Blended Gasoline in a Cessna 152

:lol: I don't like using ethanol in anything, but I DO enjoy a good argument.

I was researching a bit on the Neraska standards yesterday since the O-320 powered C177 is STC'ed for 87 auto gas with no changes. What I found was that it is illegal to sell ethanol without it being appropriately marked and the state also tests fuel for any ethanol in the "unleaded" pump samples when they do the pump calibration checks at gas stations.


Doesn't mean the fuel truck gets the hose on the correct tank every time tho.
 
Interesting, the Peterson website says:

DO NOT USE FUEL CONTAINING ETHANOL

Gasoline containing more than 1% ethanol is not approved. Please make sure you have a source of ethanol free gasoline before ordering. View mogas (auto fuel) locations.

I guess 1% is "ethanol free"
 
bnt83 said:
How many manufacturers are still building airplane parts with natural rubber? US Rubber Co was building bags made of nitrile in 1946. The natural rubber argument is very very weak. I'd bet there isn't a parts supplier even using natural rubber anymore for aircraft.
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I know of at least one aircraft that was built with non-E-10 compatible fuel lines in the 1993. Went down some time in the 2000's.
 
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bnt83 said:
well don't tease and leave us hanging.
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What tease? I've already mentioned this.

A former coworker used "aircraft grade" fuel lines (He told me the exact spec, but I don't recall), used E-10, lost power on takeoff - fortunately he was on floats (Kitfox) and the lake was large enough (Belleville Lake near Willow Run KYIP) for him to set back down on. Investigation revealed very little fuel flow, cutting the fuel lines open showed that they had swelled nearly shut. He replaced them with SAE spec fuel lines. Last time I talked to him (before I retired from the previous job a couple years ago) it was still flying. N102JH
 
So is anybody aware as to whether or not the Cessna 152 contains any natural rubber or other sensitive components that would make actually make contact with the fuel.

There is a lot of speculation here, and I hate to add to it, but I reckon it is very likely the 152 would run just fine on standard e-10 pump gasoline with little modification.

A 152 could save nearly $15.00/hr in fuel costs in the area I fly in if it were running E-10 over 100LL assuming similar fuel consumption. This is a pretty significant cost reduction if you think about it... $1500 every 100 hours.
 
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vdehart said:
So is anybody aware as to whether or not the Cessna 152 contains any natural rubber or other sensitive components that would make actually make contact with the fuel.

There is a lot of speculation here, and I hate to add to it, but I reckon it is very likely the 152 would run just fine on standard e-10 pump gasoline with little modification.

A 152 could save nearly $15.00/hr in fuel costs in the area I fly in if it were running E-10 over 100LL assuming similar fuel consumption. This is a pretty significant cost reduction if you think about it... $1500 every 100 hours.
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Sounds expensive:
http://www.pacificnorthwestflying.com/index.php?topic=1689.0
 
The only rubber you will find is orings, and hose. New teflon hoses aren't much higher than prefabbed rubber ones. A 152 doesn't even have an accelerator pump with a leather plunger. Everything else is nitrile orings and cork or paper gaskets.

That all being said, you NEED an FAA approval to run E10. These E85 STCs may allow that burried in the text of the STC. Best way to find out is contact the STC holder.
 
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I could look for hours and hours. The first question pops into my head is "what has Brazil been doing". Seems like if annyone was widely using ethanol in aircraft would be them.
 
A better question would be.....how many pilots here in this country use gas with ethanol in it? How does it work? Any problems? There have to have been hundreds of articles in the past few years telling you to not use it in aircraft.
 
I've always had a drop in fuel economy in my car, that was enough "testing" for me.
 
jesse said:
It seems like every boat motor I've bought leaks fuel big time from everywhere they can leak fuel until I rebuild them. I always suspect that ethanol is the cause of that.
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My father took pride in keeping ancient engines running, boats, lawn mowers etc.,( I have his 30+ year old mower now that currently cuts my yard). He wasn't a chemist but mentioning ethanol fuel would send him into a temporary bout of Tourette's syndrome for the reasons you state.
 
bnt83 said:
The only rubber you will find is orings, and hose. New teflon hoses aren't much higher than prefabbed rubber ones. A 152 doesn't even have an accelerator pump with a leather plunger. Everything else is nitrile orings and cork or paper gaskets.

That all being said, you NEED an FAA approval to run E10. These E85 STCs may allow that burried in the text of the STC. Best way to find out is contact the STC holder.
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What about things in the carb? I don't think the big issue is that it's impossible - the issue is that you'd damn near have to tear into the entire fuel system on damn near every airplane to figure out if something was put in there at some point that wasn't compatible with the ethanol. Different carb combinations on different engines - different shops overhauling them - blah blah blah.

When there is no requirement for something to be ethanol compatible across a large fleet constructed and maintained over the last 80 years with countless different people maintaining and lots of combinations of parts it becomes very difficult to widespread a change across that fleet. Easy on a case by case scenario -- much more difficult as you increase the number of airplanes and types.

That said, as we both know, it'd be pretty simple to do on a case by case basis with each airplane if the owner were willing to pay for the labor and parts to do that which wouldn't be that much. A path, to be able to do things like that, is what we need. *crosses fingers for regulatory changes*
 
Jimmy cooper said:
A better question would be.....how many pilots here in this country use gas with ethanol in it? How does it work? Any problems? There have to have been hundreds of articles in the past few years telling you to not use it in aircraft.
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My plane is FAR from a Cessna as the title of the thread states... But...

I have decades of racing cars and boats and most of them all ran on straight Methanol.. I love the stuff...:yes:..

When I built my experimental and put in a V-8 Ford, I purposely designed and built my entire fuel system to be compatiable with Alcohol.. even to the point of being able to run straight Methanol or Ethanol... From the tanks, to the sloshing compound, to the fuel lines, to the fittings, to the mechanical fuel pump to the needle and seat in the carb.........

And , Personally I prefer running alcohol laced fuel... Considering alcohol has alot of oxygen molecules in it ,the composition actually helps up high as it basically chemically supercharges the motor to a small degree... I have NEVER had it vapor lock, or any other side effect that seems to get thrown around when discussing laced fuel... And yeah,,, it has been tested to the lower 20's flight levels....

Altho I do get a bit less fuel mileage because of the reduced BTU content.... I am ready for whatever the feds throw at me in regards to fuel...:yes:
 
jesse said:
What are we debating here? I'm not even so sure at this point. Each airplane may or may not have components that may or may not be damaged by ethanol.
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Exactly. Many RVs are running ethanol laced mogas with no problems at all. :dunno:

There is an entire squadron of RV-3s at Tea, SD that fly on 100% ethanol. :dunno:
 
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bnt83 said:
Interesting, the Peterson website says:

DO NOT USE FUEL CONTAINING ETHANOL

Gasoline containing more than 1% ethanol is not approved. Please make sure you have a source of ethanol free gasoline before ordering. View mogas (auto fuel) locations.

I guess 1% is "ethanol free"
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Nothing is ever 100%. There's no 100% ethanol for practical purposes. Even the pure stocks are typically denatured with a few percent of real gas to make it undrinkable so that it doesn't get taxed as a beverage.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
A better question would be.....how many pilots here in this country use gas with ethanol in it? How does it work? Any problems? There have to have been hundreds of articles in the past few years telling you to not use it in aircraft.
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I use it. So do many others. The engine runs fine.

I have had no problems.

Yes, consumption (gallons per horsepower hour) is higher.

Others have had problems with fuel lines (as previously noted - some work, some don't). Do you know that all of the fuel lines in your aircraft have been updated to a material that will resist E-10?

There have been problems with resins in the fuel tank as well: http://www.usjabiru.com/uploads/JSA-006_Auto_Fuel_Bulletin.pdf.

The vapor pressure as a function of % ethanol is very non linear and a mix of fuels can end up with a higher vapor pressure than either of the base fuels.

And, if you own a type certified aircraft, all of the STCs forbid the use of E-10.

Rotax says the engine is good for E-10.
 
jesse said:
What about things in the carb? I don't think the big issue is that it's impossible - the issue is that you'd damn near have to tear into the entire fuel system on damn near every airplane to figure out if something was put in there at some point that wasn't compatible with the ethanol. Different carb combinations on different engines - different shops overhauling them - blah blah blah.
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Take a look at what is inside these carburetors:

http://www.avstardirect.com/products/category/1/page:9


They are all pretty much variants of each other. Take the Marvel Schebler MA series for instance, they all power pretty much all of the carbureted Cessnas except for maybe the 120 and 140 and 195 and the side draft 172RG 182RG? There have been many manufacturers building these over the years. I put a brand new Avstar Fuel System one on the C177.

Float - Brass floats have been around for decades. "Fuel proof" epoxy floats are standard on others, again been around for decades. I don't think anyone makes plastic hollow floats anymore.

Gaskets - Most of the gaskets are either cork paper or copper

Float needle is rubber tipped.

If the carb is equipped with an accelerator pump, it has a leather seal on it.


That is pretty much it. O-rings come in standard sizes no matter what material they are made from, and are easy to change. I could take an aluminum AN816 nipple out of a phosphate ester based hydraulic system and place it into a Cessna 150 fuel system by simply removing the hydraulic fluid residue and replacing the o-ring with a new appropriate one.
 
Well, I know I'm being obstructionist, and I guess I apologize in advance. I looked up the tank asm for the 150, and found the following:

Main tank, fig 12-8, 12-9, 12-13?, 12-16, 12-19?, 12-21, 12-22.

That's just the fuel tank and cap. The lines and gascolator, shutoff valve, carb, primer, and intake haven't been checked yet. If it touches fuel, it has to be evaluated.
 
I understand the above, and realize that on an airplane by airplane basis it's not terribly difficult, but I suspect the moment you go down the road of needing to develop a STC for every type out there things start to become a lot more difficult. Short of major regulatory changes that's the option we're stuck with.
 
docmirror said:
Well, I know I'm being obstructionist, and I guess I apologize in advance. I looked up the tank asm for the 150, and found the following:

Main tank, fig 12-8, 12-9, 12-13?, 12-16, 12-19?, 12-21, 12-22.

That's just the fuel tank and cap. The lines and gascolator, shutoff valve, carb, primer, and intake haven't been checked yet. If it touches fuel, it has to be evaluated.
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You don't even have to go that far. The guys mentioned earlier who are running ethanol in the IO-320 tried an O-320 and the carburetor failed. Now you can spend a lot of time trying to fix whatever is wrong with the carb, but if you're going to all that effort, you might as well reengineer the thing. Once you do that you've got way over just issuing a "fuel src" for a 150.
 
flyingron said:
You don't even have to go that far. The guys mentioned earlier who are running ethanol in the IO-320 tried an O-320 and the carburetor failed. Now you can spend a lot of time trying to fix whatever is wrong with the carb, but if you're going to all that effort, you might as well reengineer the thing. Once you do that you've got way over just issuing a "fuel src" for a 150.
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I said basically the same thing back in post 12:

"I'm not a fan, but short of getting Ethanol out of the fuel supply, it would be helpful if there was even some modest work invested."

Just trying to counter the theme of it being so easy. I don't think it is.
 
bnt83 said:
I don't think there are any approvals for certificated aircraft to run ethanol or any blends of it.
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My Tampico is certified to run with up to 1% alcohol in the fuel...:D.

Not really much help. I think they did it to let you know you could add some to scavenge water.

Jim
 
A shift in topic, did you guys know there is an STC for water injection on IO470/IO520 powered 210, Barrons, and a few others allowing 91 auto fuel already out there?
 
Cessna C-188


Approved Models: A188, A188A, A188




Cessna C-210


Approved Models: 210, A, B, C, G, H, J, K, L, M, N thru Serial 21064535



Beech Baron


Approved Models: 95-B55, 95-B55A, S/N TC-502 AND ON,
95-B55B (T42A), D55, D55A, E55, E55A, 95-C55, 95-C55A, and
58 or 58A THRU S/N TH-1395 EXCEPT TH1389


http://www.flyinpulse.com/inpulse_info/stced_aircrafts
 
bnt83 said:
Cessna C-188


Approved Models: A188, A188A, A188




Cessna C-210


Approved Models: 210, A, B, C, G, H, J, K, L, M, N thru Serial 21064535



Beech Baron


Approved Models: 95-B55, 95-B55A, S/N TC-502 AND ON,
95-B55B (T42A), D55, D55A, E55, E55A, 95-C55, 95-C55A, and
58 or 58A THRU S/N TH-1395 EXCEPT TH1389


http://www.flyinpulse.com/inpulse_info/stced_aircrafts
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Now that is interesting. I used water inj on my old motorhome in the 80s cause it would ping on long grades, but I never thought of it in aircraft. Only downside I can see is the plumbing is rather goofy, but hey - it works and it's approved.
 
docmirror said:
Now that is interesting. I used water inj on my old motorhome in the 80s cause it would ping on long grades, but I never thought of it in aircraft. Only downside I can see is the plumbing is rather goofy, but hey - it works and it's approved.
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Take a look at a fixed gear 177 sometime for goofy...
 
Jimmy cooper said:
A better question would be.....how many pilots here in this country use gas with ethanol in it? How does it work? Any problems? There have to have been hundreds of articles in the past few years telling you to not use it in aircraft.
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A lot of them do - and they are not talking about it. They are as tired of the legal BS as most of the rest of us and they are simply breaking from the pack and keeping their mouth shut.

Experimental aviation let's you do LOTS of things that will show you what works and what doesn't, if you're willing to do the research and think for yourself instead of waiting for someone else to spoonfeed it to you. Once you know the truth, the temptation is great to apply it to other areas of your life. :yes:

N801BH said:
When I built my experimental and put in a V-8 Ford, I purposely designed and built my entire fuel system to be compatiable with Alcohol.. even to the point of being able to run straight Methanol or Ethanol... From the tanks, to the sloshing compound, to the fuel lines, to the fittings, to the mechanical fuel pump to the needle and seat in the carb.........
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Yep, same here in my RV9A.
docmirror said:
Now that is interesting. I used water inj on my old motorhome in the 80s cause it would ping on long grades, but I never thought of it in aircraft. Only downside I can see is the plumbing is rather goofy, but hey - it works and it's approved.
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Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of the OWT that ethanol fuel attracts moisture and causes corrosion in the engine, doesn't it?

No argument that it attracts moisture - but if the result was corrosion then these others should be falling out of the sky by now...
 
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airguy said:
Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of the OWT that ethanol fuel attracts moisture and causes corrosion in the engine, doesn't it?

No argument that it attracts moisture - but if the result was corrosion then these others should be falling out of the sky by now...
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No, disagree here. The system uses a separate tank, lines, pump and injectors. The mixture is injected right at the plenum and atomized with the incoming charge of fuel so the only soft part of the engine that sees the unburnt mixture would be the plenum to intake boots. After that, it's burned and headed out the exh valve. None of the ADI solution ever touches anything built by Lycoming, Cessna, etc.

There is no question that Ethanol is miscible, and there is also no question that it promotes corrosion in some alloys. This is quite well known, and provable. I've seen it and have an example right now. I modify my 5gal fuel cans with a hole drilled in the upper back of the can and a tire valve inserted without the stem. I can remove the cap to the tire valve and let it breath while I fill. The 'rubber' stem will swell and get all mushy if I leave Ethanol blended fuel in there for more than a few days. I could take a pic and show you, but you can do your own experiments and validate it with almost any kind of non-fuel compliant hose.
 
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docmirror said:
No, disagree here. The system uses a separate tank, lines, pump and injectors. The mixture is injected right at the plenum and atomized with the incoming charge of fuel so the only soft part of the engine that sees the unburnt mixture would be the plenum to intake boots. After that, it's burned and headed out the exh valve. None of the ADI solution ever touches anything built by Lycoming, Cessna, etc.

There is no question that Ethanol is miscible, and there is also no question that it promotes corrosion in some alloys. This is quite well known, and provable. I've seen it and have an example right now. I modify my 5gal fuel cans with a hole drilled in the upper back of the can and a tire valve inserted without the stem. I can remove the cap to the tire valve and let it breath while I fill. The 'rubber' stem will swell and get all mushy if I leave Ethanol blended fuel in there for more than a few days. I could take a pic and show you, but you can do your own experiments and validate it with almost any kind of non-fuel compliant hose.
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No question on the rubber compounds, that's been my statement all along (it was bnt83 that was arguing that point). My point was that the ethanol itself is not nearly as bad for the engine from a corrosion standpoint as the OWT's would have you believe. There are a large number of engines in the world running high-percentage to straight ethanol just fine.
 
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