Boeing 737s Grounded

PPC1052 said:
Yeah, its a 737-800. Hopefully your overhead bins won't attack me. I understand from sources that 14 of those have been grounded, too.
Click to expand...

Yeah, some of the birds retrofitted with the new interiors had problems, but personally I'd be more worried about battle-axe DFW based flight attendants!
 
dmspilot said:
You don't consider a pitch instability requiring MCAS
Click to expand...
There is no pitch instability. There are lighter control forces, as compared to the 737 NG, in high angle of attacks (near stall) and steep turns. MCAS adds a nose-down bias to produce a similar "control feel" in those situations.
 
kayoh190 said:
Yeah, some of the birds retrofitted with the new interiors had problems, but personally I'd be more worried about battle-axe DFW based flight attendants!
Click to expand...

This is a true story-- I have only once in my life flown commercial with a young, attractive flight attendant. That one time it happened, I had gotten seated back in steerage class, and I looked forward to watch the other passengers board. I noticed a tall, blonde, well fit attendant at the front of the plane. She stood out from the others. So, naturally, I kept an eye on her as she went about her job. As she got closer to me such that I could clearly make out her facial features, turns out that she was my cousin! So wrong. I still feel dirty. And cheated.
 
Last edited:
dmspilot said:
You don't consider a pitch instability requiring MCAS (a "bandaid" if you will) to be a significant difference?

?
Click to expand...

MCAS, etc. are not a band-aid. With new modern design technology, efficiency goals, fly by wire etc., computer assisted systems are needed. They make the plane respond correctly which otherwise would/might not. You can't hand fly the B12 without computer assistance.
 
1RTK1 said:
MCAS, etc. are not a band-aid. With new modern design technology, efficiency goals, fly by wire etc., computer assisted systems are needed. They make the plane respond correctly which otherwise would/might not. You can't hand fly the B12 without computer assistance.
Click to expand...

MCAS is not in the same category of those other systems, which were designed together with the aircraft, not bolted on afterward to fix an unexpected problem.
 
Silvaire said:
I don't think we are. Let's go back 50 years and imagine two brand new airliners crash months apart under suspiciously similar circumstances. I'm pretty sure the aircraft would have been grounded pending investigation. That's all that is going on here.
Click to expand...

Lockheed L-188 Electra.

"Three aircraft were lost in fatal accidents between February 1959 and March 1960. After the third crash, the FAA limited the Electra's speed until the cause could be determined." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-188_Electra

Not grounded, just had limitations. We've made the system so safe today, and there are so many people that want absolute safety at all costs, that grounding was the only alternative left.
 
By the way, there are derivatives of the Electra in use today, including 2 NOAA hurricane hunters.

Orion.jpg
 
kayoh190 said:
Heh - it was an inside joke. The -800s had a three position gear handle - UP, OFF, and DOWN. At least at my company, once the flaps were selected up, part of the flow was to move the gear handle 'down' from the UP position to the OFF position. The MAX only has the two positions for the gear - UP and DOWN. The running joke is that someone really used to the three position gear handle would instinctively reach up and move the gear handle on the MAX back to what they intended to be the OFF position - which since such a position doesn't exist - would put the gear back down. As far as I know *nobody* has done this, but we brief it all the time. Nobody wants to be the first. :p
Click to expand...
Having not even seen the inside of a Max, isn’t the gear “handle” a different design? More like a switch? That would slow down something like that from happening, I would think.
 
Not a good PR week for them...

CNN - "In a blistering attack on Boeing, the Air Force's top acquisition official said the company has a "severe situation" with flawed inspections of its new KC-46 air refueling tanker aircraft, after trash and industrial tools were found in some planes after they were delivered to the Air Force.

Dr. Will Roper, assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, technology and logistics, made clear his concerns after visiting Boeing's Everett Washington plant where the plane is assembled. "I left concerned, and I also left thinking Boeing understands they have a severe situation that's going to take top level engagement from their company," Roper said. After discovering the problem, the Air Force stopped accepting the new tankers from Boeing on February 20."

Full story - https://www.wral.com/us-air-force-s...ter-trash-found-on-refueling-planes/18259881/
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Having not even seen the inside of a Max, isn’t the gear “handle” a different design? More like a switch? That would slow down something like that from happening, I would think.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it’s a different design, and also in a slightly lower position on the panel - it’s pretty obvious as you reach for it that it’s different than your standard 737 gear handle. But we joke about it anyway - none of us want to be the first!
 
Tantalum said:
If I'm in Ethiopia.. guess what, I'm not flying commercially on a local carrier.
Click to expand...
I suspect you're orders of magnitude safer on the local air carrier than any other method of traveling long distances, just as you are in the US!

Bell206 said:
As I understand it, the MCAS uses existing controls to change the stabilizer trim, i.e., it did not add anything new to the mechanical control system. As such, the existing emergency procedure for a "runaway stabilizer" is still valid regardless what item commanded the stabilizer to move.
Click to expand...
I would guess it probably is, but the operation of the MCAS sound much more insidious - a slow change than occurs intermittently. Hard to diagnose (especially if you don't know it exists!) compared to a stab trim runaway to the stops.
 
tiger said:
but the operation of the MCAS sound much more insidious - a slow change than occurs intermittently.
Click to expand...
According to reports from the Lion Air crash, the MCAS worked as advertised except it received erroneous data from a mis-installed/inop AoA gauge. And the 4 previous flights were flown with the same issue with no accident. As one retired 737 pilot is quoted: "I guess aviate, navigate, and communicate is no longer applicable if you allow a computer to fly the aircraft." Whether the procedure was for a runaway stabilizer to the stops or not, it was the applicable procedure for the fault. And these are not my words but a number of current 737 pilots opining across the net.
 
Yes, I agree. But to perform the runaway stab procedure, you have to diagnose the runaway stab. A slow stab movement that keeps stopping presumably makes that a little harder, especially if you aren't even made aware that there's a system specifically designed to move the stab very slowly and keep stopping...

ETA: Not that there's any current evidence the MCAS was involved in the Ethiopian crash. Just an observation on the system.
 
Seems like it would be hard not to notice any unwanted stab trim activity on a 737 due to those two huge wheels with the white stripes turning on the pedestal, even if it were slow and intermittent. You’d think that the first time you had to ask yourself “why’s it doing that?” You’d hit those cut-off switches and figure it out but there have been concerns in several recent mishaps that the first thing a pilot does nowadays is check his FMC programming.
 
Silvaire said:
Seems like it would be hard not to notice any unwanted stab trim activity on a 737 due to those two huge wheels with the white stripes turning on the pedestal, even if it were slow and intermittent. You’d think that the first time you had to ask yourself “why’s it doing that?” You’d hit those cut-off switches and figure it out but there have been concerns in several recent mishaps that the first thing a pilot does nowadays is check his FMC programming.
Click to expand...
Except it isn’t uncommon for the auto trim to activate on a semi regular basis. Power changes, Flight Attendants walking in and down the aisle, speed changes all cause the auto trom to work, so it might not be all that obvious right away that something is amiss.
 
tiger said:
Yes, I agree. But to perform the runaway stab procedure, you have to diagnose the runaway stab. A slow stab movement that keeps stopping presumably makes that a little harder, especially if you aren't even made aware that there's a system specifically designed to move the stab very slowly and keep stopping...

ETA: Not that there's any current evidence the MCAS was involved in the Ethiopian crash. Just an observation on the system.
Click to expand...

Greg Bockelman said:
Except it isn’t uncommon for the auto trim to activate on a semi regular basis. Power changes, Flight Attendants walking in and down the aisle, speed changes all cause the auto trom to work, so it might not be all that obvious right away that something is amiss.
Click to expand...

I get it that auto trim is exactly that, it automatically trims based on the things Greg talks about above. But when the airplane no longer does what you want, isn't there a big red button you can push that disables all automation and lets you hand fly the airplane?

I know our planes are dirt simple dinosaurs in comparison, but the Mooney has a big red button on top of the right yoke horn. Push it, and FD/AP/Power trim are all disconnected.
 
tiger said:
Yes, I agree. But to perform the runaway stab procedure, you have to diagnose the runaway stab. A slow stab movement that keeps stopping presumably makes that a little harder, especially if you aren't even made aware that there's a system specifically designed to move the stab very slowly and keep stopping...
Click to expand...
Given that what seems like well over half the private pilots on the internet now know what MCAS is and what it does, what are the odds there is anyone operating a 737 out there that isn't now aware of it?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Except it isn’t uncommon for the auto trim to activate on a semi regular basis...so it might not be all that obvious right away that something is amiss.
Click to expand...

Auto trim activating to keep the aircraft trimmed is one thing but if it's altering your flight path and you continually have to pull back on the yoke because of it that would seem to qualify as "obvious" that something is amiss and it's time to dump the automated part.
 
I've had "autotrim" run wildly away once in a Bonanza in IMC. Looked down to see the trim wheels spinning at full tilt. In that case, it wasn't an equipment problem, as much as the operator (me) was stupid enough to get caught up in a microburst.
 
I found this sort of frightening. This is one of the complaints about the 737MAX from a pilot.

"In addition, there are two selector knobs that are under-explained (i.e., not explained) in the manual, and we were uncertain what their purpose was. One is under the Fuel Flow switch and the other under the MFD/ENG TFR display switch. These knobs don't seem to work in flight. The First Officer offered to hit the SEL function in flight, to test it out, but I thought something irreversible or undesirable might happen (not knowing what we were actually selecting), so we did not try it out in flight. The mechanic later explained SEL on the First Officer side was used on the ground by maintenance to toggle between the maintenance functions. I forgot to ask what my side did, and still don't know."

I find it frightening a pilot would even think about hitting the SEL function in flight if he/she has no idea what it would do? I mean, piloting an aircraft with hundreds of souls onboard isn't a time to try out some science experiments.
 
From an AOPA article....
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ail&utm_content=tts&utm_campaign=190314epilot

An airline pilot with 737 MAX-8 flying experience who wished to remain anonymous explained to AOPA that the new augmentation system affected the stabilizer trim but noted several ways to defeat it. “It doesn’t move any primary controls,” and MCAS doesn’t function when the autopilot is active. “When the autopilot is on, it isn’t even a player,” the pilot added. Switching off the electric trim overrides the system and cut-off switches are located on the center pedestal “near the red fire cutoffs between the pilot and first officer and both of them” can access the switches. The pilot also noted MCAS doesn’t work if flaps are extended in the aircraft’s normal takeoff configuration.

A system malfunction “should appear to a pilot the same way a runaway trim wheel appears,” the pilot continued. “The result is that we have a runaway trim checklist—and a procedure” to work around it. You turn off the electric trim and go to a manual reversion. It’s something we train for. It is true that Boeing didn’t tell anyone about it [MCAS]—so that is problematic.”
 
I heard "jack screw" for the first time this morning on Good Morning America. First time I've heard it relating to the Max 8's.
 
gdwindowpane said:
I heard "jack screw" for the first time this morning on Good Morning America. First time I've heard it relating to the Max 8's.
Click to expand...
Anything with stabilizer trim is likely to have a jackscrew. That would cover most, if not all, transport jets.
 
I just had a thought. Yes I know I'm just an old Piper driver but sometimes I still have one. Given that the European Union was among the first to ground the Max and the testing of the black box is in Paris, could a major competitor of Boeing headquartered somewhere in Europe be laughing all the way to the bank? Hmmmm? ;)
 
wsuffa said:
By the way, there are derivatives of the Electra in use today, including 2 NOAA hurricane hunters.
Click to expand...
The engine mounts were modified to prevent the "whirl mode" that tore the wings off.
 
PPC1052 said:
she got closer to me such that I could clearly make out her facial features, turns out that she was my cousin! So wrong. I still feel dirty. And cheated.
Click to expand...

One’s closer relatives often appear attractive to people out of context. Was it a first or second cousin though
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Given that what seems like well over half the private pilots on the internet now know what MCAS is and what it does, what are the odds there is anyone operating a 737 out there that isn't now aware of it?
Click to expand...

But we are dealing with 3rd world pilots here


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
[QUOTE="wsuffa, post: 2695367] We've made the system so safe today, and there are so many people that want absolute safety at all costs, that grounding was the only alternative left.[/QUOTE]

That is a bit dramatic. Nobody wants safety at all cost. That would be not flying at all, staying home and wrapping yourself in bubble wrap. That’s not the goal.

The truth here is that Boeing and others are pushing hard into computers flyings airplanes and there is something up with the Max, the number and nature of the ASRS reports reflect that. They have not achieved the standard of never getting it wrong, which means the airplanes should not fly for a while until the system is well understood.
 
bflynn said:
...there is something up with the Max, the number and nature of the ASRS reports reflect that.
Click to expand...

I thought two of the ASRS reports were from the same flight. One from the pilot, one from the copilot. Also, I don't think you can make a conclusion about the 737 Max unless you do a comparison of the number and nature of ASRS reports involving the 737 Max versus similar types. I wouldn't be surprised if similar ASRS reports are filed every day by pilots flying a wide variety of airline hardware.
 
I had not realized it was legal in so many. Genetically first cousins are on the edge of more related than the average other person. Arizona has an interesting law - you can marry your first cousin but only if 65 or older or one party infertile.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top