Building

Old97

Old97

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Old97
So the urge to build a plane is getting stronger.

Its not good timing. My son is 6 months. I am not flying hardly at all. Work is not good and will only get worse as oil prices keep rising.

But i think i would really get a kick out of it. I think maybe an RV9 - not too expensive, not too hot, not too difficult to build.

A 4-place would be more practical but i feel like an RV is the ideal first build and i dont want to spend the dough for an RV10. Maybe a bearhawk in a few years when the boy is old enough to help some.

My brother is finishing up his private and live close enough to help. He built a nice hotrod from a basket case so im pretty sure he and i could do it.

Anybody in the same boat? Words of caution?
 
Words from a sage old multiple airplane builder (all plans built, no kits) I know: "If you start now, even if it takes you 10 years, in 10 years you'll have something. If you don't start, in 10 years you'll have nothin".

Best part is you can start with the empennage, doesn't take a lot of money, doesn't take a huge amount of room, and see how you like it.
 
An airplane is a HUGE project. You have no idea. One thing I will say (from personal experience) is that young kids are a pretty good fit for the airplane building lifestyle. They go to sleep relatively early and sleep through the night. So you can build your airplane in the evenings when they are asleep.

Building an airplane has something in common with buying one. Buy the one you really want first. Don't get there through a series of half steps. It'll be easier to build one RV-10 than an RV-7 AND an RV-10...
 
Can you build it in your garage, or someplace very close by? That's the key, so you can work on it, at least a little bit, every day.


 
I built my 6A when my 4 kids (these people kept calling me Dad, so I guess I was responsible) were a bit older. As a result, it took me close to 10 years to complete it. Basketball, baseball, track, cross county, volleyball, band, piano, theater. You get the drift. Other things were way more important.

Since the little one is so little, now may be a good time. Otherwise you may take close to 10 years to build it.
 
You are going to spend the time onsomething. Why not an airplane?

But do not kid yourself that it is “not too expensive”. It will be 25k for the kit, another 25-30k for the engine and you still have to buy instruments.

When you have built the airframe, it will be about 1/3 done. But like the man said, if you don’t start, then in 10 years you will have nothing.
 
I'm not sure I understand the "not too expensive" part, especially in the context of 6 month old and the worsening work situation. By the time you hang an engine on an RV, you're going to be into it for a minimum of around $75k, and that's for a bare-bones plane with a used engine. Common options get you closer to $100k.

There are a lot of airplanes that can be had in pretty good condition for a lot less money than that. There are a lot of more capable planes that can be had for the same budget, and you can be flying as soon as you can make a deal.

Building is what you do if you absolutely want to build and because no certified plane meets your wishlist, not because you want to save money.
 
Well i do see building as an end unto itself. Im an engineer. I build stuff. I would not build because i need a plane.

I could probably handle a 75k budget. I would not be willing to handle a 125k+ budget, which is what i am seeing as all-in ballpark costs for building an RV10.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Building is what you do if you absolutely want to build and because no certified plane meets your wishlist, not because you want to save money.
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It allows you to spread the cost over several years of building. And while you might spend more money up front on an Experimental, when you're done you have a brand new plane. Get a Repairman Certificate and you can do your own condition inspections. My RV is two years old, and the last annual cost me three days of my time/labor plus $35 for new brake linings.

But yes, you must truly want to build, and make an absolute commitment to it. The classifieds on VAF are littered with half-completed tail kits and broken dreams.

And that first flight in something you built yourself, in your garage? A certified plane can't compete on pucker factor. :)
 
I'm a little envious of the guys who have the ability to take on a project of this scale. Sometimes just mowing my yard seems daunting to me, and that only takes me about 40 minutes.
 
Challenged said:
I'm a little envious of the guys who have the ability to take on a project of this scale. Sometimes just mowing my yard seems daunting to me, and that only takes me about 40 minutes.
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I'm one of the lazier people on earth, but I totally got sucked into building. I just couldn't wait to get on to the next step, learn a new skill, or dust off an old skill that needed a tuneup. There's a lot of time spent researching solutions and poring over build logs of others who have tackled similar planes.

Above all, keep imagining yourself flying it one day!!! Eyes on the prize. :D
 
No matter how you slice it, it's going to be a monumental task and will take years of effort, and that's even if you can work on the project consistently almost every day. The thing is your available time that you can devote to the project will potentially decrease over time as your son gets older (sports, school activities, etc). However, the reward at the end is almost indescribable, just make sure you go into this with realistic expectations.

I recommend taking a real hard look at what your flying mission will be in the future once the project is complete: number of seats, VFR/IFR, range, cruise speed, etc and then determine what make/model best fits the requirement. It may well be an RV-9, but a hard look may drive you to an easier kit like an RV-12, or something completely different like a plans built Pietenpol.

Another thing to consider for your budget are the smaller ticket items that never seem to get discussed but it all adds up. Tools, paint, misc parts, and shop supplies can easily add $10K-$15K and more to the project,. And these costs tend to be insidious as they happen a little at a time vs all at once. There might also be some costs associated with setting up a shop space too, some of which are intangible. By that I mean make sure your spouse is 100% on-board and you have factored her into the decision (your time, money, noise, etc). For example, when I was building my 10, eventually I had to move from my basement to the garage. My deal with her was during the winter, that she'd be able t keep her car in the garage. I complied with that request by making my project rollable --I'd move her car our , roll out whatever I was working on and then put it and the car back when I was done, Happy wife, happy life.

Finally, don't forget to take a look at ownership costs once you have an airplane: insurance, taxes (sales, use, and/or property), hangar/tiedown rent, database updates, fuel cost, and maintenance costs and set asides plus any construction loans if you didn't pay cash. The point is the bills don't stop once the last rivet is set.
 
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Your looking at years,if you keep at it on a regular basis. You might consider a project that’s already been started,either way good luck.
 
Challenged said:
I'm a little envious of the guys who have the ability to take on a project of this scale. Sometimes just mowing my yard seems daunting to me, and that only takes me about 40 minutes.
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Some people are challenged! ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist)
 
Old97 said:
Well i do see building as an end unto itself. Im an engineer. I build stuff. I would not build because i need a plane.

I could probably handle a 75k budget. I would not be willing to handle a 125k+ budget, which is what i am seeing as all-in ballpark costs for building an RV10.
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RV-10 is a fairly expensive kit to build. I went in thinking it was going to be around $150K and I'm well over that now. There are some pretty cool kit planes out there sub 100K you could build and as someone else said it's not a race so you can take your time. In fact after I finish this 10 I'm sure I'll buy an RV-8 empennage and get going at it again.
 
The OP could think about a Sonex. Less money invested, less airplane to build. Not as fast as a Vans, but can be powered by a much less expensive auto engine. Says me build if you want to build, don't build because you want airplane X. They can be purchased for roughly the price to build them.
 
Look at the statistics at Vans. The ratio of kits bought to planes flying is not small. Two guys on my field are building other people's partial built RV6's they bought for almost nothing. Not surprising how many put a panel on backwards or make some mistake which demoralizes the builder and they give up.
 
I'd love to think I could build one, but after watching my hangar neighbor go through the process of building an RV14 (quick build), I have realized I would NEVER have the patience to build one. The amount of work is tremendous. I'd love to buy one already built though (choose my own paint and panel).
 
One thing to remember about building... you have NO ONE to answer to but yourself. If you do it in 2 years, great. If it takes you 20.. so what?? YOU set the priority that you put on the project.

I spent 3 years working on an RV-7, sold it due to medical issues. Bought a flying RV-12, never looked back. Now I'm building again, not because I need a plane, but because I want a project. Will it ever be done? I don't know. Maybe,maybe my wife and kids will use the pieces for wall decorations or firewood. It's not my top priority, but something to do when I feel like doing it, and maybe someday I'll fly it. I know some builders have a totally different attitude about things - good for them.

Do what you want. It's your time and your money, no one else's.
 
Going the prebuilt route, get a decent -6 or -7 with nasty, Jurassic gauges, and then build the panel of your dreams. Believe me, the panel by itself will keep you busy for awhile, and it goes a long way toward defining the character of the aircraft. After that, really trick out the interior, etc, etc. They're never completely done. :)
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Going the prebuilt route, get a decent -6 or -7 with nasty, Jurassic gauges, and then build the panel of your dreams. Believe me, the panel by itself will keep you busy for awhile, and it goes a long way toward defining the character of the aircraft. After that, really trick out the interior, etc, etc. They're never completely done. :)
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You ain’t a kiddin’!! I thought I was going to take a month at most to do my panel upgrade. 3 months later I’m still working out programming/settings squawks. Mine is not an elaborate panel either.

Must be me.....
 
Skyrys62 said:
@DaleB how you like that -12 ?
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It's about 60 knots too slow and not aerobatic. :) Seriously, I love it. If you have to fly LSA and don't just putt around the pattern and make the occasional pancake run, it's tough to find something better for anywhere near the money. 120 KTAS on MOGAS. Room for two big guys, or two normal people and a couple of bags. Modern panel with GPS coupled AP, light and responsive like you'd expect an RV to be. Incredible visibility. I'm happy with it.
 
Never. The wings come off once a year for the condition inspection. It does make it easier to do the work, but honestly I'd just as soon leave them on permanently.
 
The idea that building an airplane is less expensive than buying an airplane is almost always wrong. I found that out when I built my first Cub. I validated it with the second. If you want to build? Build. If you want to fly? Buy.
 
DaleB said:
Never. The wings come off once a year for the condition inspection. It does make it easier to do the work, but honestly I'd just as soon leave them on permanently.
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I would think it a nice thing so you can put more aircraft in your hangar (or stash it in a trailer).
 
steingar said:
I would think it a nice thing so you can put more aircraft in your hangar (or stash it in a trailer).
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In theory, sure. In practice, it's a two-person job that takes 10-15 minutes, and cannot be done IN the typical T-hangar. I suppose you could build a helper cart to get them on and off solo, but it would add a pretty big hassle factor to flying. I'm sure the removable wings work out well for a few, but most of us never have them off unless required.
 
What's your hours flying? How many hours can you fly for $100K if you don't buy an Experimental? Its cheaper to rent and fly, write a note on invoice if something is wrong and walk away. If you've flown a lot and CAN'T rent or buy used what you want, then it's time to build like I did. A 500 hour "quick build" to first flight kit with folding wings for the garage was major requirement. Additional optional HP upgrade work after test flying wasn't "required" but upped the hours to over double, and tripled the STOL Amphib budget to over 200K but, it may be the most versatile light airplane ever made.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
What's your hours flying? How many hours can you fly for $100K if you don't buy an Experimental? Its cheaper to rent and fly, write a note on invoice if something is wrong and walk away. If you've flown a lot and CAN'T rent or buy used what you want, then it's time to build like I did. A 500 hour "quick build" to first flight kit with folding wings for the garage was major requirement. Additional optional HP upgrade work after test flying wasn't "required" but upped the hours to over double, and tripled the STOL Amphib budget to over 200K but, it may be the most versatile light airplane ever made.
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Every one forgets restoring a classic. In 10 years and the money it costs to build a RV-10 you could have a real beauty.
Know of three projects that could be completed with in these parameters and be worth around $350,000 when done.
 
Tom-D said:
Every one forgets restoring a classic. In 10 years and the money it costs to build a RV-10 you could have a real beauty.
Know of three projects that could be completed with in these parameters and be worth around $350,000 when done.
Click to expand...

The problem is, not everyone has an ia like you on the field that will work with them or have the expertise to rebuild some of the classics. Can get real expensive without a good friendly ia.

Bob
 
Yup, rebuilding requires training, approved parts, and all sorts of expensive goodies. Building an experimental requires raw material and some amount know-how.
 
Right - rebuilding would be really cool, but im thinking you have to know an awful lot just to pick the right project.

I do have one AP/IA friend, so that would probably be ok, but where to start? Find a basket case Reliant? A 120/140 would probably be a more reasonable first project. If you are going to rebuild might as well be something cool.
 
steingar said:
Yup, rebuilding requires training, approved parts, and all sorts of expensive goodies. Building an experimental requires raw material and some amount know-how.
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And you get to wait years to fly. If I were looking for an aircraft that will hold its value, fly really well and be able to fly now as you, clean, strip, and up grade. I'd be on this.

1952 C-170 B
 
Old97 said:
If you are going to rebuild might as well be something cool.
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First of all before you buy, find out what it will sell for, if that isn't at least twice what you can buy it for, don't buy it.
Hard lessons learned. I bought the F24 for 40k. I flew it home and it took 10 years to restore, at that time I was working full time, and could only spend nights after work & weekends I tied up 90k in the restoration.
Sold it to the insurance company for 55k. I simply did not increase the coverage as the aircraft increased in value.

Remember something cool is one thing, nice to have. some thing that will sell for what you have into it is better.

My F-24
watch
 
Tom-D said:
Every one forgets restoring a classic. In 10 years and the money it costs to build a RV-10 you could have a real beauty.
Know of three projects that could be completed with in these parameters and be worth around $350,000 when done.
Click to expand...

Do tell. I can't think of a thing that fits that category (a classic worth $350k when finished). OK, one. Staggerwing.

But that would be an amazing amount of work and you'd be left with an airplane that is beautiful, hard to use as transportation, and has an extremely limited pool of potential buyers. You could be "stuck" with that $350k gem for years before finding a buyer. And if you sold it before you completed it, ouch.
 
kyleb said:
Do tell. I can't think of a thing that fits that category (a classic worth $350k when finished). OK, one. Staggerwing.

But that would be an amazing amount of work and you'd be left with an airplane that is beautiful, hard to use as transportation, and has an extremely limited pool of potential buyers. You could be "stuck" with that $350k gem for years before finding a buyer. And if you sold it before you completed it, ouch.
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Try to buy a restored Stinson SR 6 thru 10
or
Cabin WACO
If you can even find one for sale.
but the project will cost 50-60k
 
kyleb said:
Do tell. I can't think of a thing that fits that category (a classic worth $350k when finished). OK, one. Staggerwing.

But that would be an amazing amount of work and you'd be left with an airplane that is beautiful, hard to use as transportation, and has an extremely limited pool of potential buyers. You could be "stuck" with that $350k gem for years before finding a buyer. And if you sold it before you completed it, ouch.
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This type of restoration is usually done by a professional restoration companies like the Curry Brothers of Guthry OK. and are usually sold prior to being finished, and for mega bucks.
 
If you're going to build I'd go with something a little faster.

Maybe short wing glasair RG with biggest engine and CS prop you can fit.

I mean if you're going to invest all that time, why build a RS when you could build a SS?
 
Tom-D said:
Try to buy a restored Stinson SR 6 thru 10
or
Cabin WACO
If you can even find one for sale.
but the project will cost 50-60k
Click to expand...
Cabin Waco’s (even fully restored) don’t go for anywhere near Staggerwing prices. Even a Roy Readman (Rare Aircraft) isn’t going to get much over $200k. Maybe $250k.

Even though they are more versatile, Cabins don’t command the same prices that the open ships do with most selling around $100k.
 
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