Bent Airplane *Long*

[tonycondon]

Well it finally happened. Bent my first airplane on Sunday. Posting here as fallout from insurance and FAA is over, no worries from either, so I would like you all to learn from me and critique my decision making. Challenge my thinking, you wont offend me!

Training with CFI student in 182RG we were working on short field landings. He was having trouble on the first few maintaining high enough airspeed and judging flaring height. Obviously this was resulting in harder than normal landings. Both of us were frustrated as said student has about 80 hours in the aircraft and was just having an off day i think. I made several suggestions. After the last "landing", really a flat bounce followed by a go around I took the plane to finish the lesson with a demo short landing to give him an idea of what to look for for next time. Downind - Gear Lever down, mains out, green light...wait, no green light

Exit the pattern, cycle the gear a couple times, still no green light. Looking in the mirror shows nose gear extended but of course cant tell if its locked. Running through our options resulted in:
Doing a low pass would be worthless, they cant see anything from the ground that we cant see in the mirror
Could have (probably did) break something on last hard landing. Now just wondering what it is.
Could be a wire, switch or perhaps something bent so that contact isnt being made but gear is locked (hopefully)
Could be bent beyond belief, gear is coming out but just not locking (hopefully not)

We briefed that I would perform a Soft Field landing, holding the nose off until the slowest speed, with minimum braking. No way I was going to dead stick it in, I wanted to land with power. I expected that if the nose gear was going to fail it would be as soon as weight was on it.

The Landing was beautiful. One of my top 5 Soft Field landings as far as technique goes. I made sure to hold the nose off past the intersection so that we wouldnt close down the whole airport. The nose slowly came down, and then it was on the ground! and we were rolling! we started slowing down, every second we rolled further the better we both felt. I still had full flaps and full back pressure held in. I was going to be as nice to the nose gear as I could. As we slowed to taxi speed I started to breathe a sigh of relief and

THUNK THUNK SCRAPE!!!!

*BLEEP*

Master off Key off, mixture and fuel off. "you OK?" "ya" ok lets get out.

Airplanes without nose gears look like dead birds.

Called up my boss, who was over at the FBO, he and our mechanic came out. We pulled down the tail (It sticks way up in the air without a nosegear) and pulled the nosewheel out. Used some tie downs to hold it out and tugged it into the hangar.

Student and I both felt like crap. He felt a lot worse than I did. I had a Discovery Ride right afterwards so I took that, and made a perfect landing, which made me feel very good.

Shops got the engine torn off already, sending parts in. FAA came to check logbooks, but nothing else. They were very friendly about it, which was nice. The inspector even issued me a new CFI license based on a FIRC I did in July!

A few things i've thought of already:
My Complex training is going to get a lot more complex from here on out. Not just a "oh gee your gear wont come down what are you going to do" More complex failures will be included
Leaving the gear down the entire time in the pattern might be a good idea. Im not sure if the gear was still locked after the bounced landing. My training and habits have included retracting the gear after every takeoff and not looking at the light.
If I had known the gear was going to hold as long as it did, I probably wouldve cut the engine as soon as we were down on the ground. Couldve saved an overhaul and since we wouldve been safe rolling on the runway wouldnt have increased risk much, especially with a second pilot to pull the mixture.

What do you think? Tell me i was an idiot, dont feel bad. I need more perspectives on the event. Also to you CFI's out there, I need some help remotivating the student. This knocked his confidence way down and Ill need to get him back up. His flying in all other areas was beyond Commercial standards. he was only one or maybe two more flights from a CFI sign off. I plan on getting him back in an airplane hopefully this week, which i know is step one. Have any of you had students in similar situations.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Sounds like "One of those things that happens." No worries. You can always look back and see things that could have been different.

Leaving the gear down the entire time in the pattern might be a good idea.

On the one hand, you have less of a chance of doing a gear up landing that way. On the other, it kind of defeats the purpose of Complex training. Part of that training is to remember to move that gear lever at the right time. I think that in the event of a go around where you will stay in the pattern and return for landing, leaving the gear down will prevent a gear up because someone forgot to put the gear down. But to do stop and go, touch and go, full stop landings, in other words, pattern work, you pretty much have to pull the gear up for training purposes.

If I had known the gear was going to hold as long as it did, I probably wouldve cut the engine as soon as we were down on the ground. Couldve saved an overhaul and since we wouldve been safe rolling on the runway wouldnt have increased risk much, especially with a second pilot to pull the mixture.

I think I would have done that too. But I don't know for sure. There are pros and cons to that, but I think with two people onboard and a proper briefing, someone pulling the mixture after the mains touch does not add much if any risk to the deal.

Over all, I think "Ya done good!"

 

[kthompson2k]

Sounds like you made all the right decisions, good job in my opinion!

KT

 

[JasonCT]

Glad everyone was ok Tony!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

That's not bad overall. Get the dude back up in the air ASAP -if simply experiencing this scenario is really enough to knock him out of CFIing or flying, he wasn't meant to be here.

 

[gismo]

Sounds like "One of those things that happens." No worries. You can always look back and see things that could have been different.

On the one hand, you have less of a chance of doing a gear up landing that way. On the other, it kind of defeats the purpose of Complex training. Part of that training is to remember to move that gear lever at the right time. I think that in the event of a go around where you will stay in the pattern and return for landing, leaving the gear down will prevent a gear up because someone forgot to put the gear down. But to do stop and go, touch and go, full stop landings, in other words, pattern work, you pretty much have to pull the gear up for training purposes.



I think I would have done that too. But I don't know for sure. There are pros and cons to that, but I think with two people onboard and a proper briefing, someone pulling the mixture after the mains touch does not add much if any risk to the deal.

Over all, I think "Ya done good!"

Ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto. Sure you coulda pulled the mixture (had I thought to stop the engine, I'd probably kill the mags then mixture, that shuts down quicker) but I think you were spot on to keep the engine running until you were on the ground under control and by then the chances of getting the engine stopped with the prop horizontal aren't all that good. Touchdown to collapse, you had what, fifteen or twenty seconds?

You may be thinking you could have done better, and perhaps if you practiced actual nose gear failure landings often you'd be more proficient at them, but that sounds kinda expensive to me. Seriously though, no oen was hurt and the plane will fly again. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give you a 9.8 on this one.

 

[Arnold]

What Greg and Lance said.

As the Captain you made what you thought were the best decisions at the time and your plan was executed flawlessly, bravo.

 

[jason]

There are two things that I noticed in your story that I find admirable.

1) you noticed the light was out
2) you trusted that it meant bad things even though you could see the gear down and you acted on it

Tony, "you can be my wing man any time".

Well done.

 

[tonycondon]

On the one hand, you have less of a chance of doing a gear up landing that way. On the other, it kind of defeats the purpose of Complex training. Part of that training is to remember to move that gear lever at the right time. I think that in the event of a go around where you will stay in the pattern and return for landing, leaving the gear down will prevent a gear up because someone forgot to put the gear down. But to do stop and go, touch and go, full stop landings, in other words, pattern work, you pretty much have to pull the gear up for training purposes.

i thought about that too Greg. It really does defeat the purpose and could actually cause a student to gear up down the road because "it was always down"

As far as mags vs. mixture. we probably rolled about 1500 feet with the nose gear on the ground before collapse. i couldve reached down and turned off the key but likely would want to focus attention on keeping weight off the nose gear. had enough time for right seater to pull mixture and hope that prop stops generally horizontal. at least the attempt wouldve been made.

You may be thinking you could have done better, and perhaps if you practiced actual nose gear failure landings often you'd be more proficient at them, but that sounds kinda expensive to me. Seriously though, no oen was hurt and the plane will fly again. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give you a 9.8 on this one

The only thing I really could have done better on was better observation and taking over sooner on the rough landing. and stopping the engine. as far as the landing, i really was just as surprised as the student, i didnt see it coming and that stuff just happens i guess. im really not worried about the engine, thats what insurance is for and my FBO isnt killing me over it. My mechanic told me "you can sit around and second guess yourself all day but when the brown stuff is running down your legs you dont consider everything" i think that may be quite an overstatement for this case but the point is still there. Of course i wont be doing actual no nose gear landings but throwing this scenario at students and other partial gear extension failures will be definitely in my cirriculum.

That's not bad overall. Get the dude back up in the air ASAP -if simply experiencing this scenario is really enough to knock him out of CFIing or flying, he wasn't meant to be here

I dont think it was the ride through the collapse that shook him up as it was knowing that it was his landing the time before that damaged somethign that caused the collapse. he is feeling pretty responsible and I cant really blame him for that. I dont count myself out of the doghouse on that one either, i am supposed to be the one to stop stuff like that from happening.

 

[jason]

I dont think it was the ride through the collapse that shook him up as it was knowing that it was his landing the time before that damaged somethign that caused the collapse. he is feeling pretty responsible and I cant really blame him for that. I dont count myself out of the doghouse on that one either, i am supposed to be the one to stop stuff like that from happening.

I would just be hoping like hell that the insurance company doesn't decide to subrogate. Does your FBO have a no subrogation clause?

 

[TMetzinger]

Tony,

In my opinion you did exactly the right thing(s). Once you're in the air the insurance company owns the airplane. Stopping the engine once the mains touch may not save much if anything. If the prop gets bent, you generally have to teardown and inspect the airplane anyway, even if the engine wasn't "running" at the time, since the impact to the prop can damage the crank (especially with the new super-fragile cranks they put in Lycomings <tongue in cheek here>).

You noticed a problem, ran through your options in the air, made a plan to minimize risk, executed the plan (perfectly, I might add), and it worked. Sure, it would have been nice if the nose was locked, but you weren't damaged when it turned out not to be locked.

Bravo Zulu!

 

[tonycondon]

yea tim. im not saying that i wouldve saved the engine. but it couldve been possible. i dont want it to seem like all i care about in a gear failure landing is the engine either. it is in fact the last thing. in this case though, it couldve had some consideration. i certainly wouldnt have been riding a wheelie down the runway trying to turn the starter to center the prop. wouldve been mixture out, let it stop and where it stops and hope for the best.

the real bummer is this engine was just overhauled this spring and only had 250 hrs or so on it. as a glider buddy of mine said though "It probably needed it!"

 

[flyingcheesehead]

the real bummer is this engine was just overhauled this spring and only had 250 hrs or so on it. as a glider buddy of mine said though "It probably needed it!"

The club Archer that had the prop strike had JUST finished break-in.

But, that's OK. The insurance company is paying for the teardown in both instances, and that's what insurance is for. Sounds to me like you did everything right... Bravo Zulu!

Oh, I was curious... Did you happen to try to talk to the boss on CTAF before landing? What about emergency vehicles, just in case? Mechanics to help troubleshoot? Did you consider landing at a different field for any reason? (Once again, I'm just curious on these... I think ya did great. )

 

[Steve]

What did you find was the failed part? Showing the candidate the mechanics of the failure would be a good learning opportunity. Whether he is a receptive trainee is another question.

Hey, if Jesse had been flying he would have hi-speed taxied with the nose off the ground until he was clear of the runway!

 

[TMetzinger]

yea tim. im not saying that i wouldve saved the engine. but it couldve been possible. i dont want it to seem like all i care about in a gear failure landing is the engine either. it is in fact the last thing. in this case though, it couldve had some consideration. i certainly wouldnt have been riding a wheelie down the runway trying to turn the starter to center the prop. wouldve been mixture out, let it stop and where it stops and hope for the best.

the real bummer is this engine was just overhauled this spring and only had 250 hrs or so on it. as a glider buddy of mine said though "It probably needed it!"

I still think that unless the prop was horizontal (only a two-blade?) you were looking at a mandatory inspection anyway, and a new prop. So I think the chances of you saving any significant amount of money by shutting down the engine were pretty close to nil.

Be glad it wasn't a twin!

 

[tonycondon]

Oh, I was curious... Did you happen to try to talk to the boss on CTAF before landing? What about emergency vehicles, just in case? Mechanics to help troubleshoot? Did you consider landing at a different field for any reason? (Once again, I'm just curious on these... I think ya did great. )

no, our FBO isnt "the" FBO so we dont have UNICOM capability. If we really needed them couldve relayed through the main FBO. i considered it but didnt really think they would be able to help much. The only thing you can do in the Cessna is try to put the gear down and if it wont go down it wont go down. Not like a piper where you pull the knob, pull some g's, yaw a bunch and get it to lock in place. No emergency vehicles available anyway even if i wouldve wanted them. i wasnt very worried about needing them. i knew i could keep the nose off until we were going very slow and wasnt too worried about really crashing. Didnt consider any other field. runways are plenty long at ames and if i was going to gear it up i would want to do it at home where the mechanic is (as im sure you are discovering with your clubs prop strike).

What did you find was the failed part? Showing the candidate the mechanics of the failure would be a good learning opportunity. Whether he is a receptive trainee is another question.

They havent gotten the nose gear taken apart yet. Engine is off and split apart, with parts in need of magnafluxing shipped out today. I think they will get into the gear tomorrow. I will definitely be taking a close look at what broke.

I still think that unless the prop was horizontal (only a two-blade?) you were looking at a mandatory inspection anyway, and a new prop. So I think the chances of you saving any significant amount of money by shutting down the engine were pretty close to nil

yea i know Tim. But by shutting it down, i have a better chance of saving engine than with leaving it run. If anything else it would show that i tried to save something. Like i said though it wasnt and still isnt a priority, just wouldve been something that couldve been nice to do.

and yes im glad it wasnt a twin, that would suck doubly.

 

[NC Pilot]

There is a Service Bulletin on the nose gear spring guide and actuator pin inspection (SB 84-3). Compliance with this SB should be manditory on any Cessna RG. The spring guide was originally made out of a white plastic that the ends would bend and in some cases break off leaving the nose gear unable to lock down. The part numbers for this spring guide have now been superceeded by part number 9882024-1.

So, have your A&P check for compliance with this SB. I have an idea that compliance with this one has not been performed on the plane you were flying (you did a great job BTW).

If you want a copy of the Cessna Pilots Association Tech Note let me know.

 

[tonycondon]

Im not sure. My FBO is a long time Cessna dealer and service center/pilot center etc. Theyve been selling cessna since the dawn of time. I know the plane was being used for VFR part 135 stuff up until about 2001 so if the SB was before then it was probably complied with. PM or email me the tech note anyway, im interested to learn more.

 

[gismo]

I dont think it was the ride through the collapse that shook him up as it was knowing that it was his landing the time before that damaged somethign that caused the collapse. he is feeling pretty responsible and I cant really blame him for that. I dont count myself out of the doghouse on that one either, i am supposed to be the one to stop stuff like that from happening.

There's a pretty good chance that your "rough landing" actually just broke something that was about to go anyway. It's possible that the eventual failure might have occured at a much less opportune moment for someone.

 

[tonycondon]

yea i know lance. theres no telling how many cycles that gear has been through. and a lot of its flying is in a training type environment. lots of high performance/complex check outs so lots and lots of gear cycles, lots of flat landings from people used to 172s etc. that said though, the final landing was the straw that broke the camels back. and i guess that if there is an opportune time to have a gear failure, its with a CFI on board at the home base.

 

[TMetzinger]

Um... was the rough landing a wheelbarrow with the nose first? If not, it's hard to see how landing hard on the mains should break something in the nose, unless you landed hard enough to wrinkle the firewall.

Don't waste time beating yourself up until you know all the facts. Then, and only then, you should beat yourself up for the minimum required.

And be like the monks in Monty Python... chant a little, then whack yourself in the head with a heavy book.

 

[tonycondon]

it was a flat landing tim. im not beating myself up about this, just trying to explore what else i couldve done. like i said trying to walk away with as much perspective as i can.

 

[ApacheBob]

I still think that unless the prop was horizontal (only a two-blade?) you were looking at a mandatory inspection anyway, and a new prop. So I think the chances of you saving any significant amount of money by shutting down the engine were pretty close to nil.

Be glad it wasn't a twin!

I am glad that you are okay. Some have already said this better, but I think that you did as well as you could have. If you had been monkeying around with all the secondary ideas, you may not have done such a smooth job on the important stuff.
This should make for good learning at the Ames fly-in. I hope to see you there.
ApacheBob

 

[tonycondon]

cant wait bob. good point, i certainly would have only considered using the guy in the right seat to pull mixture. getting distracted with the key has the potential to totally screw the pooch.

 

[bkreager]

Can't add much more to what has been said, I think you did good. There's really not much more you can do in that situation, you made a good plan and executed it. As for motivating the student, I would make sure he gets back up in the air soon, spending time on the ground thinking about it won't be good for him. Hopefully he'll be able to use it as a learning experience and not dwell on it.

 

[ScottM]

The only think I think I would have done in addition to what you did was to pump the handle a few times. In the Cessnas if you have no hydraulic pressure your wheels will not go down. But with the partial deployment you must have had some pressure. It would have been worth trying. If there was no pressure the handle would not have offered resistance but you have had just enought to finish the extension. But if the problem with the gear was something bent you might have had a SLIM chance to push past that with hand presure.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

thankyouthankyouthankyou for not involving a some guy in a convertible, or standing on a flatbed trailer at 80mph in your incident!

 

[tonycondon]

your welcome dave. i dont think the problem was a lack of pressure scott, but you make a good point. wouldve been slim though.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not much you can do about material failure -- it happens, and all you can do is follow the book and make the safest landing possible with what you've got. I'm pleased to see you didn't try one of those "save the engine" deals where folks try to kill the engine before landing so they don't damage it -- and then come up 10 feet short of the runway and total the plane. All in all, a good job well done dealing with an emergency.

 

[Everskyward]

Tony, I can empathize with you because I made the same decision not to try to shut the engines down before landing in a similar situation. The only difference was that I knew for sure the nosegear was going to collapse because the tower said it was trailing back at a 45 degree angle. I had the person in the right seat try to get the mixtures back to idle cutoff after we touched down but I'm not sure how well that worked. In any case, when the engines were torn down and inspected they didn't find any internal damage.

People will ask you why you did or didn't do this or that and you may ask yourself the same questions. But you did what you did and you both walked away so everything turned out fine. I wouldn't spend a whole lot of energy second-guessing yourself.

 

[wby0nder]

My mechanic told me "you can sit around and second guess yourself all day but when the brown stuff is running down your legs you dont consider everything"

Ah that's classic! Made me laugh out loud! That's Beaver the mechanic and he's a hell of a guy, a real gem.

Tony, you should tell folks some of the great wisdom from Dr Mike on this too.
MM

 

[Diana]

People will ask you why you did or didn't do this or that and you may ask yourself the same questions.

This happened after I wrecked the Texas Taildragger. People asked me why I didn't do certain things. Like, why didn't I turn things off before I hit the ditch? Huh? It was only 30 feet from the runway. That would be...one potato, two potato (oh ****!), three potato.....BAMMMMM!

But you did what you did and you both walked away so everything turned out fine. I wouldn't spend a whole lot of energy second-guessing yourself.

I agree. It's natural for us to try to analyze things like this so that we do better if it should happen again. I don't think that you could have done anything any better than you did. You did good Tony.

 

[cwyckham]

I think you did a great job, Tony. I'd fly with you any day.

Barry Schiff has an excellent article on gear up landings in Proficient Pilot Volume 2 where he addresses the nose gear only failure (excellent books, by the way, I've got the box set). I'm afraid that your piloting skill has masked how serious an emergency this could have been. I'd hate for less skilled pilots such as myself to walk away from this thinking that it's no big deal because Tony greased her in. There's a few small things that he suggests that I thought were worth bringing up:
- You say that you held back pressure for as long as possible until the nose came down. I suspect that due to your experience, you were actually able to tell that the nose was going to come down and then let it down gently. If you hold back pressure to the bitter end, it can come down hard and do much more damage.
- The biggest danger is that instead of greasing it like you did, you land a bit harder like I do. This could result in a sudden nose down pitch and the nose hitting much earlier (and therefore faster) than you'd want. Landing with flaps up makes it easier to counter this nose down pitching on touchdown.
- Once I've had a failure, I could care less about saving the engine from a teardown. However, there's another reason to secure the engine. If you'd cocked up the landing and buried the nose at touchdown speed, you could have made a bit of a mess. Having a secured engine with the selector and master off would reduce a chance of fire. You'd only want to do this once the landing is assured, but if you aimed part way up the very long runway, you can be pretty sure you'll make it. The drawback of this is that you can't use a bit of power to cushion the landing, but I think that a slight increase in the chances of burrowing the nose may be offset by the much lower chance of fire if you do borrow it.

One more thought I had was about your comments on why you chose not to divert and not to call out the trucks. You said that there were no trucks where you are and you stayed at your field because the runway was long and your mechanic was there. You have a lot more experience than I do, so perhaps you knew that this was going to be a non-event. However, if it were me, I'd want to divert somewhere with trucks. That way if I cock it up and end up in a flaming heap, somebody can save my butt. If a big airport with trucks is out of reach, I'd at least want to call somebody on the ground to be there with a pick-up truck, an axe, a fire extinguisher, a first aid kit, and half a dozen big guys to haul me out. If it ends up being no big deal, I'll buy them all a beer for their trouble. If they have to haul my sorry butt out of the wreck, they get two beers.

I hope you don't feel like I'm heaping on criticism, I think you did a great job. I can only hope that I handle my first emergency as well as you handled this one.

Chris

 

[Bill]

The only thing you can do in the Cessna is try to put the gear down and if it wont go down it wont go down.

I'm sure you tried manually pumping it down, right?

 

[woodstock]

I'm just glad you both were ok.

I guess I'm not going to buy a retractable gear airplane.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Tony:

It's great to go back an analyze how you did things, but the most important things were done well! You got down safely; no personal injury; all walked away. On top of that, you did what you could to not close down the runway and put the nose down as lightly as possible.

Try to be happy with what you did. One can be too self critical. (Ask me how I know <g>.)

I would hope to do as well as you did in that situation.

Best,

Dave

 

[tonycondon]

Tony, you should tell folks some of the great wisdom from Dr Mike on this too.
MM

Well the first thing he told me was "Congratulations!" I told him the engine only had about 250 hrs on it since a major overhaul, he replied "Probably needed another one anyway" Im drawing a blank on some of his other comments, but they all about made me die laughing. It was nice to be able to laugh it off.

I'm afraid that your piloting skill has masked how serious an emergency this could have been. I'd hate for less skilled pilots such as myself to walk away from this thinking that it's no big deal because Tony greased her in.

I agree I wouldnt want people using this example to get too complacent about it. That said I think that when you are in a situation where you REALLY need to make a good soft field landing, or short field or whatever, you will find that your training hasnt left you and you will do fine. But knowing your own limitations is very important in this type of situation.

- You say that you held back pressure for as long as possible until the nose came down. I suspect that due to your experience, you were actually able to tell that the nose was going to come down and then let it down gently. If you hold back pressure to the bitter end, it can come down hard and do much more damage.

True, I did make sure to set it down as softly and at as slow of a speed as possible. soft to minimize the possibility of collapse if it was hanging by a thread. slow to minimize sliding/spinning/flipping etc. after it did collapse.

- The biggest danger is that instead of greasing it like you did, you land a bit harder like I do. This could result in a sudden nose down pitch and the nose hitting much earlier (and therefore faster) than you'd want. Landing with flaps up makes it easier to counter this nose down pitching on touchdown.

landing with flaps also makes for a faster touchdown. especially in the 182RG with 40deg flaps and some power, you can get it really slow. dont get down on yourself too bad here chris about your lack of experience and (supposedly) poor technique. I did a soft field landing to the same skill level i expect out of my private students.

- Once I've had a failure, I could care less about saving the engine from a teardown. However, there's another reason to secure the engine. If you'd cocked up the landing and buried the nose at touchdown speed, you could have made a bit of a mess. Having a secured engine with the selector and master off would reduce a chance of fire. You'd only want to do this once the landing is assured, but if you aimed part way up the very long runway, you can be pretty sure you'll make it. The drawback of this is that you can't use a bit of power to cushion the landing, but I think that a slight increase in the chances of burrowing the nose may be offset by the much lower chance of fire if you do borrow it.

agree on engine. agree that a collapse at high speed wouldnt have been any fun. as soon as we stopped sliding we secured everything with fuel/mixture and key off. then got out. we didnt really waste unneccesary time inside. i wasnt oblivious to the possibility of a post collapse fire. landing with power on was a must have. you will find when you move up to the heavier singles that the only way to consistently make smooth landings is to use some power. it takes extremely good energy management and timing to do it power off.

One more thought I had was about your comments on why you chose not to divert and not to call out the trucks. You said that there were no trucks where you are and you stayed at your field because the runway was long and your mechanic was there. You have a lot more experience than I do, so perhaps you knew that this was going to be a non-event. However, if it were me, I'd want to divert somewhere with trucks. That way if I cock it up and end up in a flaming heap, somebody can save my butt. If a big airport with trucks is out of reach, I'd at least want to call somebody on the ground to be there with a pick-up truck, an axe, a fire extinguisher, a first aid kit, and half a dozen big guys to haul me out. If it ends up being no big deal, I'll buy them all a beer for their trouble. If they have to haul my sorry butt out of the wreck, they get two beers.

none of my previous experience told me that this was going to be a non event. in fact the only way that i couldve expected that is if i had had this happen before and regularly practiced this scenario. I did know that I had control over several factors that would make it either a safe or unsafe outcome. a soft landing with a smooth nose touchdown and slowest possible speed all around, with absolutely flawless directional control were top on my list. that way it would not slide far and it would slide straight. I would never doubt anyone elses decision to go to the local towered airport with emergency equipment, in fact, I would give them a big pat on the back.

I hope you don't feel like I'm heaping on criticism, I think you did a great job. I can only hope that I handle my first emergency as well as you handled this one.

dont feel that way at all. this is exactly why i posted the story. question my judgement, ask me the hard questions. i certainly didnt do it for everyone to tell me "good job!"

I'm sure you tried manually pumping it down, right?

Actually, no Bill. I didnt. Like scott said above, the odds of a manual extension pushing it a little further than the regular system is slim to none. In the cessna's the manual pump is pretty much only useful for when you lose the hydraulic pump by either pump, motor, or electrical failure. If you lose the hydraulic fluid you are SOL. I feel that if the electrical/hydraulic pump wont do the job then the manual pump wouldnt either. Unfortunately Cessna didnt make their system dirt simple like Piper, so that you just relieve the pressure and let gravity do the rest. I suspect this had somethign to do with the way the gear has to articulate to retract and extend. It sure is ugly to watch from outside.

I guess I'm not going to buy a retractable gear airplane.

Good Golly why not!? You have to realize that these failures are not anywhere near common. By far the most common gear failure is the pilot forgetting to put it down! Also, this airplane was used in training and the gear had thousands and thousands of landings and even more extend/retract cycles on it. Dont let my one experience shy you away from owning a fast and economic airplane.

Dave, I am pretty happy with my experience really. Just wanted to post for others to learn and for me to get some more perspectives. Most of the replies around the airport have been of the "holy smokes, good work" nature which is fine and dandy but it is nice to have some people play devils advocate and say "why didnt you do this or that?"

 

[ScottM]

I guess I'm not going to buy a retractable gear airplane.

What happened to Tony was rare. Not unheard of but rare. When we know for sure what caused his gear problem we will better understand his particular failure. But for the most part, gear up landings are from pilots forgetting to put the gear down not mechanical failures.

I have under 100 hours of retract time but I still love that feeling of take off where you mental checklist is:
airspeed alive
rotate
positive rate
no more usefull runway
GEAR UP!!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Scott:

Mechanical failure of the gear is rare, but does happen even with three greens showing. Friend in a Baron (55) had his nose gear collapsed two years ago after landing with three greens showing. It turned out to be rod end bearings and one could argue more aggressive preventive maintence could have caught it, but it didn't and he slid in thinking everything was fine. No fire and he kept in on the runway, but something we should all keep in the back of our minds.

Best,

Dave

 

[TMetzinger]

Elizabeth, Gear system failures of the type Tony encountered are fairly uncommon, normally there's either a problem with the power system for raising/lowering the gear (and there are general backups for that issue), or a problem with the protein system for raising/lowering the gear (the pilot). You can have similar problems with fixed gear - a locked brake or flat tire can make controlling the airplane during landing a challenge.

I've witnessed several landings with gear up, and one with one main gear leg unlocked. Never seen a fire or the airplane become a tumbling mass of metal - even with the wobbly main the pilot held up the wing until it stopped flying, and then the airplane tipped and did a single spin - an interesting ride, no doubt, but nothing was required except jacking up the wing, manually locking the gear, and towing to maintenance.

Depending on the aircraft (Mooney's for instance have all gear mechanically interlocked so that it's either all down or none, while Trinidads have independent gear), the failure modes vary. Knowing your aircraft is the best defense against surprises. Minimizing your energy is the best defense against injury. Tony, your use of full flaps was right on in this respect. Again, the airplane exists to get you back to earth safely. If the airplane "dies" doing that job, it's still a success.

I do like the idea of having trucks standing by if there's a risk of fire or loss of control on the ground - I'm going to add that to my generic emergency landing checklist - "Evaluate need for fire/rescue at airport". The nice thing is that if the airplane is flying and you've got fuel, you can wait for the local FD to arrive before you try the landing.