Boeing 737s Grounded

Read this on Avweb, Question- is it not unheard of to have logged 8000 hours at the rip old age of 29?

According to reports, the captain, Yared Getachew, was 29 years old with 8000 hours, but the first officer had just 200 hours. At this stage, it is not clear if this is total time or time in type.
 
1RTK1 said:
is it not unheard of to have logged 8000
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What, you didn't fly 12 hrs a week since you were 16 years old..?

Seems possible, though not probable

I still have a hard time blaming Boeing on this.. two operators, one with a downright garbage safety record, and the other with a tiny MAX fleet from a third world country, have wrecked the same type of plane. The fact that everyone is banning the plane is just political tom foolery

We're just a few sandwiches short of a picnic here
 
I have a hard time believing the rest of the developed world is making the decision foolishly while we are the wise ones sitting on our hands waiting to find out, hoping and trusty our gut...

It could turn out to be nothing...But two similar crashes, the rest of the world many with similiar gov't structures to ours saying we may want to know there isn't an issue here before we have a third...

If you were at a gate right now to put your family on a plane and had a choice at the gate of putting them on a 737-700 or a 737 8max, which one would you put your wife and kids on before we find out about these two accidents and the similarities? Are you confident enough that its nothing to choose the 8max over the tried and true model? I wouldn't be.

Would we be so confident that "It just cannot, no way, not possibly the planes fault" if it were an Airbus? an Embraer? a Sukhoi?

We all on here criticize the FAA and its often foolish ways, why now when the rest of the worlds Aviation agencies are saying "pause let's be cautious" are we defending the FAA's wisdom?

I think the reason the US has not followed suite and/or didn't lead this precautionary route boils down to one word, and it is the P word we are not supposed to discuss on here...
 
Ryanb said:
They are.

@kayoh190
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You rang? :)

I have just over 200 hours in the MAX-8, which is probably a decent amount given how few MAXs make up the overall 737 fleet for US carriers percentage-wise. There's a turn (an out and back day trip) I fly several times per month to keep the number of nights away from home lower, and my carrier puts a MAX on that route the majority of the time. So I end up flying it a half dozen segments or so per month.

But has been noted many times since the original Lion Air crash, the procedure to fight a stab runaway in the MAX is no different than that of any other 737, and my roughly 1700 hours in type is green by airline standards and essentially chump change compared to a couple of the 737 veterans on PoA. And there are number of others that might not have direct 737 experience, but have been veterans of the industry for a long long time. So my instinct is to lay low in these threads, partly because I still have no idea what brought down the Ethiopian Air MAX-8, and mainly because my time in the MAX-8 doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

If someone has something specific to ask me about the aircraft and my time flying it, I'd be more than happy to answer, but my overall attitude about the entire situation falls pretty in line with @Sluggo63 's excellent post here: Ethiopian Airlines Crash; Another 737 Max
 
Huckster79 said:
I have a hard time believing the rest of the developed world is making the decision foolishly while we are the wise ones sitting on our hands waiting to find out, hoping and trusty our gut...

It could turn out to be nothing...But two similar crashes, the rest of the world many with similiar gov't structures to ours saying we may want to know there isn't an issue here before we have a third...

If you were at a gate right now to put your family on a plane and had a choice at the gate of putting them on a 737-700 or a 737 8max, which one would you put your wife and kids on before we find out about these two accidents and the similarities? Are you confident enough that its nothing to choose the 8max over the tried and true model? I wouldn't be.

Would we be so confident that "It just cannot, no way, not possibly the planes fault" if it were an Airbus? an Embraer? a Sukhoi?

We all on here criticize the FAA and its often foolish ways, why now when the rest of the worlds Aviation agencies are saying "pause let's be cautious" are we defending the FAA's wisdom?

I think the reason the US has not followed suite and/or didn't lead this precautionary route boils down to one word, and it is the P word we are not supposed to discuss on here...
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I agree whole heartedly (yeah I know it doesn't matter, but I do) couple of articles on Fox news already where people are changing flights in SW and not willing to travel in Max. makes lot of sense why someone would not put their family on that plane until we know what the heck is going on. easy to say lets it keep flying until you have skin in the game literally
 
Haven't read the prior posts, but this reminds me of the situation with the Lockheed Electra in the 1960s. Elwood Quesada, FAA's 1st Administrator and a former Lockheed executive, wouldn't ground them. He ordered a speed restriction even though nobody could yet figure out why the wings were falling off. Turned out to be "whirl mode", of course, and looking back I wonder if it was only by the grace of God we lost no others.

I'd ground the Maxes. The Citationjets, too, since they seem to keep nose-diving into the ground after takeoff also. I'm pretty gutless I guess. :(
 
Trump just ordered the MAX fleet to be grounded in the US and Boeing stock falls 2%.
 
Repeat after me:
"out of an abundance of caution"
"out of an abundance of caution"
"out of an abundance of caution"
"out of.... "

The folks ordering the grounding haven't even considered what effect the different options ordered on the plane might have on pilot awareness. WN started having a third AoA sensor installed in December. Some airlines bought the planes with annunciators that notified of an AoA disagree condition.
 
Huckster79 said:
I have a hard time believing the rest of the developed world is making the decision foolishly
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But based on what are they making their decisions on? It seems it's a political domino effect and CYA of not wanting to be the one nation who didn't ground it and has the next crash. Is there something specific that these countries know that we don't? There's an appeal to authority here that "the government must know what they doing" but ultimately these decisions are made by politicians who are looking to ease any potential blow back and mitigate the fall out should another crash happen.. plus.. the US is not in the most favorable light internationally right now, Boeing has picked a few fights with Airbus, Bombardier, etc., so...? Humans are generally emotionally weak people who cave to societal pressures with little (or no?) basis on fact

Huckster79 said:
If you were at a gate right now to put your family on a plane and had a choice at the gate of putting them on a 737-700 or a 737 8max, which one would you put your wife and kids on
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If I'm in the US, then I'll pick whichever plane isn't delayed and is scheduled to get me home faster. I trust US (and European, Australian, and Canadian) pilots know how to handle in flight anomalies.. and can actually still hand fly a plane out of trim.. or disable an errant system if it's causing odd behaviors. If I'm in Ethiopia.. guess what, I'm not flying commercially on a local carrier.

So many people say "wait for the facts" .. if we had a few Bonanza crashes due to a trim issue with some new Garmin upgrade nobody on here would be supporting the decision to ground the fleet.. there'd be critiques of the magenta line children (a few gratuitous Cirrus punches), etc., but there wouldn't be a call to ground. So where is that drive now?

All we know (currently) is that two third world airlines, with small fleets, one of which has an atrocious safety record, crashed the same type of plane under somewhat similar circumstances. These planes aren't fly by wire.. so if they're having trouble maintaining pitch there are only so many things that can cause that..

If I trust the pilots then I'll get on any V Tail Bonanza, MD11, 737 MAX.. etc.
 
kayoh190 said:
You rang? :)
If someone has something specific to ask me about the aircraft and my time flying it, I'd be more than happy to answer, but my overall attitude about the entire situation falls pretty in line with @Sluggo63 's excellent post here: Ethiopian Airlines Crash; Another 737 Max
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Largest airplane I am familiar enough to want to fly as PIC is a Cessna 421, so this is probably a stupid question - but if all else fails can you turn the master switch off killing all the electronic controls and manually fly a 737? Pilots already alerted the tower they had problems and were coming back. No big deal if the radios are off unless they are IFR?
 
Tantalum said:
I noticed that too... so the purpose of the article was just for clickbait it seems
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The most recent info is that examination of radar track information revealed similarities to the Lion Air crash, sufficient to implicate the MCAS in this accident. All US planes are now temporarily grounded pending further review.
 
I am pleased to hear of the Trump Administrations decision today. I am by no means a supporter but a fair minded person to where I will compliment those I generally disagree with when I do agree. I cannot lie I’m shocked, but pleased.
 
Ryanb said:
Trump just ordered the MAX fleet to be grounded in the US and Boeing stock falls 2%.
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wsuffa said:
Repeat after me:
"out of an abundance of caution"
"out of an abundance of caution"
"out of an abundance of caution"
"out of.... "
Click to expand...

Tantalum said:
But based on what are they making their decisions on?
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Piperonca said:
https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html
Trump has spoken
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zbrown5 said:
Executive order. Where is the FAA in all this?
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I think it was the FAA who wanted the grounding and had the President put out the executive order.

From the FAA’s website:

The FAA is ordering the temporary grounding of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft (PDF)operated by U.S. airlines or in U.S. territory. The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today. This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision.

The grounding will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft’s flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders. An FAA team is in Ethiopia assisting the NTSB as parties to the investigation of the Flight 302 accident. The agency will continue to investigate.

Edit: It seems like Boeing was on board also.
“Boeing has determined — out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety — to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft,”
 
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How many other POTUS's have hired chief pilots or captains for jet aircraft and helicopters? I mean, actually interviewed them, flown with them, had meetings and lengthy operational conversations with them? How many others have acquired and outfitted aircraft with equipment, including technology options, and participated in the financial decision making involved. Or bought an airline? None, I think is the answer. Anybody else doing this would tempt me to think "politics" drove the decision.
 
There is a lot of speculation and fear driving both the conversation and decision making on this issue. But there is very little actual knowledge on the part of most people doing the talking and even making the decisions.

I'd still fly on them.
 
SkyDog58 said:
There is a lot of speculation and fear driving both the conversation and decision making on this issue. But there is very little actual knowledge on the part of most people doing the talking and even making the decisions.

I'd still fly on them.
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No you won’t, they are grounded
 
I mean, would it kill people to have even a shred of factual information in their media reporting as opposed to fear mongering nonsense?

There really is no crustable media or news outlet at this point, they're all the equivalent of the high school gossip crowd

I watched an old interview / debate recently with Malcolm X and some white dude and they were clearly not an agreement, however the level of decorum, courtesy, and proactive discussion was amazing.. that stuff is gone today. Just scream and slander your opponents into submission
 
Boeing has grounded the whole fleet.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releases-statements?item=130404

March 13, 2019 – Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. However, after consultation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined -- out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety -- to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft.
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I realize the information I have is limited, but from what I do know, these crashes could have been avoided by simply....disengaging the autopilot!

Seems a lot like that Asian airline that crashed at SFO when they missed the runway short on a CAVU day because the ILS was out....
 
Well, I'm not a pilot, but I was a legacy Hornet mechanic for 20+ years in the Corps. And in all that time I never encountered a situation where software caused the airframe to depart normal flight. 90% of the time it was a mechanical issue that the flight control computers tried to compensate for. The other 10% of the time it was the pilot trying to fly the airframe outside of the box.

I don't know what is going on with these 737s, but I do know manufacturers try to take the easy way out before they consider anything else. A software patch seems like an easy way out to me. What they don't want to do is admit there is something fundamentally wrong with the airframe.
 
My job has me spending significant time in the back of 737’s these days. I have a lot of faith in you guys who are doing the driving and I wouldn’t have refused to fly with you in a Max 8; but I have to confess that as a guy with absolutely no control over the outcome of an incident, I’m looking forward to a logical explanation of what’s been happening.
 
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