. Busted the first one before we even flew DPE seemed ****ed about everything and anything . went back to him and it was like I couldn't fail.
The whole thing is frustrating cause DPE's can fail you for anything or give you an easy ride. DPE's can play stump the idiot on the oral or give you a 30 minute lets chat session. Or be like mine and be bipolar in attitude.

It kind of amused me after I failed though cause I thought to myself well I'm apparently not qualified to fly according to the FAA contractor but somehow i'm allowed to leave this busy controlled airspace navigate to a field 60 miles away with dead reckoning where I'll land safely in between mountains on a 2000ish ft grass strip. :yes:
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I am sure you know this, but for the record, the FAA (based on your CFI's endorsement) trusted you with your own life only (no pax). I think that's a fair compromise, since we need to know how to fly on our own before becoming a rated pilot. But I get the sentiment (BTDT). :wink2:
 
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timwinters said:
That was tough to read. My passive aggressive tendencies likely would've gotten the best of me had it been me.

Hang in there!
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Mine too....... My CFI warned me that the DPE he was sending me to had slapped a couple of students mid flight (one on the hand the other in the torso)Both busted obviously...As my Oral and flight portions where a month apart.. I made sure to inform the DPE I knew of these situations and that I would not tolerate it.......We had a lovely flight and even when I screwed the pooch on one maneuver he stayed very calm....

To the OP...this situation will probably make you a better pilot in the long term, so dust yourself off and get right back on the horse..
 
falconkidding said:
Good luck next time your story kinda reminds me of my checkride. Busted the first one before we even flew DPE seemed ****ed about everything and anything . went back to him and it was like I couldn't fail.
The whole thing is frustrating cause DPE's can fail you for anything or give you an easy ride. DPE's can play stump the idiot on the oral or give you a 30 minute lets chat session. Or be like mine and be bipolar in attitude.

It kind of amused me after I failed though cause I thought to myself well I'm apparently not qualified to fly according to the FAA contractor but somehow i'm allowed to leave this busy controlled airspace navigate to a field 60 miles away with dead reckoning where I'll land safely in between mountains on a 2000ish ft grass strip. :yes:
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He just wanted the re-test fee. I've seen this Jekyll/Hyde act before when it comes to being un-godly strict on the first ride and soft as a kitten on the second one.
 
Okay, I have no idea if Ron is telling tall tales, but just FYI, something like that happened during my instrument oral so it isn't so far fetched. My CFII sat in on the oral part, and when the DPE asked me an open-ended question about pre-flighting my 480, he was about to bust me for not talking about RAIM calculations. I calmly said that because my 480 is WAAS, it is not necessary to do a RAIM calculation unless the system reports that WAAS is not available. The DPE at first balked at that answer, and I was prepared to look up the relevant paragraph in the AIM, but my CFII piped up in support of my point, and the DPE backed down.

And no, the DPE did NOT escort my CFII from the room... it was just a learning moment for the DPE, and he took it well (or seemed to, anyway).
 
azure said:
Okay, I have no idea if Ron is telling tall tales, but just FYI, something like that happened during my instrument oral so it isn't so far fetched. My CFII sat in on the oral part, and when the DPE asked me an open-ended question about pre-flighting my 480, he was about to bust me for not talking about RAIM calculations. I calmly said that because my 480 is WAAS, it is not necessary to do a RAIM calculation unless the system reports that WAAS is not available. The DPE at first balked at that answer, and I was prepared to look up the relevant paragraph in the AIM, but my CFII piped up in support of my point, and the DPE backed down.

And no, the DPE did NOT escort my CFII from the room... it was just a learning moment for the DPE, and he took it well (or seemed to, anyway).
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First of all, you don't "bust" an oral part of the examination by missing one question. If the examiner is ready to fail you on the GPS question, then you had several other deficiencies preceding that portion.

While the 8900.2 does allow a CFI to be present during the oral portion of the exam
c. Test Environment. The examiner must conduct the oral portion of the practical test in a private area free from distractions. The examiner must give the applicant his/her undivided attention during the test and ensure that any discussion of test results with the applicant is in private. However, by mutual agreement from both the applicant and the examiner [emphasis added: both the applicant and the examiner must agree], the applicant's flight instructor or the school's chief instructor or assistant chief may be allowed to be present during the practical test.
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it does not allow for the CFI to participate. Any comments from the observer should be held until after the examination is complete and during the debrief.

Called an old friend that teaches at the Academy in OKC, of the several courses he teaches are DPE Oversight and DPE Initial/Recurrent. I ran this by him about an Instructor observing a examination and interrupting the oral and "correcting" the examiner. He said first of all, totally unprofessional on the CFI's part, and second he confirmed that while the 8900.2 gives the CFI a right to be there, it does not give them the right to participate. He also added that examiners are reminded to tell observers that they must remain quiet during the exam.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
First of all, you don't "bust" an oral part of the examination by missing one question. If the examiner is ready to fail you on the GPS question, then you had several other deficiencies preceding that portion.
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That inference was mine alone and based on the way he was acting, like he had caught me in something I was really expected to know, but didn't (which, if my GPS was, say, a non-W 430, it would have been). There were a couple questions I missed prior to that which he just let slide, but on this point he seemed to think it was a major deficiency on my part. Maybe it wasn't going to be a bust, but definitely a major point deduction.
Called an old friend that teaches at the Academy in OKC, of the several courses he teaches are DPE Oversight and DPE Initial/Recurrent. I ran this by him about an Instructor observing a examination and interrupting the oral and "correcting" the examiner. He said first of all, totally unprofessional on the CFI's part, and second he confirmed that while the 8900.2 gives the CFI a right to be there, it does not give them the right to participate. He also added that examiners are reminded to tell observers that they must remain quiet during the exam.
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Well of course I can't comment on that, but I relayed accurately what went down at my oral. Maybe it was unprofessional of my CFII, and maybe the DPE was supposed to tell him to shut up. But I'll bet a lot of things go on at practical exams that aren't strictly by the book. Anyway the point was, this particular deviation from what is supposed to happen did occur at least once, so I wouldn't be so dead certain that Ron is spouting BS.
 
RotorAndWing said:
It was just recently a forum regular told us while he was in basic training he didn't allow his drill Sargent to yell or use vulgar language towards him.

You mean that doesn't work??
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Perhaps in the Air Force or Navy, but most assuredly it would not have ended well in Army or Marine basic/boot.

I've been through both Air Force and Army basic training. Air Force basic was like a few weeks of my mom being mad at me. :redface:
 
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