Busted Bravo Today

[CC268]

Well...I wasn't going to post this...I'll probably regret it, but what the heck. Filed a NASA ASRS report already.

Background: I frequently make flights to Eloy, Gila Bend, and Coolidge after work in order to build hours. These are routes I am very familiar with and I do the VFR Bravo transition several times a week. I am genuinely comfortable operating the in the Class B around here.

Departing KDVT I contacted KPHX Approach and asked for the VFR transition to the south. I normally specify my destination (Eloy, Gila Bend, Coolidge) as KPHX will typically give me Flight Following automatically (or sometimes they will ask if I want Flight Following as well) in addition to the VFR transition. This time I did not specify my destination - just that I wanted to do the transition to the south. I was given a squawk code, cleared through the Bravo, and assigned the East transition at 4500 feet.

Just after passing Phoenix SkyHarbor and completing the Bravo Transition (just past the SFC - 9000 foot Bravo shelf) the controller stated something like, "Cherokee XXXXX, leaving Phoenix Class Bravo airspace, squawk VFR, frequency change approved." I acknowledged, "squawk VFR, frequency change approved, XXXXX". Shortly after, I began a climb to my cruise altitude of 5500 feet, not paying attention to the fact that the Bravo shelf extended down to 5000 feet until further out (about 10NM south of PXR VORTAC it starts at 6000 feet). This whole situation was sort of ironic considering I am normally very cognizant of the Bravo airspace and make sure to stay well clear of it unless I am doing the Bravo transition or have a Bravo clearance.

At some point in the 5000-9000 foot Bravo shelf, the controller asked if I was still on frequency. I affirmed that I was still monitoring. At that point he let me know that I was in Class Bravo airspace (at 5500 feet) and needed to descend immediately. It caught me off guard how "nonchalant" he was about it. He was actually very friendly and professional about it. He then told me I could contact KPHX Approach on 123.70 (which I am very familiar with) if I wanted to pick up Flight Following. So obviously I booked it down to 4500. Took the wind out of my sails the rest of my flight, but oh well. It was really an honest mistake. Don't really have any excuses...wasn't distracted, etc.

And that was that. So when I got home I filed the NASA ASRS report.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Thanks for sharing. Don't take it too hard. It was a post-certificate education. No number to call, no one likely to have been hurt or killed. Go fly some more aerobatics.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Done it.

 

[RyanB]

Don’t let it drag on ya. It happens. I came close to busting the Charlie airspace here not long after receiving my certificate a few years back, by doing a similar thing that you did. Ended up not being a bust, but it was very close. It was a learning lesson, and I imagine this will be for you too. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Ravioli]

Don't sweat it. I think we all hit the fringe every now and then (if we're honest).

Doesn't sound like the controller was too concerned. More likely an "oh, by the way" reminder type call.

 

[Clark1961]

License to learn. Many more lessons to come. Take’em to heart.

I was pax when a commercial rated guy busted the DEN Bravo. My comment during the flight was that I’d never been so close to DEN in a Cessna (which technically wasn’t true but that’s a different story). There was no messing around when ATC gave him a number to call. If you weren’t given a number chances are there was no conflict created and you won’t be investigated. And flight following is a really good thing around a Bravo.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I was squawking 1200 in Bravo airspace today going from half moon bay to Concord for a good 5 minutes today. Solve that riddle

 

[Clark1961]

I was squawking 1200 in Bravo airspace today going from half moon bay to Concord for a good 5 minutes today. Solve that riddle

I’ve gone through the DEN Bravo while not squawking...okay it was 1 am and approach had a primary return.

 

[denverpilot]

Also done it. And the NASA form.

Have talked to instructors who’ve accidentally let students do it and both got the phone number to call.

Have talked to a DPE who lamented that he has to sit there and watch it develop and not say a word but stop the ride before the candidate actually busts the airspace. Then after the sad news and a maneuver away from the airspace, the question if they want to continue... bummer of a way to end a checkride.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Was on a United flight out of DEN a couple decades back and listening to the cockpit radio transmissions on one of the airplane music entertainment channels. We were climbing and leveling, climbing and leveling. One time we were climbing and then descended abruptly for a few seconds. ATC said something on the radio to the pilot about altitude bust. (Never heard anything on that channel the rest of the flight.)

 

[AWACSEng]

I've come close a few times under the BWI shelf. Especially on the warm summer days with updrafts tossing me around, when I let myself creep up just a bit too much. Mistakes happen, action or not, lesson learned and move on!

 

[EppyGA]

I soloed at Gila Bend back in 1971 on December 19th.

 

[mscard88]

Controller didn't give you a number to call so hopefully you weren't reported.

 

[luvflyin]

I was squawking 1200 in Bravo airspace today going from half moon bay to Concord for a good 5 minutes today. Solve that riddle

Ain't no law saying they gotta give you a discrete code to identify you and give ya a Bravo clearance. As far as that goes, there ain't no law saying they have to identify you to give you a Bravo clearance. I assume you was chattin with them and did get a clearance.

 

[luvflyin]

Was on a United flight out of DEN a couple decades back and listening to the cockpit radio transmissions on one of the airplane music entertainment channels. We were climbing and leveling, climbing and leveling. One time we were climbing and then descended abruptly for a few seconds. ATC said something on the radio to the pilot about altitude bust. (Never heard anything on that channel the rest of the flight.)

Was the pilot standing there saying 'bye bye, thanks for flying united' when you got off the plane?

 

[flyingron]

Ain't no law saying they gotta give you a discrete code to identify you and give ya a Bravo clearance. As far as that goes, there ain't no law saying they have to identify you to give you a Bravo clearance. I assume you was chattin with them and did get a clearance.

Certainly can get a clearance without radar indenting. You'd never be able to depart from the surface area otherwise.

Can't say I ever got a clearance without also a discrete code, except for the couple of times we NORDO'd it in and out of Dulles.

You definitely do not want to be squawking 1200 inside the SFRA/FRZ. Even on the ground it annoys the sleeping tiger.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Ain't no law saying they gotta give you a discrete code to identify you and give ya a Bravo clearance. As far as that goes, there ain't no law saying they have to identify you to give you a Bravo clearance. I assume you was chattin with them and did get a clearance.

Close. I was on an IFR flight plan when I cancelled, the controller told me my descent was approved and asked me to squak vfr and frequency changed approved. Interestingly, I called Concord tower while still in the class B. Never actually received a VFR class B clearance... I was cleared into it with my previous IFR clearance.

 

[Kritchlow]

Certainly can get a clearance without radar indenting. You'd never be able to depart from the surface area otherwise.

Can't say I ever got a clearance without also a discrete code, except for the couple of times we NORDO'd it in and out of Dulles.

You definitely do not want to be squawking 1200 inside the SFRA/FRZ. Even on the ground it annoys the sleeping tiger.

Not sure about a Bravo specifically, but many years back before most airplanes had transponders ATC would identify you by giving you a couple 30° turns.

 

[flyingron]

Not sure about a Bravo specifically, but many years back before most airplanes had transponders ATC would identify you by giving you a couple 30° turns.

Correct, radar identification doesn't strictly require a transponder at all. It can be done based on the primary return. We used this to our advantage trying to come in near-NORDO into IAD one night. The aircraft electronics had taken a dump and the handheld was next to dead. ATC gave us a turn to identify and another to signal that we did want to land at IAD.

 

[luvflyin]

Not sure about a Bravo specifically, but many years back before most airplanes had transponders ATC would identify you by giving you a couple 30° turns.

Yup. They can still do that. Only one turn is needed but two is usually used. Identification can also be done based on position report. If there is a target where you say you are and its 'tracking' in the direction you say you are going, that's enough for identification.

 

[denverpilot]

I’ve gone through the DEN Bravo while not squawking...okay it was 1 am and approach had a primary return.

Why’d you do it at 1AM? Last time I did it my ferry permit said I could go anytime I wanted as long as they approved on the phone. It was mid-afternoon.

 

[Clark1961]

Why’d you do it at 1AM? Last time I did it my ferry permit said I could go anytime I wanted as long as they approved on the phone. It was mid-afternoon.

Transponder failed enroute. It happened to be about 1 in the morning when I got to Denver at the end of a 1,000 mile trip. After that I had the 327 installed after Freedom made two feeble attempts to repair the ancient Collins transponder that the plane was born with.

 

[Velocity173]

Yup. They can still do that. Only one turn is needed but two is usually used. Identification can also be done based on position report. If there is a target where you say you are and its 'tracking' in the direction you say you are going, that's enough for identification.

And 3rd, target observed within 1 mile off the departure end of the runway. Probably the most popular primary radar ID method if I had to guess.

 

[bflynn]

In this case, three types of pilots. Those who have done it, those who are going to and those who will never try.

 

[Palmpilot]

In this case, three types of pilots. Those who have done it, those who are going to and those who will never try.

I've never tried to bust bravo.

 

[denverpilot]

In this case, three types of pilots. Those who have done it, those who are going to and those who will never try.

I've never tried to bust bravo.

Beat me to it. LOL.

 

[Clark1961]

I've never tried to bust bravo.

I've had several bravo busts...oh, wait, that's not what was meant...nevermind.

 

[mscard88]

And 3rd, target observed within 1 mile off the departure end of the runway. Probably the most popular primary radar ID method if I had to guess.

Can be accomplished anywhere V, not just what you described.

 

[Zeldman]

I've had several bravo busts...oh, wait, that's not what was meant...nevermind.

I have busted "A" a few times.....

 

[mscard88]

I have busted "A" a few times.....

 

[Zeldman]

Yep, something similar to that...

 

[Velocity173]

Can be accomplished anywhere V, not just what you described.

Yeah, anywhere that has a tower and radar within 1 mile of the runway.

 

[mscard88]

Yeah, anywhere that has a tower and radar within 1 mile of the runway.

No, I mean out in the area for instance. Say you have a C150 student lost, no transponder. Issue the 30* turn and then he is identified. Or did I miss something here and you're referring to something else?

 

[Velocity173]

No, I mean out in the area for instance. Say you have a C150 student lost, no transponder. Issue the 30* turn and then he is identified. Or did I miss something here and you're referring to something else?

Luv listed 2 (30 degree turns, position correlation) of the 3 primary target ID methods. I was just giving the 3rd one of target observed within 1 mile off the departure end.

 

[Shawn]

Have talked to a DPE who lamented that he has to sit there and watch it develop and not say a word but stop the ride before the candidate actually busts the airspace. Then after the sad news and a maneuver away from the airspace, the question if they want to continue... bummer of a way to end a checkride.

I almost had that happen on my IFR Check Ride...DPE royally pizzed me off for some reason, we departed VFR to the next approach but straight out bumps right into Charlie airspace. Being ticked off, not resetting Foreflight to VFR map from my last instrument approach and a false sense of security being "familiar" with the area...we take off straight out and I catch him out of the corner of my eye looking out the window then back and forth on his ipad with Foreflight..."better figure out what he is looking at" I think to myself and pull up the VFR map on my iPad..."OH CHIT!" [in my head]...quick bank right. Missed busting Charlie by literally seconds and he would have let me cruise right through which would have been the end.

To the OP...had a controller tell me that unless the bust causes a separation or deviation issue they will most likely just shoo you away for obvious inadvertent incursions on the outskirts and not worth their time to make a formal report and pilot deviation. Sounded like it actually happens all the time!

 

[zaitcev]

I have busted "A" a few times.....

They used to have a box over Moriarty in NM where glider pilots could ride a wave into A without filing an IFR plan. It had to be set up ahead of time and activated with a phone call. In fact, when I learned that glider pilots do file IFR plans elsewhere, it came as a big surprise.

 

[BigBadLou]

Like others said, don't sweat it too much. But sweat it a little, to learn a lesson and hopefully let it sink in to never make that mistake again. We learn from mistakes, can't change that. Can only accept that.

I have heard Bravo controllers often add something like "remain clear of the Bravo" after I exit around here. It is a gentle and kind reminder that I am still under some shelves. I like it.
Can any controllers here elaborate on that? Is it just a local SOP or maybe a personal habit? No FAA order to issue this warning?

 

[Timbeck2]

Thanks for sharing C. Somebody other than yourself will learn something here.

 

[flyingron]

Yeah, I heard RIC approach once transmit (not to me): "Do you know how close you came to hitting another aircraft?"

 

[Shawn]

I have heard Bravo controllers often add something like "remain clear of the Bravo" after I exit around here....Is it just a local SOP or maybe a personal habit?

I fly all the time though SFO, LAX and have been though LAS...that seems to be SOP verbiage upon exiting any Bravo basically telling VFR pilots that their clearance is now void and you need a new one to head back in.

That is relevant especially in SFO where it is common to fly through Bravo, go do a sight seeing "Bay Tour" just north of and under Bravo airspace then head back home through the Bravo. I could see how some yahoo might think they were cleared to go back though if that was not spelled out.