Bent Airplane *Long*

Dave Siciliano said:
Scott:

Mechanical failure of the gear is rare, but does happen even with three greens showing. Friend in a Baron (55) had his nose gear collapsed two years ago after landing with three greens showing. It turned out to be rod end bearings and one could argue more aggressive preventive maintence could have caught it, but it didn't and he slid in thinking everything was fine. No fire and he kept in on the runway, but something we should all keep in the back of our minds.

Best,

Dave
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Yeah I know it does. The C172RG I sometime fly down in Florida had green on a gear failure. The nose gear got bent coming up and never gave a gear up sign. They put it back down got a green (on the RG only one light and it is on the nose gear) and landed with the nose gear twisted at about 45 degree angle. Plane want to pull to that side but they used braking to stay on the nice wide runway and ended up just wrecking the tire.
 
It would be interesting to know the percentages between mechanical gear failures and the "oops I forgot" variety. I know certain models are much more succeptible than others.
 
Everskyward said:
It would be interesting to know the percentages between mechanical gear failures and the "oops I forgot" variety. I know certain models are much more succeptible than others.
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yes it would.
My guess is 1 of the former to 99 of the latter.
I read once that there is about one a week of those oopsies in GA.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
yes it would.
My guess is 1 of the former to 99 of the latter.
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I think the percentage is much higher than that for mechanical problems. I only base that on my general feeling that the ones I've heard about are about half and half. Of course people are much more likely to talk about a mechanical failure than an oops...
 
GOOD NEWS!

Just talked to the mechanic, they got the nose gear torn apart. my favorite quote of the week now is:

"It was an accident waiting to happen, just happened to let loose on you and Cody"

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
that feels nice

Immediately called student, he was there yesterday when they took it apart. Hes back reenergized, going to finish up the ground in the next couple weeks and then do part of his checkride ina 172. then when the 182rg is back will do takeoffs and landings.

I guess the lock pins had been rubbing for quite some time, were broken and just finally gave out. This doesnt explain much i know, but I will take a look at it tomorrow and report back.
 
smigaldi said:
The nose gear got bent coming up and never gave a gear up sign. They put it back down got a green (on the RG only one light and it is on the nose gear) and
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There is only one light, but there are three switches (one on each gear)that must be "made" before the green light turns on. Therefore both mains and the nose gear have to be down and locked before you get the light showing the gear is down.
 
NC Pilot said:
There is only one light, but there are three switches (one on each gear)that must be "made" before the green light turns on. Therefore both mains and the nose gear have to be down and locked before you get the light showing the gear is down.
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Hmm I'll have to look at the diagram again. I had though that there was only a switch for the nose gear. Where do the main gear switches reside? I can't recall seeing them from the outside of the plane.
 
woodstock said:
I guess I'm not going to buy a retractable gear airplane.
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If I were you, I'd make that "not going to buy a retractable gear airplane for a trainer". Excluding the propensity to leave the gear up when landing or to raise it while still on the ground, most retracts are pretty darn reliable. With something like 2500 hrs in retracts, I've only had it fail to go down once (bad motor) and the manual extension worked fine. But from what I've seen, the training environment is very hard on retracts and the rate of incidents is likely quite a bit higher than in the owner flown arena.
 
smigaldi said:
Hmm I'll have to look at the diagram again. I had though that there was only a switch for the nose gear. Where do the main gear switches reside? I can't recall seeing them from the outside of the plane.
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For the maingear the uplock switches reside on brackets mounted to the bulkhead to the rear of the gear opening and the downlock switches are mounted on the bulkhead forging.

Keep in mind I am refering to the service manual for the 182 RG, not the 172 RG, but the landing gear for the 82 RG's were derived from the 172 RG design.

From a practical point of view, it just would not make sense to have a retract where you have no indication of down and locked for the main gears.
 
tonycondon said:
like looking out the windows? ;)
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That is what I was taught for both the 172 and 182 RGs. I just do not ever recall seeing any switched on the outside of the airframe for the main gear. I know right where it is on the nose though. That is why I was asking. It does make sense. to know that they are locked and not just dangling.
 
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tonycondon said:
like looking out the windows? ;)
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It's not easy to see both sides of the main gears if you are flying solo and don't have a gear mirror....:yes:
 
smigaldi said:
That is what I was taught for both the 172 and 182 RGs. I just do not ever recall seeing any switched on teh outside of the airframe for the main gear. I know right wher eit is on the nose though. That is why I was asking. It does make sense. to know that they are locked and not just dangling.
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The switches are located in the well where the gear actuators are on the Cessna RG's. Next time you see one crawl around under the plane and it should be obvious.

Maybe I should take some photo's this weekend of my main gear switches...:dunno:
 
This isn't exactly pertinant, but did you hear about the recent Cheyenne crash? There was an L-39 or something like that that had an unsafe gear indication. They flew near a Cheyenne for a look-see (if I understand the story). But the Cheyenne bought it.
I do not remember all the details. But gear problems can end up with much worse outcomes.
ApacheBob
 
sounds a lot like the heinz crash. senator heinz is riding in an aerostar and it has a gear problem. a helicopter in the area pulls up along side to check it out. dissimilar aircraft in an unbriefed formation flight leads to a mid air and everyone dies. his wife theresa sues, marries john kerry and spills ketchup on her shirt.
 
According to local reports, the Cheyenne was on a photo shoot of the MiG-21 when it crashed, with 5 on board.

http://abc15.com/news/index.asp?did=30577

"The MiG-21 fighter jet, carrying only its pilot, landed safely after radioing to say the Piper had disappeared after flying beneath his jet to see whether there was a problem with a landing gear door."

Also, the tower reported seeing smoke/vapor trailing from the Cheyenne during climbout.

An ATC transcript available at http://www.knxv.com/news/index.asp?did=30595

ApacheBob said:
This isn't exactly pertinant, but did you hear about the recent Cheyenne crash? There was an L-39 or something like that that had an unsafe gear indication. They flew near a Cheyenne for a look-see (if I understand the story). But the Cheyenne bought it.
I do not remember all the details. But gear problems can end up with much worse outcomes.
ApacheBob
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well i checked out the issue today. there is a sleeve around the actuator arm that had been rubbing on the lock down pins when the gear locked. only one side of the down lock pins had been rubbing, and it is obvious it had been doing it for quite some time. for some reason on my flight the other down lock pin decided to ride right next to the actuator arm too, when they both hit the sleeve, it jammed. who knows how long the thing had been going like that. mechanic thought we might have been able to cycle it a few more times and get lucky but it just wouldve failed for the next guy.
 
NC Pilot said:
The switches are located in the well where the gear actuators are on the Cessna RG's. Next time you see one crawl around under the plane and it should be obvious.

Maybe I should take some photo's this weekend of my main gear switches...:dunno:
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Here are photo's of the main gear up lock and gear down lock switches on my 182RG. Should be the same on a 172RG.
 

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tonycondon said:
well i checked out the issue today. there is a sleeve around the actuator arm that had been rubbing on the lock down pins when the gear locked. only one side of the down lock pins had been rubbing, and it is obvious it had been doing it for quite some time. for some reason on my flight the other down lock pin decided to ride right next to the actuator arm too, when they both hit the sleeve, it jammed. who knows how long the thing had been going like that. mechanic thought we might have been able to cycle it a few more times and get lucky but it just wouldve failed for the next guy.
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Told ya!:yes:
 
tonycondon said:
Well it finally happened. Bent my first airplane on Sunday. Posting here as fallout from insurance and FAA is over, no worries from either, so I would like you all to learn from me and critique my decision making. Challenge my thinking, you wont offend me!
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You did fine. You could have saved the prop & engine teardown by going LCO as soon as the mains touched so the engine could stop while you were still holding the nose up, but heck, they might get an engine overhaul on the insurance company dime. BTW, I didn't see you mention it, but did you try to use the handle to pump the gear the last bit to lock?
 
FlyNE said:
I would just be hoping like hell that the insurance company doesn't decide to subrogate. Does your FBO have a no subrogation clause?
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They won't, subrogation is a rarely used clause in the poilicy in something like this. It's typically used to go after third parties.
 
Tony,
Let me add to the list of "Attaboys" for a job well done: didn't get rattled, devised a plan and executed it. When the "perversity of the universe" gremlins are huntin' ya, they'll find a way to ding you somehow, and it sounds like you minimized the damage. And, NEXT TIME you can spend some neurons on pulling the mixture after touch-down. That's what learning is about, as I'm sure you told the trainee.
As a fairly recent addition to the SSA ranks, I am sure that it was the glider portion of your background that let you bring it in so smoothly. I used to think I could fly an aircraft, until I had to land it right the first time. Way to go.
. And let your trainee know that this was a rare and wonderful opportunity to learn a great lesson, with no one getting hurt. That is not always the case. He can take this experience to a lot of future RG pilots, and think of the additional safety in that training.

:cheerswine:
 
actually my glider training really didnt do much for me here. and i didnt HAVE to land it right the first time because i didnt shut down the engine. I did a soft field landing to private pilot standards, any pilot on this board shouldve been able to do the same.

henning, i think i said it in a reply to bills post but i didnt use the hand pump. the failure was both down lock pins were broken and jammed in the locking mechanism. there is a sleeve around the extending arm that they were hung up on.

bruce - Cessna 182RG
 
Well the crankshaft came back from magnafluxing with a clean bill of health. Engine is reassembled by now I think, most parts are in. Actually wont be too long until its up in the air again!
 
and it looks like I'm famous. Somehow the FAA guy who looked at the plane decided that the damage was "substantial" Im not sure how he figured this, as the damage was limited to the cowling, landing gear doors, and engine. Doesnt sound like:

NTSB Part 830 said:
damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.
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to me but oh well. I guess if they think its an accident then its an accident. Who cares about what the regulations read...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CHI07LA011&rpt=p
 
tonycondon said:
NTSB Factual report is out (finally!)

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CHI07LA011&rpt=fa
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So Tony, what were you doing giving instruction to a student in the rear seat?:rofl:

Seat Occupied: Rear
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Good thing the propeller was only on an SB and not an AD, or they might have come after you for not having performed a proper airworthiness check, since that would have been in the logbooks! :D
The director of maintenance also reported that the airplane propeller (McCauley B2D34C218-13) accumulated a total time of 3,423.6 hours since last overhaul. McCauley Propeller Systems service bulletin (SB) 137W, states in part the overhaul frequency of B2D34C218 model propellers to be 2,000 hours or 72 calendar months, whichever occurs first.
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Yuck.. Sounds like they're trying to pin it on maint. Any negative ju-ju at Hap's b/c of this? I'm guessing not, but never can tell....
 
I like the quote that maintenance "had to get a little rough with it." I wonder who gave 'em that one :). You have a copy of this hanging up on your fridge?
 
Chris - no i dont think any negative ju-ju out of the ordeal. the Feds and Hap's knew as soon as they looked at it over a year ago that it was a maintenance issue.

Grant - I never noticed the rear seat thing lol

Matt - My understanding is the pins had a nice coat of dirt/oil/grease that was holding them securely in place. which is why only after the pins were removed and cleaned could they tell that they were loose in the housing.
 
Good job, and how nice, all told, to have such a benign "first bending"... I hope I will be as lucky (not expecting to get away with never making an "abnormal" landing).
I can't find anything to improve on other than maybe being more wary next time of letting a student "having an off day" make more than one poor arrival in a Cessna RG ('specially a trainer).
Of course it may have happened after a series of perfect landings, but...you know what I mean... you have gained much insight from this incident; I humbly suggest you include that.
 
i guess we all have our definition of 'benign' engine teardown and rebuilding the cowling may or may not fall into that :D

The pins had been broken for a while, but the dirt/grease/oil etc was holding them in place from wiggling free. the rough landings simply knocked one of them loose to allow them to jam. I am actually quite happy that it decided to let loose when I was in the airplane vs. just a normal renter. thanks though!
 
rottydaddy said:
other than maybe being more wary next time of letting a student "having an off day" make more than one poor arrival in a Cessna RG ('specially a trainer).
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It's pretty much impossible to teach without letting someone make mistakes. A good CFI will only take over to prevent an airplane from getting bent. The landings had nothing to do with the failure. Tony did exactly what a good instructor does.

Even if you are a really good instructor there is a chance of an airplane getting bent. It's training, **** happens, and the FAA knows this as well. IMO neither pilot was at fault for this incident. Fault falls more in the realm of maintenance and fatigue.
 
agreed ..about the only time I will grab the controls is an impending tail strike, nose wheel landing, or if the student drifts completely off the runway... and thankfully Iv'e only had to do it less than a handfull of times in 380 hrs of dual given...Tony nor the student did anything wrong.
 
I'd like to see a diagram so I can visualize this "downlink" part and how the nosegear assembly works on a R182-RG. Got one?
 
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