Blindly Trusting ATC

I never said on the approach.

Here's the problem with, well, everyone. You read something, then add something that wasn't actually stated, and then base your argument off of that.

Worse yet, it's a pre-solo student, someone new to aviation, and everyone is jumping down this persons throat on how can they be an expert, they must have some background, and nitpicking every ****ing thing about someone brand new to the field.

But hey if it makes you feel better about yourself, have at it. But it makes you look pathetic.
 
In addition, if you weren't there you probably don't have the entire picture.

Pilots and CFIs often have different techniques for doing the same thing. Just because you think yours is correct doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. Not to mention that techniques vary between airplanes.
 
*shakes head*

Look, I'm not biting anymore. Just going to say that I had a very lovely morning flying today! The skies were clear. The winds were calm. And I was happy as a little bird learning how to leave the nest. :) I'm at about 99% confidence that I can land a plane safely (although maybe not always gracefully). Oh, I did not fire my CFI.

There are lots of internet experts out there and I get that everyone thinks their way is the best way. But I will continue basing my in-flight decisions on my CFI's expertise and guidance. That's why I'm paying him the big bucks, not you guys. Not saying I won't listen to your advice or consider your suggestions (I actually ran a couple of them past him today), but, at the end of the day, it's my CFI I trust. After all, he's managed to keep the mother of my kids (ME!) alive for the last 12 or so flight hours.

Besides, as he told me today, if there's ever a point when I don't feel like he's a good fit for me or if I ever have doubts about his abilities, I can always just change instructors. No feelings hurt, just business. But, as of right now, I see absolutely no reason to do that. I still stand by my initial statement of, "he's awesome."

Also, I learned today that ATC was training a new person that day. Although it was the trainer who made the call, not the trainee... but maybe explains why things became a bit chaotic.

Great suggestion by someone to listen to the ATC feed from that day. I will definitely do that later tonight!

Ed - thanks :)
 
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EdFred said:
I never said on the approach.

Here's the problem with, well, everyone. You read something, then add something that wasn't actually stated, and then base your argument off of that.

Worse yet, it's a pre-solo student, someone new to aviation, and everyone is jumping down this persons throat on how can they be an expert, they must have some background, and nitpicking every ****ing thing about someone brand new to the field.

But hey if it makes you feel better about yourself, have at it. But it makes you look pathetic.
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Oh PALEESE....You must be talking about me. But no one, including me is jumping down the OPs throat.

Furthermore, unless you recently decided to turn a new leaf, you'd be all over this if you didn't decide to leg-hump instead.
 
To the OP, understand, on POA we get plenty of stories about ATC did this or that when in all actuality, ATC was doing exactly what they're suppose to do. We get these claims because they don't understand ATC procedures and even if they did read the controller's manual, each facility operates differently depending on type facility and facility memos / waivers in place.

Don't know how many times I've heard "ATC can't clear you to land while another aircraft is on the runway" or "ATC can't clear you for take off while another aircraft is on the runway." Both false but are popular misconceptions we get on this forum. Read "Approach Controller's" last sentence on his post. A lot of times the controller is operating completely legal but yet a pilot thinks they did something wrong.

So, that's why we try and pull as much detail from your story instead of just assuming ATC at your field is jacked up. I don't even see your CFI as part of the equation. This is a simple matter of appropriate separation that has nothing to do with his technique of instruction. I'm sure he's good at what he does. Good luck with your training.
 
Velocity173 said:
To the OP, understand, on POA we get plenty of stories about ATC did this or that when in all actuality, ATC was doing exactly what they're suppose to do. We get these claims because they don't understand ATC procedures and even if they did read the controller's manual, each facility operates differently depending on type facility and facility memos / waivers in place.

Don't know how many times I've heard "ATC can't clear you to land while another aircraft is on the runway" or "ATC can't clear you for take off while another aircraft is on the runway." Both false but are popular misconceptions we get on this forum. Read "Approach Controller's" last sentence on his post. A lot of times the controller is operating completely legal but yet a pilot thinks they did something wrong.

So, that's why we try and pull as much detail from your story instead of just assuming ATC at your field is jacked up. I don't even see your CFI as part of the equation. This is a simple matter of appropriate separation that has nothing to do with his technique of instruction. I'm sure he's good at what he does. Good luck with your training.
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To add, a lot of times the pilot doesn't correctly remember the string of communication that went on. I've done it myself, been in a situation and I thought I said one thing or that ATC said one thing, but going back and listening to the recording, I was completely wrong. Sometimes you don't even hear things in the heat of the moment. That's why you'll sometimes get a mention of Live ATC recordings. Listening to them may give a better picture of what happened.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Oh PALEESE....You must be talking about me. But no one, including me is jumping down the OPs throat.

Furthermore, unless you recently decided to turn a new leaf, you'd be all over this if you didn't decide to leg-hump instead.
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When have tore into a pre-solo student and nitpicked everything they said on here?

I certainly don't recall doing so. I will give people (especially CFI's) who should know better **** from sunrise till sundown, but not a student that hasn't reached a particular part in their training where they should know better.
 
EdFred said:
When have tore into a pre-solo student and nitpicked everything they said on here?

I certainly don't recall doing so. I will give people (especially CFI's) who should know better **** from sunrise till sundown, but not a student that hasn't reached a particular part in their training where they should know better.
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No one tore into the student. Go back and read the thread and you will see that with exception of the "fire the CFI posters" the banter was amongst the other posters dissecting the situation (what and why they'd do whatever in the same situation) because the OP didn't provide sufficient detail, as you and Everskyward so adroitly stated.

I'd advance that questioning the competency of the CFI is where the thread got derailed. We should know by now that the student is emotionally tied to the CFI and rightly so, doesn't yet have the storehouse of knowledge of comparison to distinguish if the CFI is deserving of firing. Bad on us for doing THAT.

I hope though, that the learning point for the OP, is not that PoA is a bunch of blowhards, but PoA participation WILL accelerate understanding of aviation, because YES there are multiple ways of making the airplane do what you want it to do, but also employing a certain control without any understanding doesn't engender much toward becoming PILOT in COMMAND, it makes one SOLE MANIPULATOR of the controls and there is a difference (we all know this). So, in summary: ask the CFI more detailed "why" questions, that's the greatest benefit of post-flight briefing, internalize it, research it for yourself and then you're equipped to argue the merits/ demerits of each technique on a situation by situation basis.
 
Jaybird180 said:
We should know by now that the student is emotionally tied to the CFI and rightly so, doesn't yet have the storehouse of knowledge of comparison to distinguish if the CFI is deserving of firing.
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In fairness, I did fire my first two CFIs. This guy is my third. The first guy did something I thought was dangerous and irresponsible... resulted in a shattered windshield. The second guy wouldn't let go of the controls and our personalities did not mesh. So, I don't have qualms about switching up. But, yes, I am emotionally tied to this one because his style suits my style, I have a lot of confidence in his ability, I trust him and his knowledge, and we get along very well. If something in that ever changes, I would consider another instructor yet again.

ask the CFI more detailed "why" questions
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Good advice. One thing I like about this guy is that when he tells me to do something (or not to do something), he immediately follows up with his reasoning. It helps a lot.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
This is a great post. Thanks so much for the tips!
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I'm sure based on your messages your CFI will have no trouble getting you ready to solo and PPL ... your well motivated.

NoBShere said:
Hey Cajun, as a new pilot, that flys out of a Class D, I have learned something from your post. Thanks for sharing and based upon your description, I bet you are better off on aviation knowledge than I was at pre-solo. Best of luck to you.

PS: does New Orleans still have a football team :)
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See Cajun you helped someone ... but, there always is that LAST little jab around here:lol:

rolivi said:
What red and white lights are you talking about? Certainly a pre-solo student isn't watching a VASI or a PAPI.
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Why not? How else are they going to learn and evaluate if they are on glide path?

Cajun_Flyer said:
*shakes head*

There are lots of internet experts out there and I get that everyone thinks their way is the best way. But I will continue basing my in-flight decisions on my CFI's expertise and guidance. :)
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Perfect ... you can always ask your CFI during pre-flight or debrief regarding some of the "other" methods described here if you were not shown by your CFI.

Also some advice here gives the opportunity for "fun" stuff. On the required Class C take-off and landings I had already worked it out with the CFI to request light gun signals. Both he and ATC thanked me after as ATC indicated they don't get to practice using them often. Returning to my field that opened up an opportunity with the CFI whereupon we flew the entire pattern without the yolk using "trim and doors only" ... I of course used the yolk to flare. Have fun ....
 
Danhagan- when you were using the yolk to fly, did you save the whites and shells?:D:D
 
I had an interesting experience about 30 years ago when I first started flying at a controlled airport.
Long story short I was turning base cleared to land while a straight in was also cleared to land. Back then neither myself or instructor had headsets, maybe we didn't hear or maybe we just were not paying attention, well apparently we were not.
My instructor was looking elsewhere and I was looking out over my left shoulder, About the time I looked up my instructor looked up too. We both reached for the throttle and he banked the plane very hard. The only remarks that were made were by my instructor sarcastically thanking the tower..........All they said was sorry, nothing more was mentioned, but it was a good lesson for me. It was close to say the least..........
 
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As a controller I'd like to add that pilots (and I am one as well) need to pay attention to the instructions given, not only to them but to the other aircraft in the pattern as well. I know that every pilot on this board is a professional and listens intently to all instructions given.....BUT....I've flown with a lot of pilots who ignore all the other calls and just listen for their own call sign. Controllers appreciate pilots who try to help them out ie slow down on final when they know they are following someone else or make a short approach so the straight in traffic will not have to go around; maybe offer to extend a downwind leg to make the pattern work. Pilots appreciate controllers who try to help them out as well.

In my almost 30 years of controlling air traffic both radar and tower but mostly tower, I've found that what works best is that pilots and controllers will behave more favorably the less information you keep from them; for example, it has been mentioned that if a student told the controller that they were a student pilot, then the controllers behavior changes.
 
Timbeck2, I hope you didn't take my comments as trying to degrade ATC in any manor. In my situation 30+ years ago it was something that happened, myself the instructor and tower could all have done a better job. Nothing bad came out of it and I look at it as no harm no foul. Today I'm sure many would have looked at it differently, but all involved learned from it, nothing bad came out of it, I still feel no harm no foul.
 
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Of course not Ralph. Some of the kids I'm training today degrade the profession enough. I call them the Nintendo generation. They think if they kill someone its no big deal, just hit the reset button and try again. :rolleyes2:
 
1RTK1 said:
I had an interesting experience about 30 years ago when I first started flying at a controlled airport.
Long story short I was turning base cleared to land while a straight in was also cleared to land. Back then neither myself or instructor had headsets, maybe we didn't hear or maybe we just were not paying attention, well apparently we were not.
My instructor was looking elsewhere and I was looking out over my left shoulder, About the time I looked up my instructor looked up too. We both reached for the throttle and he banked the plane very hard. The only remarks that were made were by my instructor sarcastically thanking the tower..........All they said was sorry, nothing more was mentioned, but it was a good lesson for me. It was close to say the least..........
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So were you told that you were cleared to land, #2 behind the aircraft on final or just cleared to land? Did you perhaps turn base too early once you heard that you were cleared to land?
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
In fairness, I did fire my first two CFIs. This guy is my third. The first guy did something I thought was dangerous and irresponsible... resulted in a shattered windshield. The second guy wouldn't let go of the controls and our personalities did not mesh. So, I don't have qualms about switching up. But, yes, I am emotionally tied to this one because his style suits my style, I have a lot of confidence in his ability, I trust him and his knowledge, and we get along very well. If something in that ever changes, I would consider another instructor yet again.

Good advice. One thing I like about this guy is that when he tells me to do something (or not to do something), he immediately follows up with his reasoning. It helps a lot.
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I am curious to know what dangerous and irresponsible act the first CFI did that resulted in the shattered windshield. I am seriously intrigued by this.

I also would like to know how far into your training with the second instructor did he keep his hands on the controls and how firmly they were on the controls. Were you expecting him to sit there with his hands on his lap while a student pilot who was (I'm assuming) brand new to him just did whatever she wanted to do? Please elaborate.

I agree that finding a CFI that you mesh with is very important. I have had a couple in the past that were not a good fit and a couple others that were a great fit for me so I understand your desire to find a good fit for yourself and then stick with him. That is very natural as well as important. However I do question the judgments you seem to pass on the individuals as if the problem was all theirs. A good fit between instructor and student is a two way street and it is just as important for you to find a way to work with them as it is for them to find a way to work with you. A bit of personal introspection may be in order.

Either way, good luck with your continued training.
 
SkyDog58 said:
So were you told that you were cleared to land, #2 behind the aircraft on final or just cleared to land? Did you perhaps turn base too early once you heard that you were cleared to land?
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All I remember was clear to land when we were on downwind a little past mid field. If I recall we were doing T&G's that day. The tower knew they made the mistake by the apology they gave. It was a good lesson that I have not forgotten in over 30 years, and I am just getting back into flying, not because of that, time, life, business, etc., all got in the way...
 
1RTK1 said:
All I remember was clear to land when we were on downwind a little past mid field. If I recall we were doing T&G's that day. The tower knew they made the mistake by the apology they gave. It was a good lesson that I have not forgotten in over 30 years, and I am just getting back into flying, not because of that, time, life, business, etc., all got in the way...
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Understood and a warm welcome back into flying. My story is similar to yours. I took a 28 year hiatus between my first several lessons until I restarted about 7 years ago due to life getting in the way and a bit of laziness I must admit. Since restarting I got my ASEL, AMEL & ASES ratings and am really enjoying it. I'm glad that you decided to give it another go as well. Good luck!
 
SkyDog58 said:
I am curious to know what dangerous and irresponsible act the first CFI did that resulted in the shattered windshield. I am seriously intrigued by this.

I also would like to know how far into your training with the second instructor did he keep his hands on the controls and how firmly they were on the controls. Were you expecting him to sit there with his hands on his lap while a student pilot who was (I'm assuming) brand new to him just did whatever she wanted to do? Please elaborate.

I agree that finding a CFI that you mesh with is very important. I have had a couple in the past that were not a good fit and a couple others that were a great fit for me so I understand your desire to find a good fit for yourself and then stick with him. That is very natural as well as important. However I do question the judgments you seem to pass on the individuals as if the problem was all theirs. A good fit between instructor and student is a two way street and it is just as important for you to find a way to work with them as it is for them to find a way to work with you. A bit of personal introspection may be in order.

Either way, good luck with your continued training.
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Well, that was pretty heavily condescending. Nothing like having some random internet person telling I need to be more introspective. I'm 35 years old. I know who I am, I know what I like and I know what works for me. That's all there is to say about that. And I certainly will not post what the first CFI did publicly for all to read. Nothing is private on the internet and I have no intentions of getting him in trouble. He was a good man.

Good luck to you in your endeavors. And safe flying!
 
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Timbeck2 said:
As a controller I'd like to add that pilots (and I am one as well) need to pay attention to the instructions given, not only to them but to the other aircraft in the pattern as well.
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Thank you for your insight as a controller, Timbeck2. And I completely agree. That was definitely a big lesson for me. I'm so focused on the calls made directly to me, that I have absolutely been guilty of glossing over the ones made to the other pilots. Which is terrible. I'm going to much more aware of those calls going forward.

I actually listened to the ATC feed last night from that morning. The situation was really a big mess, probably because the ATC person was involved in training that day (which I learned later). It was obvious that they had just misplaced timing on the spacing of planes. The guy behind me ended up landed right on the heels of the jet. So, my plane was basically just the odd duck out, but everyone came out OK and that's what matters.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Thank you for your insight as a controller, Timbeck2. And I completely agree. That was definitely a big lesson for me. I'm so focused on the calls made directly to me, that I have absolutely been guilty of glossing over the ones made to the other pilots. Which is terrible. I'm going to much more aware of those calls going forward.

I actually listened to the ATC feed last night from that morning. The situation was really a big mess, probably because the ATC person was involved in training that day (which I learned later). It was obvious that they had just misplaced timing on the spacing of planes. The guy behind me ended up landed right on the heels of the jet. So, my plane was basically just the odd duck out, but everyone came out OK and that's what matters.
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That's exactly right. And nobody is filling out reports or calling insurers to boot. It gave us 6 pages and counting to kick around so there's that...all and all good times!
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Well, that was pretty heavily condescending. Nothing like having some random internet person telling I need to be more introspective. I'm 35 years old. I know who I am, I know what I like and I know what works for me. That's all there is to say about that. And I certainly will not post what the first CFI did publicly for all to read. Nothing is private on the internet and I have no intentions of getting him in trouble. He was a good man.

Good luck to you in your endeavors. And safe flying!
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And you'll find out that nothing is private in aviation either. It's quite possible that it was a reportable incident and if so, it's in the public domain anyway. There's nothing you can say here (unless the incident was somehow covered up) that could land anyone in more trouble than what they already are. Someone had to pay for that windshield. So, what's done is truly done. No harm in sharing.
 
Good grief.....Thank you Cajun_Flyer for posting your experience so we could all learn from it. Please don't be discouraged from posting again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Well, that was pretty heavily condescending. Nothing like having some random internet person telling I need to be more introspective. I'm 35 years old. I know who I am, I know what I like and I know what works for me. That's all there is to say about that. And I certainly will not post what the first CFI did publicly for all to read. Nothing is private on the internet and I have no intentions of getting him in trouble. He was a good man.

Good luck to you in your endeavors. And safe flying!
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Well, it certainly is noble of you to want to protect a pilot who is so dangerous and irresponsible that you no longer wanted to fly with him. But I guess your refusing to flying with him is sufficient as it at least keeps you safe. :rolleyes2:
 
I always check what I can for myself also.. I was at KNEW and was given clearance to cross a runway while taxiing but as I about to cross they gave another aircraft. larger corporate Turbo Prop clearance to taxi down the runway that I was about to cross.. I gladly waited for him to go by.. I then asked if it was ok to cross the runway now.. His reply sounded like I was an idiot and wasn't listening to him.. So nope.. they are human too.. they have bad days too.. I like my life to much to trust anyone with it fully..
 
Jaybird180 said:
Danhagan- when you were using the yolk to fly, did you save the whites and shells?:D:D
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Har! I threw out the egg shells:lol:

I never type on Ipad (mine is the original dinosaur one at home) ... as I type it often changes things and I missed that one:mad2:
 
danhagan said:
Har! I threw out the egg shells:lol:

I never type on Ipad (mine is the original dinosaur one at home) ... as I type it often changes things and I missed that one:mad2:
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don't feel so bad. I call it auto-incorrect.
 
I mostly just lurk but this thread has re-enforced something I have noticed. A long time ago in a galaxy far away I was a cop. It appears to me that pilots are a LOT like cops, at least the ones I knew (and that includes me) they are, in the most part certain that their way is the only way and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. (or in some cases stupid) This board is a lot like a briefing room at the station. :rofl:
 
Wow. Four pages to say...

You screw up, you might die.

Controller screws up, you might die.

Think accordingly.
 
I don't blindly trust many people about anything, much less a total stranger when it can kill me.
 
It happens both ways. Sometimes when we have aircraft in the pattern and we tell X that they are inside of Y on 7 mile final, it happens quite often that X wants to have Y in sight before they turn base. By the time X sees Y they are too close to turn inside which can screw up a pattern real quick and suddenly your pattern grows to 5 miles. As a controller it is frustrating but as a pilot I can see why I feel the need to see someone I'm turning in front of.
 
rampie said:
Instead lay the pink cushions on my brown couch. You not die.
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Here you go.

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