Blindly Trusting ATC

[fiveoboy01]

The problem is that the FARs are clear that we must obey ATC.

The FARs are very clear that the pilot is the one(and only one) responsible for the safety of flight and thus gives the pilot the authority to disregard ATC instructions if there is imminent danger.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Cajun, just anticipate and you'll be fine. Your going to experience this quite often, might as well get used to it now and not get mad.

1. Pilots will be on wrong frequency - use your eyes
2. A LOT of pilots don't clear both runway directions and finals before entering the runway environment
3. Some pilots do intersection departures in ANY direction they see fit with radios off or non-existent
4. Some fields have a "hump" and you may not even be able to see the other departure area, be alert.
5. Animals like to cross the runway at the TDZ during your flare
6. Have your CFI show you a go around after touchdown

I've had at least 5 go arounds this year at my own field and twice pilots flying the downwind opposite direction even though there were 4 of us in the pattern (pattern is north of the runway RP28 and LP10). Welcome to POA, just your participation here will make the PPL oral easier.

This is a great post. Thanks so much for the tips!

 

[SkyDog58]

If I have read the comments in this thread correctly, the OP is pre-solo but has caught several ATC mistakes and has corrected her CFI at least a few times. That is pretty awesome to be that advanced in knowledge at that point in one's training.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

If I have read the comments in this thread correctly, the OP is pre-solo but has caught several ATC mistakes and has corrected her CFI at least a few times. That is pretty awesome to be that advanced in knowledge at that point in one's training.

As much as I'd like to agree, I wouldn't go patting me on the back for advanced knowledge. My knowledge is still quite limited. The motto of my day job is, "plan for the worst, hope for the best." So with every decision I'm faced with or direction I'm giving (during flying or otherwise), my brain immediately starts running through potential worst case scenarios and I start scanning the situation for reasons to act otherwise. That, combined with my not-so-great trait of being both a pessimist and a person with serious trust issues... instead of just rolling with things, I overanalyze and look for faults. Not really something to commend, but maybe it will keep me alive! I guess my strengths are my weaknesses, and vice versa.

 

[Captain]

If I have read the comments in this thread correctly, the OP is pre-solo but has caught several ATC mistakes and has corrected her CFI at least a few times. That is pretty awesome to be that advanced in knowledge at that point in one's training.

Meh, she's a type A personality just like most everyone else here. My guess is she'll do just fine and end up looking back at this phase of her training with a smile and a groan.

...or she might kill herself.

 

[SkyDog58]

I was coming in to land, as I had been cleared to do by ATC. A Cessna just took off, a Challenger was waiting his turn (so I thought) and I was cleared for another touch & go. Just as I was getting really close to the numbers and about to add my last notch of flaps, the jet suddenly pulled out onto the runway in front of me. My CFI cursed and we did a quick go-around. Apparently, as we were coming in to land and my instructor was giving me direction on best practices, they cleared the other plane for takeoff!

I do have questions about the bold parts in the excerpt from the OP.

Adding flaps when getting really close to the numbers? How far from the end of the runway were you? How high? Were you crossing the threshold way too high and maybe the tower cleared the jet to line up and wait knowing there would be no conflict?

Was your instructor giving you a lecture on best practices while you were on short final? At this phase in the flight, he should just be calling out minor corrections such as power adjustments, flight control inputs, etc. Neither he nor you should be distracted by discussions on any other topics on short final.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

I do have questions about the bold parts in the excerpt from the OP.

Adding flaps when getting really close to the numbers? How far from the end of the runway were you? How high? Were you crossing the threshold way too high and maybe the tower cleared the jet to line up and wait knowing there would be no conflict?

Was your instructor giving you a lecture on best practices while you were on short final? At this phase in the flight, he should just be calling out minor corrections such as power adjustments, flight control inputs, etc. Neither he nor you should be distracted by discussions on any other topics on short final.

Void & Sky Dog... I already addressed all of your questions throughout the thread, but let me attempt to recap.

I was <500 ft and coming in a little fast. That he was talking me through "best practices" was obviously the wrong way of stating the situation. In order to reduce speed, I reached to make an adjustment on the throttle and he advised using flaps before power. That was pretty much it. Shortly thereafter, his demeanor changed. I assumed it was because of what I was doing, but then I saw the jet taxing out. My CFI heard the call before the jet started moving. The jet started moving immediately when the call was made and radioed back his clearance as he taxied out.

So, basically, I reacted to seeing the jet moving and he reacted to hearing the clearance call. He then talked me through a go-around. We were well into the go-around before I saw the jet even start moving down the runway, so, yeah... trust me, there would have absolutely been a conflict had I continued on my path.

Again, it wasn't the first ATC issue that day, just the last and largest in the line. The only thing I fault the jet for is not looking for incoming traffic before moving out. I don't fault my CFI for anything, as he advised me to go-around, talked me safely through the procedure and made the event a helpful learning experience.

Not really much else to clarify on this. Thank you for your input.

Meh, she's a type A personality just like most everyone else here. My guess is she'll do just fine and end up looking back at this phase of her training with a smile and a groan.

...or she might kill herself.

Captain - heh. Let's hope it's the smile & groan!

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

So we're talking about a good 10-20 seconds at least from when the tower starts to tell the jet they are cleared for takeoff to when they are lined up and starting to roll.

Maybe this isn't typical for all airports, but mine is a fairly busy towered one. When given the clearance for takeoff, you are supposed immediately begin moving out and make the call back to tower as you are taxing. You aren't supposed to pause once you are on the runway either, just go. Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't heed that last part (like this particular jet). 10-20 seconds out from the clearance call and he should have been already moving down the runway. Even if he had immediately moved, though, it still would have created a hazardous landing situation for me.

 

[jordane93]

Maybe this isn't typical for all airports, but mine is a fairly busy towered one. When given the clearance for takeoff, you are supposed immediately begin moving out and make the call back to tower as you are taxing. You aren't supposed to pause once you are on the runway either, just go. Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't heed that last part (like this particular jet). 10-20 seconds out from the clearance call and he should have been already moving down the runway. Even if he had immediately moved, though, it still would have created a close call and hazardous landing situation for me.

If your airport is that busy then it shouldn't really come as a surprise to your CFI if you get a landing clearance (or a late landing clearance) while another plane is in position and holding. The airport I fly out of is a busy Class D underneath the NY Class B and we regularly get, "line up and wait runway XX, next arrival is a (insert type of plane) on a 1 mile final, be ready." If every time I saw a plane on the runway while on final and I go around, I'd never get to land because it's a regular occurrence.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

it shouldn't really come as a surprise to your CFI if you get a landing clearance (or a late landing clearance) while another plane is in position and holding.

Wrong order of operation in your statement for this situation. I had been given landing clearance several minutes prior and the jet was given takeoff clearance after that. What you stated above happens all the time. I'm usually at a safe distance, they take off, I land... no worries. In fact, almost every landing I do, someone else is taking off from the runway ahead as I'm coming in. That isn't what happened here, though. I was less than 500 ft from the runway when they cleared him for a takeoff and he taxied out. Not sure how I can make this any more clear for you guys, so I think instead of trying anymore, I'm just going to go over that way --->
and have some lunch

Thanks again for all the feedback!

 

[jordane93]

Wrong order of operation in your statement for this situation. I had been given landing clearance several minutes prior and the jet was given takeoff clearance after that. What you stated above happens all the time. I'm usually at a safe distance, they take off, I land... no worries. In fact, almost every landing I do, someone else is taking off from the runway ahead as I'm coming in. That isn't what happened here, though. I was less than 500 ft from the runway when they cleared him for a takeoff and he taxied out. Not sure how I can make this any more clear for you guys, so I think instead of trying anymore, I'm just going to go over that way --->
and have some lunch

Thanks again for all the feedback!

What are you having for lunch? And will there be enough separation or will you have to go around?

 

[fiveoboy01]

The order of it doesn't matter, as Jordan said lots of times there will be an aircraft on the runway somewhere with another one on final or short final.

In this particular case, the CFI wasn't happy with the separation so there was a go-around. Tower might have underestimated the speed or the distance of the aircraft on final. Or(unlikely) forgot about it. These things happen and that's why we get trained on what to do when they do happen. Not a particularly big deal, and certainly not enough reason to file any sort of report, IMO.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

What are you having for lunch? And will there be enough separation or will you have to go around?

Well, we had a birthday cake for a coworker at 11:30, then a going away cake for another co-worker at 12:30. I squeezed my lunch in around 12:25. So, no, based on current snugness of pants, I would say there was not enough separation! I'd file a complaint with my supervisor, but I don't want to move.

 

[Jaybird180]

Void & Sky Dog... I already addressed all of your questions throughout the thread, but let me attempt to recap.

I was <500 ft and coming in a little fast. That he was talking me through "best practices" was obviously the wrong way of stating the situation. In order to reduce speed, I reached to make an adjustment on the throttle and he advised using flaps before power. That was pretty much it. Shortly thereafter, his demeanor changed. I assumed it was because of what I was doing, but then I saw the jet taxing out. My CFI heard the call before the jet started moving. The jet started moving immediately when the call was made and radioed back his clearance as he taxied out.

So, basically, I reacted to seeing the jet moving and he reacted to hearing the clearance call. He then talked me through a go-around. We were well into the go-around before I saw the jet even start moving down the runway, so, yeah... trust me, there would have absolutely been a conflict had I continued on my path.

Again, it wasn't the first ATC issue that day, just the last and largest in the line. The only thing I fault the jet for is not looking for incoming traffic before moving out. I don't fault my CFI for anything, as he advised me to go-around, talked me safely through the procedure and made the event a helpful learning experience.

Not really much else to clarify on this. Thank you for your input.




Captain - heh. Let's hope it's the smile & groan!

You were hot and high, you reached for the throttle and he tell you to apply flaps??? At what point in the landing do you go to idle power? I'm assuming you're flying the typical "bugsmasher" trainer type airplane.

Remember: In the landing and low speed regime, pitch controls airspeed power for glidepath.

Based on your description, your reaching for the throttle was appropriate (assuming you were reducing power from whatever the setting was). If you just had to make the landing, then perhaps full flaps after increasing pitch and if that still won't make it a side slip nearly always works.

 

[Vance Breese]

Hello Cajun Flyer, I feel you have managed this thread in a very productive way.
Your responses have been articulate and not at all confrontational.
I fly out of a Class D airport and find it disquieting when my landing clearance is disrupted without ATC letting me know.
I have found value in discussing my surprise with the tower boss.
When I was a student pilot I took a tower tour at each of the controlled fields where I landed.
It appears to me that each control tower develops a culture of its own and I find it helps if I understand that culture and work around whatever limitations I perceive.
I wish you all the best on your aviation adventure and look forward to your future threads.

 

[fiveoboy01]

You were hot and high, you reached for the throttle and he tell you to apply flaps??? At what point in the landing do you go to idle power? I'm assuming you're flying the typical "bugsmasher" trainer type airplane.

Remember: In the landing and low speed regime, pitch controls airspeed power for glidepath.

Based on your description, your reaching for the throttle was appropriate (assuming you were reducing power from whatever the setting was). If you just had to make the landing, then perhaps full flaps after increasing pitch and if that still won't make it a side slip nearly always works.

She didn't say she was high. She said she was below 500 feet and a little fast.

I'd probably dump the last notch of flaps and/or pitch up a hair before messing with the power. Depends on how much a "little fast" is, length of the runway, etc....

 

[NoBShere]

Hey Cajun, as a new pilot, that flys out of a Class D, I have learned something from your post. Thanks for sharing and based upon your description, I bet you are better off on aviation knowledge than I was at pre-solo. Best of luck to you.

PS: does New Orleans still have a football team

 

[Velocity173]

The order of it doesn't matter, as Jordan said lots of times there will be an aircraft on the runway somewhere with another one on final or short final.

In this particular case, the CFI wasn't happy with the separation so there was a go-around. Tower might have underestimated the speed or the distance of the aircraft on final. Or(unlikely) forgot about it. These things happen and that's why we get trained on what to do when they do happen. Not a particularly big deal, and certainly not enough reason to file any sort of report, IMO.

In this particular case the order doesn't matter because a Cat III aircraft (Challenger) was involved. If it were Cat I & II, then the order does matter.

The tower needs 6,000 ft and airborne with the Challenger by the time the OP crosses the threshold. Without having actually witnessed the OP's situation, it's impossible to tell if tower would have had the appropriate separation. "Really close to the numbers" sure sounds tight to be launching another aircraft in front of the OP.

 

[Jaybird180]

She didn't say she was high. She said she was below 500 feet and a little fast.

I'd probably dump the last notch of flaps and/or pitch up a hair before messing with the power. Depends on how much a "little fast" is, length of the runway, etc....

In another post she mentions being over the numbers. You don't consider 400-500feet high over the numbers in a bugsmasher?

Why wouldn't you dump power? I'm open to learning a new technique.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

In another post she mentions being over the numbers.

Sorry, amateur slip-up. See, my knowledge is anything but advanced. I was not above the numbers. I was above the ground coming at the numbers and <500 ft out. Nothing high about my position, just a little fast. My CFI's instructions were good. I trust him.

Anyway, I think from here on out, I'll let you guys debate the details and faults without my input. It's more fun for me that way than continuously clarifying

 

[fiveoboy01]

In another post she mentions being over the numbers. You don't consider 400-500feet high over the numbers in a bugsmasher?

Why wouldn't you dump power? I'm open to learning a new technique.

I missed that she said that. My post was assuming roughly on glide path and 10-15 knots fast in which case I'd get the rest of the flaps out and/or pitch to bleed off airspeed.

If I was at 400' over the numbers I'd probably be in the midst of a go around.

 

[Dihedral]

Cajun Flyer,
You have a lot of patience and and a logical approach to this and I wish you the best in your flying.

 

[Jaybird180]

Sorry, amateur slip-up. See, my knowledge is anything but advanced. I was not above the numbers. I was above the ground coming at the numbers and <500 ft out. Nothing high about my position, just a little fast. My CFI's instructions were good. I trust him.

Anyway, I think from here on out, I'll let you guys debate the details and faults without my input. It's more fun for me that way than continuously clarifying

Don't mind that. Truly you will learn more with active participation.

 

[Jaybird180]

I missed that she said that. My post was assuming roughly on glide path and 10-15 knots fast in which case I'd get the rest of the flaps out and/or pitch to bleed off airspeed.

If I was at 400' over the numbers I'd probably be in the midst of a go around.

I'm still waiting on an explanation as to why you'd dump flaps first.

 

[mkosmo]

I'm still waiting on an explanation as to why you'd dump flaps first.

That's been my question this thread, too. I'd pull power first, flaps second, slip third. If I'm that fast or high that I'm not just going with the flow, I'd probably go around.

No reason to burn extra gas while throwing drag out.

 

[Approach_controller]

I've followed this thread off and on (and admittedly don't have the desire to re review the first 3 pages) and only now feel compelled to post. The OP by her admission missed the call. Could there have been a problem with ATC? Absolutely. Could the Challenger pilot have blown an instruction, yup. Could the tower have seen OP too high, instructed a go around, taxied out the Challenger and the OP's CFI missed the call while telling OP to dump flaps, yeah.

The OP however is pre solo and say's she's caught ATC making numerous mistakes in the past. I'm not certain what knowledge of the 7110.65 is required from pre solo students these days, but that's a fairly bold claim. I'd be further interested to know her CFI's ATC background.

That isn't to say things didn't go south and for sure temper what ATC says. The moral of the story is a good one. However the pilot is typically the first to balk at a perfectly legal operation.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I'm still waiting on an explanation as to why you'd dump flaps first.

Because that's how I do it.

 

[Velocity173]

For the OP. I'm curious, after the Challenger pulled out in front of you, what happened with the go around? Did you over fly the aircraft? Did you parallel the runway and pass the aircraft while it was on the runway? Did it depart out in front of you?

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Oh, for the love of all things holy... two lights were red and two white, so unless that meaning has changed, I was NOT too high. lol You guys are killing me. And there is nothing bold in my claim about catching ATC in mistakes. When they tell me things like that I am third in line for landing, yet I can clearly count that I am fifth in line... doesn't take any advanced knowledge, just common sense. Heck, I don't even know wtf 7110.65 is! haha

Oh, and ATC never instructed a go-around. And, for the last time... while I missed the call, my CFI did not.

Gotta stop taking you guys' bait!


Velocity - hi As I recall, we did briefly fly over the aircraft. Pretty much right as we came over him, we turned right and as we climbed back out and cleaned up the plane, we made the call to ATC that we were going around.


Can't wait to see how this ^^^ new nugget of information gets overanalyzed and shredded down into another reason I should fire my CFI :wink2:


By the way, if any other newcomers jump on the thread holding a bat and are looking for the dead horse, he's about 4 pages back. Cheers!

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Because that's how I do it.

And, in this case, it was the right move for me. There was no reason for us to cut power. I wasn't barreling in at some crazy high speed. Just a tad on the faster end of where I should have been.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Cajun Flyer,
You have a lot of patience and and a logical approach to this and I wish you the best in your flying.

You'd think that this thread would have tested my patience too, but, thankfully, my thick skin keeps me warm at night.

Thanks so much for your well wishes!

Now, off to fly...

 

[Ravioli]

What red and white lights are you talking about? Certainly a pre-solo student isn't watching a VASI or a PAPI.

(Other threads cover the folly of using the cheater lights during initial training)

 

[Jaybird180]

Because that's how I do it.

It's not a rationale. And you're providing warm and fuzzy to the OP as a pre solo student that could result in task saturation someday. The throttle is one of the 4 basic controls. All powered aircraft have them. Flaps are 1/3 of the way toward a complex airplane, they are secondary controls.

I'd like a well justified rationale for the technique and advantages of using it...I wasn't baiting you, was interested in learning. But if you're falling on your sword just say so and we can be done with it.

 

[EdFred]

It's not a rationale. And you're providing warm and fuzzy to the OP as a pre solo student that could result in task saturation someday. The throttle is one of the 4 basic controls. All powered aircraft have them. Flaps are 1/3 of the way toward a complex airplane, they are secondary controls.

I'd like a well justified rationale for the technique and advantages of using it...I wasn't baiting you, was interested in learning. But if you're falling on your sword just say so and we can be done with it.

Do you trim down or throttle back to descend? Why is your way better than someone else's?

 

[Velocity173]

Oh, for the love of all things holy... two lights were red and two white, so unless that meaning has changed, I was NOT too high. lol You guys are killing me. And there is nothing bold in my claim about catching ATC in mistakes. When they tell me things like that I am third in line for landing, yet I can clearly count that I am fifth in line... doesn't take any advanced knowledge, just common sense. Heck, I don't even know wtf 7110.65 is! haha

Oh, and ATC never instructed a go-around. And, for the last time... while I missed the call, my CFI did not.

Gotta stop taking you guys' bait!


Velocity - hi As I recall, we did briefly fly over the aircraft. Pretty much right as we came over him, we turned right and as we climbed back out and cleaned up the plane, we made the call to ATC that we were going around.


Can't wait to see how this ^^^ new nugget of information gets overanalyzed and shredded down into another reason I should fire my CFI :wink2:


By the way, if any other newcomers jump on the thread holding a bat and are looking for the dead horse, he's about 4 pages back. Cheers!

Ok, it's quite obvious to me either the tower screwed up or, since you all never heard the tower clear the jet, possibly the jet taxied out on their own. Tower never issued traffic departing to your arrival as well. If you're flying over a departing aircraft at a towered field, someone screwed up.

 

[mkosmo]

Can't wait to see how this ^^^ new nugget of information gets overanalyzed and shredded down into another reason I should fire my CFI :wink2:


By the way, if any other newcomers jump on the thread holding a bat and are looking for the dead horse, he's about 4 pages back. Cheers!

Haha, congrats for catching on!

 

[MAKG1]

Ok, it's quite obvious to me either the tower screwed up or, since you all never heard the tower clear the jet, possibly the jet taxied out on their own. Tower never issued traffic departing to your arrival as well. If you're flying over a departing aircraft at a towered field, someone screwed up.

Might want to qualify that. I transition over towered fields with departing traffic frequently. Especially busy commercial airports. Tower usually wants a midfield transition, and not always at high altitude (e.g. Oakland, or even SFO -- though they prefer a transition just off the DER across the highway at 1500).

 

[Velocity173]

Might want to qualify that. I transition over towered fields with departing traffic frequently. Especially busy commercial airports. Tower usually wants a midfield transition, and not always at high altitude (e.g. Oakland, or even SFO -- though they prefer a transition just off the DER across the highway at 1500).

Of course. Transitions all day long. An aircraft while either in LUAW or departing and another aircraft flys over doing a low approach, that's a no go.

 

[fiveoboy01]

It's not a rationale.

It sure is.

And you're providing warm and fuzzy to the OP as a pre solo student that could result in task saturation someday. The throttle is one of the 4 basic controls. All powered aircraft have them. Flaps are 1/3 of the way toward a complex airplane, they are secondary controls.

Using flaps will get you task saturated. LOL, ok.

There's 50 different ways I might make a descent/approach depending on a bunch of factors. Using flaps is one way to slow down. So is chopping the throttle. So is slipping. So is pitching up. Sorry that I do not do it exactly the way that you think I should do it Sean Tucker.

 

[Jaybird180]

Do you trim down or throttle back to descend? Why is your way better than someone else's?

We still don't know what type airplane this is but for most training airplanes, trimming down would exacerbate the problem as given for the too fast approach. Why even introduce trimming down into the discussion? It's not one of the given choices and not subject of discussion.

She was chided for reaching for the throttle and told to add flaps. Another poster said he would do the same. I asked to know why based on the misunderstanding of too high and too fast.

And now that it was clarified that the 4-500ft was displacement versus vertical distance it brings a little more focus. Throttle would remain with some power because you don't have the runway made and flaps would be an effective drag device. But it's still like pressing the gas and brake simultaneously.