Best way to use GPS when vectors given

[Salty]

Ok, here's the scenario: Following flight plan with waypoints and then ATC starts giving vectors with 100 miles to go. Rest of trip is all random vectors ignoring 90% of the original clearance route.

Is there any good way to make use of a Garmin product to navigate in such a situation, or do you just bug the heading given and ignore the magenta line the whole time?

 

[Notrub]

This has happened to to me in north east part of country. And often I am put back somewhere on my plan or a direct to the initial fix. Just depends on situation at hand. I always leave it as no matter the day or weather i make a point to load the approach for landing runway. My gps needs the destination to load the approach

 

[Salty]

This has happened to to me in north east part of country. And often I am put back somewhere on my plan or a direct to the initial fix. Just depends on situation at hand. I always leave it as no matter the day or weather i make a point to load the approach for landing runway. My gps needs the destination to load the approach

That makes sense. In this particular situation it was severe clear, not a cloud in the entire sky and I requested a visual approach. But if I had intended to fly an IAP, I think that would have made it even more confusing to add a procedure to a flight plan that I'm nowhere near....

 

[Hang 4]

Get the ATIS for your destination and load (but don't activate) the expected approach. Will help with situational awareness when you get near it. For enroute, just use the bug. Transition from vectors to an approach is a very good thing to practice. At least in my part of FL, it's all I ever get.

 

[jrcox19]

GPS navigators don't really "do" heading, just by nature of how GPS works, so unfortunately there's probably not a shortcut for what you're trying to do. Just use the heading bug.

 

[frfly172]

When ATC starts giving you vectors it’s usually to expedite the flow of traffic ,or to give you a shorter route. Just follow the heading bug, don’t worry about the GPS mantra line.

 

[luvflyin]

Ok, here's the scenario: Following flight plan with waypoints and then ATC starts giving vectors with 100 miles to go. Rest of trip is all random vectors ignoring 90% of the original clearance route.

Is there any good way to make use of a Garmin product to navigate in such a situation, or do you just bug the heading given and ignore the magenta line the whole time?

I’d manage it based on what the purpose of the vector is. Around traffic, just leave the current active leg there. If still on a vector after passing roughly abeam it, activate the next leg. If the vector is to a waypoint, airway etc., activate that. If it’s to a waypoint or something not already there to activate then ya got some work to do. Pretty much just manage it with a ‘whata I do if going NORDO’ mindset.

 

[Salty]

I’d manage it based on what the purpose of the vector is. Around traffic, just leave the current active leg there. If still on a vector after passing roughly abeam it, activate the next leg. If the vector is to a waypoint, airway etc., activate that. If it’s to a waypoint or something not already there to activate then ya got some work to do. Pretty much just manage it with a ‘whata I do if going NORDO’ mindset.

That's what I figured. I just wanted to see if I was missing anything clever. In this particular case it started about 5 degrees off track, then diverged further off track as the original course went more direct than the vectors given, until I was cleared for the visual approach. It's kind of a pain to fly vectors for a hundred miles without an autopilot. If I had an AP to hold the heading I probably wouldn't have asked the question.

 

[Tantalum]

bug the heading given and ignore the magenta line the whole time?

That is what I do..

On rare occasions it is obvious if it is a shortcut or something and I'll find the waypoint they seem to be sending me to and hit direct to that. Eventually they will clear you there and tell you to resume on now

 

[David Megginson]

Ok, here's the scenario: Following flight plan with waypoints and then ATC starts giving vectors with 100 miles to go. Rest of trip is all random vectors ignoring 90% of the original clearance route.

Is there any good way to make use of a Garmin product to navigate in such a situation, or do you just bug the heading given and ignore the magenta line the whole time?

Obviously, you follow the heading bug like ATC told you, but a GPS is a still a good source of secondary navigation information, including groundspeed, approximate time to destination (depending on how direct the vectors are), terrain, obstacles, etc etc. You can also keep the most-likely approach loaded, so that you can quickly go direct to the appropriate waypoint when the time comes.

 

[David Megginson]

That is what I do..

On rare occasions it is obvious if it is a shortcut or something and I'll find the waypoint they seem to be sending me to and hit direct to that. Eventually they will clear you there and tell you to resume on now

You can sometimes accelerate that by saying "Able own navigation to XXX".

 

[luvflyin]

That's what I figured. I just wanted to see if I was missing anything clever. In this particular case it started about 5 degrees off track, then diverged further off track as the original course went more direct than the vectors given, until I was cleared for the visual approach. It's kind of a pain to fly vectors for a hundred miles without an autopilot. If I had an AP to hold the heading I probably wouldn't have asked the question.

?? With no autopilot ya gotta be able to hold a heading anyway. Unless you literally just chase the CDI needle(or pink line) without using your DG.

 

[Deelee]

Fly the hdg bug until they give you an expected approach. Then load (not activate... that’s another thread) the expected and don’t use VTF - use the IAF that makes sense from the direction you are approaching. As you get closer to the approach, activate the leg that your current hdg will intercept. If that changes, activate a different leg. Big reason to not use VTF. As you get closer to intercept, ATC says the magic words - maintain xxxx until established cleared xxxx.... for me it’s a good use of the GPS but that’s only as you get close to approach. Otherwise, just fly the hdg bug, use the Garmin for situational awareness I guess.

 

[GMascelli]

Use the heading bug and fly the vectors as directed. At that point your GPS is situational awareness. Keep the flight plan running, we all know vectors can switch to a ‘direct to’ in an instant. As others mentioned, pick up the ATIS, load and brief the approach, ready to activate when cleared. In VFR conditions same applies until you cancel or accept a visual approach.

 

[Salty]

?? With no autopilot ya gotta be able to hold a heading anyway. Unless you literally just chase the CDI needle(or pink line) without using your DG.

True. I guess I just like the safety blanket of knowing I'm not drifting, but you're right, it's no different.

 

[Salty]

True. I guess I just like the safety blanket of knowing I'm not drifting, but you're right, it's no different.

Oh, I remember now. Having the magenta line drifting off was distracting. I kept instinctively trying to turn to stay on course, and then remembered I wasn't following the line any more. Having no line would be better than having it diverging. Again, doing that for a few minutes no big deal, but doing it for 45 minutes annoyed me.

 

[WannFly]

I have been told to alway load the approach from the IAF that way less button pushing when activating VTF. For random vectors or delay vectors in my case as I often get, just bug it and forget the line

 

[chemgeek]

Ok, here's the scenario: Following flight plan with waypoints and then ATC starts giving vectors with 100 miles to go. Rest of trip is all random vectors ignoring 90% of the original clearance route.

Is there any good way to make use of a Garmin product to navigate in such a situation, or do you just bug the heading given and ignore the magenta line the whole time?

If on a vector, just dial in the heading and fly that. If ATC doesn't like your heading, they will issue a correction. If programming a GPS for IFR, I rarely put in the entire flight plan, because it almost always changes due to a re-route or a shortcut (which is nearly always appreciated.) I usually put in the first few fixes, and then add additional ones according to current clearance as we go along. I always keep the destination programmed so if I get a "direct destination" at some point I am ready to hit Direct-Enter-Enter and activate the approach once needed. The GPS while on a vector is just for weather, traffic, and geographic awareness.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is what I do..

Me too. Might be enroute vectors from ATC. Might be vectors in the terminal environment for an approach. Or might be me asking for a left/right deviation for weather. Happens all the time. And they are all the same.

Primary navigation is now my DG or HSI heading. The map screen on the GPS is for situational awareness (as always). No need to do anything else with the routing until at least told to expect a different routing than already loaded.

 

[Bill]

Fly the hdg bug until they give you an expected approach. Then load (not activate... that’s another thread) the expected and don’t use VTF - use the IAF that makes sense from the direction you are approaching. As you get closer to the approach, activate the leg that your current hdg will intercept. If that changes, activate a different leg. Big reason to not use VTF.

That was a big tip my CFII gave me on the last IPC, don't ever use VTF, always choose an IAF. Makes things much easier if you don't end up getting VTF or if approach asks you to go direct to the IAF.

 

[Deelee]

Not using VTF and loading an IAF has been extremely helpful during my IR dual training. In my mind it serves a couple of purposes - I am able to load (but not activate) the approach as soon as ATC says "expect the XXXX approach...". So I get that out of the way very early which helps me, a rookie, stay more ahead of the airplane. I still have my plan loaded in the 430, but the approach legs are ready to go. I am able to get ATIS, set altimeters, tune radios, brief approach waaaay ahead of time (so four of the five As are already done... all that is left is do the approach checklist closer to approach).

Now, best case, I get from ATC, "Fly direct [IAP XXX] maintain 3,000 until established cleared XXXX approach". Great. Buttonology is simple - go to FPL, activate cursor, scroll to IAF, Click Direct To Enter Enter.

If I start getting vectored (usual case), still not bad. Set HDG bug, flip AP to HDG mode. Then start to anticipate where the vectoring is going to intersect a leg on the IAP. That is usually between some IF and the FAF or between two IFs depending on the approach and it is usually pretty clear which leg will be intersected. Butonology is still simple - go to FPL, activate cursor, select the 'to' waypoint in the leg to activate, click menu, select activate leg.... boom! The leg to be intersected turns magenta!

Now I have an active leg to intercept and I can anticipate when to either make the turn to final approach course (if hand flying) or when to flip the AP back into NAV/GPSS mode so it will put the aircraft on the final approach course for me.

(sorry for the long write-up.... most of ya'll know this stuff. At this point, I have been writing out my procedures so they get further engrained in my brain in prep for checkride... which should be soon hopefully....)

 

[David Megginson]

Oh, I remember now. Having the magenta line drifting off was distracting. I kept instinctively trying to turn to stay on course, and then remembered I wasn't following the line any more. Having no line would be better than having it diverging. Again, doing that for a few minutes no big deal, but doing it for 45 minutes annoyed me.

When I'm hand flying along a leg in IMC, I take things in this order (leaving out altitude for now):

1. Am I maintaining the wings level? (AI and TC)
2. Are the level wings keeping me on my chosen heading? (DG, regularly cross-checked with mag compass)
3. Is my chosen heading keeping me on my intended course? (CDI or HSI)
4. When time permits, what else is going on? (moving map, traffic, nexrad weather, fuel, oil temp and pressure, etc etc)

Modern avionics are amazing, but their danger is that they lure us into taking all this in the wrong order, and trying to actually fly the magenta line, rather than flying attitude+heading, confirming regularly with the CDI (if not on a vector), and just glancing once in a while at the magenta line to make sure nothing seems wonky.

I'm guessing this is why you're finding it stressful flying a vector. Embrace it as an lucky opportunity to restructure your instrument scan to spend more time looking at the primary instruments and less looking at the moving map (we all need to take advantage of these opportunities for improvement, no matter how long we've been flying).


Cheers, David

 

[Hang 4]

That was a big tip my CFII gave me on the last IPC, don't ever use VTF, always choose an IAF. Makes things much easier if you don't end up getting VTF or if approach asks you to go direct to the IAF.

Makes a big difference if you have a GNS series or a GTN. My understanding with a GNS is that selecting VTF deletes all the fixes except for the FAF, if that's correct, I can see why to avoid VTF. With a GTN, all the fixes remain, so it's easy to scroll through and "direct-to" an intermediate fix. I seem to always get vectors. I use the heading bug to fly the vectors, activate the approach once I'm within about 10 miles of where I expect the intercept and switch from Heading to GPSS (assuming I'm using my AP) once I'm on the final intercept.

 

[Bill]

Makes a big difference if you have a GNS series or a GTN. My understanding with a GNS is that selecting VTF deletes all the fixes except for the FAF, if that's correct

Yeah, we have a GNS430W, and correct, deletes the IAFs. Makes for a lot of button pushing close in if you don't get VTF.

 

[David Megginson]

Makes a big difference if you have a GNS series or a GTN. My understanding with a GNS is that selecting VTF deletes all the fixes except for the FAF, if that's correct, I can see why to avoid VTF. With a GTN, all the fixes remain, so it's easy to scroll through and "direct-to" an intermediate fix. I seem to always get vectors. I use the heading bug to fly the vectors, activate the approach once I'm within about 10 miles of where I expect the intercept and switch from Heading to GPSS (assuming I'm using my AP) once I'm on the final intercept.

Good point, but slight clarification. If your GTN has software version 5.13 or earlier, it will act just like the GNS and delete all waypoints prior to the FAF. If your GTN has software version 6.00 or later, it will keep all waypoints along the final approach course, but not any IAWPs off at the ends of the T. Since ATC could still clear you to one of those, it's still better not to use VTF (though less of a problem than it was before).

 

[Lance F]

And don't forget the Direct-Direct-Enter command to activate and join a leg. I'll use this function on a visual approach even if I'm joining the final approach course inside the FAF.

 

[David Megginson]

And don't forget the Direct-Direct-Enter command to activate and join a leg. I'll use this function on a visual approach even if I'm joining the final approach course inside the FAF.

Thanks! I pride myself on knowing all the GTN shortcuts, but I didn't know that one. I'll try it out the next time I reboot from Linux into Windows and can run the GTN trainer (and, of course, tomorrow when I'm flying).

D

 

[midlifeflyer]

Makes a big difference if you have a GNS series or a GTN. My understanding with a GNS is that selecting VTF deletes all the fixes except for the FAF, if that's correct, I can see why to avoid VTF. With a GTN, all the fixes remain, so it's easy to scroll through and "direct-to" an intermediate fix. I seem to always get vectors. I use the heading bug to fly the vectors, activate the approach once I'm within about 10 miles of where I expect the intercept and switch from Heading to GPSS (assuming I'm using my AP) once I'm on the final intercept.

Actually, not all fixes remain with the GTN. Just the ones on the extended final approach course. That leaves out other waypoints, like those ones very common on T- shaped TAAs which, depending on your direction of flight, might still be given to you. So the inclusion of some other waypoints along the extended FAC is not a reason to load VTF when you first loan an approach.

That said, I have no problem with loading VTF in any GPS navigator later in the process when appropriate based on overall situational awareness.

 

[Hang 4]

And don't forget the Direct-Direct-Enter command to activate and join a leg. I'll use this function on a visual approach even if I'm joining the final approach course inside the FAF.

Thanks! I pride myself on knowing all the GTN shortcuts, but I didn't know that one. I'll try it out the next time I reboot from Linux into Windows and can run the GTN trainer (and, of course, tomorrow when I'm flying).
D

Think that might be specific to the GNS series not GTN. I played with it quickly on the iPad GTN simulator and couldn't make it work. Of course that could be me

 

[Hang 4]

Actually, not all fixes remain with the GTN. Just the ones on the extended final approach course. That leaves out other waypoints, like those ones very common on T- shaped TAAs which, depending on your direction of flight, might still be given to you. So the inclusion of some other waypoints along the extended FAC is not a reason to load VTF when you first loan an approach.

That said, I have no problem with loading VTF in any GPS navigator later in the process when appropriate based on overall situational awareness.

Thanks for the clarification. @David Megginson pointed out the same. I don't have many approaches with "T" fixes near me, which is why I missed that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks! I pride myself on knowing all the GTN shortcuts, but I didn't know that one. I'll try it out the next time I reboot from Linux into Windows and can run the GTN trainer (and, of course, tomorrow when I'm flying).

D

The double -D→ to activate a leg has been available since the early GNS. Pretty much Garmin-standard. And @Hang 4 is correct. It's not a GTN feature. The touchscreen makes it unnecessary. Just touch the waypoint and it pops up.

 

[David Megginson]

The double -D→ to activate a leg has been available since the early GNS. Pretty much Garmin-standard. And @Hang 4 is correct. It's not a GTN feature. The touchscreen makes it unnecessary. Just touch the waypoint and it pops up.

Ah, thanks.

There is a surprising amount you can do on the GTN without the touchscreen (anti-GTN propaganda aside), but I guess that's not one of them.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ah, thanks.

There is a surprising amount you can do on the GTN without the touchscreen (anti-GTN propaganda aside), but I guess that's not one of them.

True, but most if not all of those involve data entry rather than function selection.

And on this function, the GTN does this much faster than the GNS double-Direct. Starting with already having one to the flight plan page..

GNS: Tap FMS to Activate Cursor | Scroll to waypoint | Tap Direct | Tap Direct | Tap Enter. 4 Taps and a scroll.
That rings you back to the Map. If you also want to check the flight plan page to confirm, add another tap. So 5 taps and a scroll

GTN: Tap on the waypoint | Tap activate leg.

And the touchscreen propaganda notwithstanding, notice that except for the additional scrolling in the GNS to get there, it's all taps no mater which system you use. And, the GTN tapping targets are bigger!

 

[denverpilot]

Actually, not all fixes remain with the GTN. Just the ones on the extended final approach course. That leaves out other waypoints, like those ones very common on T- shaped TAAs which, depending on your direction of flight, might still be given to you. So the inclusion of some other waypoints along the extended FAC is not a reason to load VTF when you first loan an approach.

That said, I have no problem with loading VTF in any GPS navigator later in the process when appropriate based on overall situational awareness.

That T thing bit me square in the azz the first time I tried one in my airplane VMC. LOL.

Had played with the simulator but not for a T type. Oops.

Was a bunch of touch screen poking to fix it quick while keeping an eyeball on the backup / iPad to make sure I didn’t go wandering off into la la land on the map. LOL.

You ever purposefully jack up a student’s waypoints with a common buttonology screwup and ask them to quickly fix whatever mess was just made? Just curious.

Seems like a little “aww I just screwed the entire thing up, let’s reset this all quickly and start over” practice couldn’t hurt. But it is kinda “rude”.

Sorry dude. I hit VTF. LOL.

 

[Kelvin]

Pull your chute.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You ever purposefully jack up a student’s waypoints with a common buttonology screwup and ask them to quickly fix whatever mess was just made? Just curious.

No. Especially with the new nav boxes there is enough for pilots to screw up with normal albeit less common tasks. I prefer tossing in one of those rather than play bad passenger who screws with the equipment.

BTW, the first time I became aware of the VTF issue was while acting as a safety pilot in a G1000 airplane on an approach into COS more than 10 years ago.

 

[denverpilot]

No. Especially with the new nav boxes there is enough for pilots to screw up with normal albeit less common tasks. I prefer tossing in one of those rather than play bad passenger who screws with the equipment.

BTW, the first time I became aware of the VTF issue was while acting as a safety pilot in a G1000 airplane on an approach into COS more than 10 years ago.

I kinda figured not. Of course as you mention we all seem to do it to ourselves eventually anyway. Probably not much reason to set it up. LOL.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I kinda figured not. Of course as you mention we all seem to do it to ourselves eventually anyway. Probably not much reason to set it up. LOL.

Honestly, I've done something as simple as an instruction to fly a heading to intercept a radial with a G1000 and gotten the deer in the headlights look.

There was a fatality here about a year ago. The NTSB report isn't out yet but based on the audio it sounds like the precipitating event was changing the loaded approach.

Those three Garmin/Avidyne comparison videos I did over the summer were about those kinds of tasks.

 

[Salty]

While we are on the subject, I have a minor pet peeve with the way my garmin 2” navigator loads approaches that maybe someone can explain how to avoid or at least explain why it works that way.....

with a flight plan loaded, if I add a procedure, pretty much any of the two or three ways I know how, it leaves the original destination of the airport as a waypoint ahead of the approach, which, I guess makes some sense if your initial clearance is to the airport, but it clutters the screen quite a bit with path you’ll never fly right to the airport. I’ve gotten used to it now, but it still bugs me. I think it ought to be smart enough to put the airport at the end of the procedure, not before it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

While we are on the subject, I have a minor pet peeve with the way my garmin 2” navigator loads approaches that maybe someone can explain how to avoid or at least explain why it works that way.....

with a flight plan loaded, if I add a procedure, pretty much any of the two or three ways I know how, it leaves the original destination of the airport as a waypoint ahead of the approach, which, I guess makes some sense if your initial clearance is to the airport, but it clutters the screen quite a bit with path you’ll never fly right to the airport. I’ve gotten used to it now, but it still bugs me. I think it ought to be smart enough to put the airport at the end of the procedure, not before it.

When you load an approach, the system doesn't know you are actually going to use it until it's activated (in one of a number of ways).

I think it's a good thing and logical. The IAP for my destination is loaded waaaay before it's use, on a shorter flight, sometimes even before I take off. I don't want it to automatically insert itself and change my active route and waypoints until I tell it to. I think putting a series of waypoints which are not part of the currently active sequence and might not be used would be far more clutter. One of those YMMV things, I guess.