Avgas price too good to be true

Makes me wish I had a Piper Mojave and a hangar at a nearby airport full of empty 55 gal drums. :D
 
Heard a couple guys talking today, their theory was that the fuel/marketing angle was only part of the equation. The other part was to drive awareness of the Redbird facility with their flight training program, and to gain interest as a reliever airport for the Austin/San Antonio areas. Might be some truth there.
 
It just really grinds my gears that they ended it early.
 
FWIW, I'll go there again, based not upon the fuel promotion (though it was a nice boonie), but rather, because they have given me exceptional service every time I have gone there.

Of course, the fact that my son is going to college there helps...
 
SCCutler said:
FWIW, I'll go there again, based not upon the fuel promotion (though it was a nice boonie), but rather, because they have given me exceptional service every time I have gone there.

Of course, the fact that my son is going to college there helps...
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I go there once or twice a month, my wife's sister lives about 4 minutes from the field. I normally buy fuel at the self-serve pump at Berry Aviation though, because I'm a tightwad pilot! :D
 
DavidWhite said:
I am quite cross that they ended it before I could go down there and get some.
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DavidWhite said:
Yeah, it definitely doesn't rub me the right way.
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DavidWhite said:
It just really grinds my gears that they ended it early.
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Alas, more proof that life isn't fair. Great for the folks who got in on the deal. It's kind of like the mispriced $10 airfares to Hawaii or wherever that pop up every once in a while. By the time you hear about it, the deal is gone.
 
Brad Z said:
Alas, more proof that life isn't fair. Great for the folks who got in on the deal. It's kind of like the mispriced $10 airfares to Hawaii or wherever that pop up every once in a while. By the time you hear about it, the deal is gone.
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A more apt comparison would be advertising $10 airfares to Hawaii for a predetermined amount of time, and then saying that they had too many reservations so they are canceling the rest.

It's retarded.
 
I can't really add value to the conversation of their intent, but I did take on 60 gallons Sunday evening... It took almost two hours. The weather was fantastic and they have the best lawn of any FBO I've visited. I'll be back at least once more before the 15th. I'll probably swing by after that just based on the great service that I received when they were at their busiest...

I'll leave with this thought; don't ***** about free ice cream.... I witnessed a few people who were upset at the time it took for them to get their tanks filled. If you didn't think that everyone with an airplane in a 100 mile radius was going to show up for this on a beautiful flying day then shame on you. You should have at least figured it out when you landed and saw 75 planes parked waiting on fuel. The more appropriate response should be one of gratitude that they decided to spur some activity by damn near giving the fuel away in return for a five minute conversation and possibly ending up on a mailing list.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Just last night, I got 60 gallons for my airplane at $3.45.

I'm okay with that.
 
DavidWhite said:
I am quite cross that they ended it before I could go down there and get some.
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They haven't ended it yet; they simply announced that they are going to end it early. The cheap gas is still available through the 15th.
 
DavidWhite said:
A more apt comparison would be advertising $10 airfares to Hawaii for a predetermined amount of time, and then saying that they had too many reservations so they are canceling the rest.

It's retarded.
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They're not taking anything away from anyone who already showed up and paid their money. They also set the shut-off date in the future, not the past. Those are big differences in your comparison.

I think your reaction to this is a little bit dramatic. In the grand scheme of things, a trip to San Marcos for cheap gas is hardly comparable to a discounted flight to Hawaii. I mean really...land your small plane on fumes and fill the tanks and you've, what...saved ~$200? Yeah, that's better than a kick in the teeth, but good gravy, compared to typical annual flight expenses that's not life-changing.

If it's that important to you, they gave you a week's warning the pump was going to shut off. Get down there and get some gas. But if it doesn't work out, oh shucks. Sheesh.

If that's the biggest gear-grinder in your life right now, stop and reflect that you've got a pretty fantastic life. :)
 
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...it'll be relatively quiet over there for the final few days...the weather is supposed to stink all weekend (as it has been down here for the last 3 weekends...can't complain down here about ANY rain though...).

I did my first long XC on Monday of this week (best flying day in MONTHS...was gorgeous!) since getting my PPL with a buddy of mine from KGTU out to Galveston then over to San Marcos for about 40 gallons before heading back up to KGTU (Georgetown). I don't think we waited more than a half-hour...wasn't that busy. They handed me an iPad to do a 5 minute web survey which was way more superficial than I thought I was going to get. We played on the sims for a bit, paid our bill and headed home.

As others mentioned, I think their experiment is flawed and I agree that they should have put a limit on the # of gallons per trip and extended the offer. Certainly would have introduced them to more people - not everyone can get loose during a 1 month period and while October usually has good VFR weather - it's been a little sketchy this year.

Anyway, it sure was fun paying $40 for a 3 hour trip. Wish we could do that more often...
 
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Some of the whining reminds me of the Louis CK bit about the guy that was ****ed that the WIFI on the airliner was out of service. "how quickly does the world owe you something that 10 minutes before, you didn't even know existed."

"everything's amazing, nobody's happy"
 
Not whining. Its as simple as "say what you'll do, do what you say". Why should I have any great deal of respect for any business that doesn't? Either they failed to plan, or fibbed up front. Either way won't make me a fan.

But I'm happy for guys who got the cheap fuel deal.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Not whining. Its as simple as "say what you'll do, do what you say". Why should I have any great deal of respect for any business that doesn't? Either they failed to plan, or fibbed up front. Either way won't make me a fan.

But I'm happy for guys who got the cheap fuel deal.
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Have you ever owned a business?
 
Can't make everyone happy. With the stopping early it will make some people happy as they now have something to b complain about. How many complaints from pilots that where never going to take advantage of the promotion?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I have, and I currently do. What's your point?
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I was gathering information.

When I read the Avweb article it was pretty clear why they shut it down early. To me it doesn't make any sense for it to continue further. I see three main points:

1. - Miscalculated demand. Expected (and probably budgeted for) 8 times demand. Got 30 times the demand. Hit their monthly expectations after 7 days. My math says they expected 32,000 gallons and were trending to 120,000 gallons.

2. - Health & Safety issues - Employees overworked and beginning to complain of sore limbs and inability to work faster. The last thing an operating business needs is a workers comp claim, or claims, and considering these employees are handling flammable substances in aircraft, it isn't likely that contractors/temp help could be brought in to help.

3. - Supply issues - If you can't get the product, you can't supply your customers or all the folks flying in. If I'm managing that FBO, you can darn sure bet, I'm going to make sure there is fuel available for the customers that will be there next month, and the month after that.

After reading that article, even considering the likelihood that it was spun and slanted in their favor, the only reasonable decision was to end the promotion. Personally, I'd be more likely to stop doing business with an entity that didn't make that decison.

My guess, and only a guess, is after 7 days they waited a few days to see if demand slowed down so they could finish out the month. Apparently that didn't happen, so they were left with few alternatives.

You can feel however you want, but your "do what you say" comment struck me as the type of complaining that I hear every time I walk past the returns counter at wally world.

I see several reasons why "doing what you say" isn't always possible, nor the correct decision. But that's just me. Usually I'm the cynical old man. Being on this side of the fence is a new experience for me.
 
Pretty much everything said above is the product of poor planning, up to and including personnel issues. If there were any question of fulfillment, they had every right to make public the possibility of cancelling the promotion at any time. It was amateur hour to promote and publicize a definite time period, unless you can guarantee supply.

Once you break your word, everything else you promise is suspect. Everyone who has ever run a promotion of any kind knows the words "while supplies last" or another legitimate out.

In thirty years of business, I have always done as I said I would for a customer, or potential customer. Even at a loss if necessary. The first rule of business is never over promise and under deliver. It's called building repeat purchase loyalty.

Obviously they miscalculated, didn't run a worst case scenario and have contingencies in place.
 
Contracting with a company to do a job, and then the company not doing a job, yeah, that's pretty crappy.

Having a company say, "We're running a ridiculously crazy promotion all month long," then later saying, "Wow, that turned out to be even more ridiculous than our most ridiculous projections, so we're gonna run it another week and then wind it down early" is, in my mind, an entirely different kettle of fish.

So they didn't equivocate at the beginning and leave themselves an out, that's your beef? If they'd said "While supplies last" on Oct 1, that would have been okay, but "Whoops, we screwed up, so we're only running it one more week" on Oct 7 is an unforgivable sin?

Really??

Good grief.
 
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And what's more, if Wal-Mart or any other retailer offers a money back, no questions asked return policy, than yes, the people you refer to with such thinly veiled disdain have every right to complain. If a promise made, it should be kept. If doing what you say isn't always possible, you haven't done enough thinking before you've said it.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Pretty much everything said above is the product of poor planning, up to and including personnel issues. If there were any question of fulfillment, they had every right to make public the possibility of cancelling the promotion at any time. It was amateur hour to promote and publicize a definite time period, unless you can guarantee supply.

Once you break your word, everything else you promise is suspect. Everyone who has ever run a promotion of any kind knows the words "while supplies last" or another legitimate out.

In thirty years of business, I have always done as I said I would for a customer, or potential customer. Even at a loss if necessary. The first rule of business is never over promise and under deliver. It's called building repeat purchase loyalty.

Obviously they miscalculated, didn't run a worst case scenario and have contingencies in place.
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Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. I don't think there is enough information to arrive at that conclusion.

That being said, you appear to live in a fairly black and white world and you define what's black and what's not. The older I get, the more gray my world gets.

All of us make mistakes. To me, what we do about them says more about our character than "keeping their word". I'm more likely to continue to do business with someone who fixes a problem than refuses to admit they have one. And I'm certainly not doing further business with the person who is incapable of seeing that an honest error was made and still thinking that they have a "right" to profit from that mistake. But that's just me, YMMV.
 
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Jim_R said:
Contracting with a company to do a job, and then the company not doing a job, yeah, that's pretty crappy.

Having a company say, "We're running a ridiculously crazy promotion all month long," then later saying, "Wow, that turned out to be even more ridiculous than our most ridiculous projections, so we're gonna run it another week and then wind it down early" is, in my mind, an entirely different kettle of fish.

So they didn't equivocate at the beginning and leave themselves an out, that's your beef? If they'd said "While supplies last" on Oct 1, that would have been okay, but "Whoops, we screwed up, so we're only running it one more week" on Oct 7 is an unforgivable sin?

Really??

Good grief.
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Where did I say it was an unforgivable sin? I didn't say they were bad people. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do business. This was the wrong way. Let me put it to you this way. If you were in a position to do a co- promotion with them in the future, would you let them run it?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
If doing what you say isn't always possible, you haven't done enough thinking before you've said it.
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You know, you guys are right. One time, my mom promised to take me to get ice cream, but it turns out she forgot that my sister had a doctor's appointment.

I never got my ice cream.

I never realized until today that what she'd done to me was unforgivable. I'd call her up and give her a piece of my mind, but that would violate the vow I just took to never talk to her again.
 
Jim_R said:
You know, you guys are right. One time, my mom promised to take me to get ice cream, but it turns out she forgot that my sister had a doctor's appointment.

I never got my ice cream.

I never realized until today that what she'd done to me was unforgivable. I'd call her up and give her a piece of my mind, but that would violate the vow I just took to never talk to her again.
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That b****.
 
retailguy said:
All of us make mistakes. To me, what we do about them says more about our character than "keeping their word". I'm more likely to continue to do business with someone who fixes a problem than refuses to admit they have one. And I'm certainly not doing further business with the person who is incapable of seeing that an honest error was made and still thinking that they have a "right" to profit from that mistake. But that's just me, YMMV.
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I understand and appreciate your point of view, and actually agree with you. In my early career I was in the ad agency business. I sat through many many meetings with sleazy clients that intentionally wanted to promise things they knew they could never deliver, for publicity or other reasons. So maybe that colors my point of view just a bit. There are people like that who believe it's a legitimate way to do business. I'm just not one of them. Nor am I accusing the Redbird of being one of them. But it is why I believe the i's should be dotted and the t's crossed.
 
Jim_R said:
You know, you guys are right. One time, my mom promised to take me to get ice cream, but it turns out she forgot that my sister had a doctor's appointment.

I never got my ice cream.

I never realized until today that what she'd done to me was unforgivable. I'd call her up and give her a piece of my mind, but that would violate the vow I just took to never talk to her again.
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It's a shame it's left such an emotional scar.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Where did I say it was an unforgivable sin? I didn't say they were bad people. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do business. This was the wrong way. Let me put it to you this way. If you were in a position to do a co- promotion with them in the future, would you let them run it?
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I think they tried to do something unprecedented. Who has ever tried to sell avgas at 1/5 the going rate? There was no way to know, with absolute certainty, what the demand would be. I think they made a good-faith effort to prepare for the increased demand. I think they made a huge mistake.

Being a person who has made huge, humiliating mistakes in my life, I can empathize a little.

I have never done a "co-promotion" with anyone for anything, and would have no idea how to go about such a thing.

But I have seen other businesses offer promotions, then get surprised by the response and have to backpedal, and handle the situation far more poorly than Redbird is.

I think Redbird is trying all sorts of crazy things. To be honest, I have no idea how they're making enough money to stay afloat. Their lobby is huge, they've got dozens of expensive simulators, their fleet is shiny and new, and I've never seen another place like it.

I hope that some of their crazy ideas are working for them. As a customer, it's a pleasant experience to do business with them, and I'd hate to see them close up shop. And I'm content to chalk this episode up as one of the crazier things Redbird's tried that didn't work out so well, and move on.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
But it is why I believe the i's should be dotted and the t's crossed.
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Look, I know it "sounds" like I'm bashing you. I promise you, I am not. In a perfect world, I agree with the above statement. But sometimes, you just can't predict what will happen. Other times you don't do a very good job. Which was it? Without more information I don't know.

But when a company gives an interview to a well known aviation publication and says they grossly underestimated demand, can't get enough product, to continue is "unmanageable" and "physically and economically unviable", I guess I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Further, I don't know what else they would need to say to take responsibility for it. And to top it off, they decided to continue another week with no added restrictions to give folks who wanted to come time to get there...
 
Chip Sylverne said:
If a promise made, it should be kept.
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Not only that, but they were specifically asked this at the beginning of the promotion by the press:

Are you going to run out of gas?

No!
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A clear and twice confirmed promise was made regarding this promotion that very likely had people changing travel plans and taking time off work to come down here.

It's bad business anyway you rationalize it. The fact that the supposed "Experiment" could have been run better by a junior high school student, only further discredits them. A history of "crazy ideas" as someone said... yet another one. Listen, I'm glad some got to take advantage of it... but I'm not going to trust or change my travel plans for this company. I need to trust my vendors.

And to those trying to equate this to someone getting mad that they didn't get their free ice cream... perhaps... as long as you realize the kid sulking in corner may have traveled 500 miles for that "free" ice cream after taking a week off work and booking a motel. That's pretty expensive "free" ice cream :eek:
 
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timwinters said:
Just last night, I got 60 gallons for my airplane at $3.45.
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MoGas or 100LL? That is about the price this promotion should have been priced at.... as we've never had $1/gal AvGas ever (adjusted for inflation). That's a tangible price for high octane gasoline if you factored out the ethanol subsidizes and used MBTE (or subsidized EBTE).

An experiment to provide useful data has to have realistic conditions. It's unlikely the eco-terrorists would back down from MBTE... or the FAA loosen their sphincter on MoGas STC's but it's in the realm of possible where as $1/gal never was.
 
I feel like I got really lucky on this one. I started another thread about flight schools because of this promotion. My plan was to buy a block of dry time in a twin and get my commercial multi done the later half of Oct. since I am traveling until then. I was calling around to various schools trying to work out this deal, even offering to pay in advance, with the notion that I would save a lot on avgas to get a rating that I otherwise don't need.

LUCKILY, the flight schools I called were so inept that they couldn't react to this request and get me committed to a program for the later half of October. Otherwise I would have been looking at spending more to get a rating I don't need away from home vs. just waiting or paying retail at a local school.

If this had happened and I was committed, YES I would have been super ****ed.
 
Jeff K said:
Not only that, but they were specifically asked this at the beginning of the promotion by the press:



A clear and twice confirmed promise was made regarding this promotion that very likely had people changing travel plans and taking time off work to come down here.

It's bad business anyway you rationalize it.
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Fair enough. I am not arguing it's good business, certainly.

And to those trying to equate this to someone getting mad that they didn't get their free ice cream... perhaps... as long as you realize the kid sulking in corner may have traveled 500 miles for that "free" ice cream after taking a week off work and booking a motel. That's pretty expensive "free" ice cream :eek:
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For anyone who made such plans, again, Redbird has given a week's notice of the change in plans. Aside from some disappointment and hassle, I seriously doubt anyone's going to lose money from Redbird's change...they simply won't get to take advantage of a once-in-a-lifetime fuel price.

GA flying plans are full of risks outside the pilot's control. Weather, mechanical airworthiness, and fuel prices are all subject to change.

Honestly, despite Redbird's claims to the contrary, who _didn't_ think there was a risk they'd shut down early? This thread is titled, "Too good to be true," and the post I quoted to wake up this thread was somebody giving 'em two weeks before they shut off the pumps.

Anyone who made expensive plans that only worked due to cheap gas should have recognized there was a risk there. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

At least Redbird has given them a week to change those plans instead of yanking the rug out with no warning.
 
An FBO tries to make flying a little cheaper for the 100LL crowd and has to end the experiment early?!

What a bunch of sleazy fools!!!

Don't they understand that you can only make money from jets? They don't even charge a ramp fee to keep the riff-raff out!

Stone them!!
 
Jim_R said:
For anyone who made such plans, again, Redbird has given a week's notice of the change in plans. Aside from some disappointment and hassle, I seriously doubt anyone's going to lose money from Redbird's change...
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Tell that to the guy who asked for time off work when his employer requires 2 or more weeks notice. Just because you are retired doesn't mean everyone else here is. We have families, jobs and obligations that require planning.

Honestly, despite Redbird's claims to the contrary, who _didn't_ think there was a risk they'd shut down early? This thread is titled, "Too good to be true," and the post I quoted to wake up this thread was somebody giving 'em two weeks before they shut off the pumps.
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And I can also find plenty of threads on the internet that say Obama isn't a citizen. That doesn't mean I don't check the source. My point was they not once, but twice stated emphatically that they wouldn't run out of gas and had that contingency covered. This was really stressed by Redbird.

To me it's pretty simple... you either keep your word or you don't.

Anyone who made expensive plans that only worked due to cheap gas should have recognized there was a risk there. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
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Is that the issue? This has to to with business ethics and nothing else to me. I myself need to get my ME commercial license. Was thinking of flying my instructor and myself down there. Decided not to because I didn't know Redbird to trust that they would keep their word.

Seems my concern was vindicated. I won't do business with people who intentionally jerk their customers around. It's doubtful I'll have need to go there... but if I do I will go out of my way to avoid redbird. I don't reward this behavior because it shows me a vendor I can't depend on.

At least Redbird has given them a week to change those plans instead of yanking the rug out with no warning.
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And if it was 2 hours notice I'm sure there would still be some here rationalizing that away as well.

Listen, you either get it or you don't. It isn't the lost savings or some kid in the corner sad that he didn't get the "free ice cream". It's doing what you say you are going to do. Ethics and the ability to count on someone.
 
I agree with Jeff. As I mentioned, I think they handled this poorly. Either say it's open until you sell 90,000 gallons or whatever or keep it open for a month like you said....do any different and you run the risk of ****ing off enough people that your social experiment / create a mailing list from a survey goes bad.

As someone else mentioned...and I have as well...the right way to handle this would be to either 1) give X number of gallons away per customer and then break even on the rest of the tank or, and this would have been what I would have done 2) sell it for a realistic price...like what MOGAS or something runs in the $3.50 a gallon range. You'd still get a bunch of folks coming through and you'd get a more accurate representation of how folks might travel given a more economical price...like, as much as it costs to run your car kind of a price.

I never understood why the whole 100LL AVGAS thing came to be once I got into aviation. Most planes are old and will run fine on 80/87, including mine and yet here we are paying $1 more than jet fuel and not a single airport/FBO that I know of carries anything but. Senseless...
 
Did someone really take non-cancelable vacation time just to fly to get cheap Aviation gasoline?
 
I talked to one of the Redbird guys at AOPA Summit today and, while I haven't read all of the new posts above, here's what I learned:

They intended for it to run all month, based on a projection of 8x normal volume (after verifying they could get up to 15x through their Avgas supplier). Their actual dispensing has been 30x normal volume, and this simply can't be sustained with the supply available in central Texas.

He said the ramp guys/fuelers have been busting their butts in the Texas sun... working VERY hard. I asked if the pilots arriving have at least been tipping the line guys, seeing as they are getting $1 fuel. He said only three people tipped the line guys in the first three days, so they put out a tip jar. $50 in three days.

Each pilot is asked to complete a five minute survey, including the kind of flying they generally do, what aviation magazines they read (they hope to focus their advertising efforts based on what they learn), etc.

I think the experiment proved one thing (based on tips). Pilots are cheap bastards.
 
Jeff K said:
Tell that to the guy who asked for time off work when his employer requires 2 or more weeks notice. Just because you are retired doesn't mean everyone else here is. We have families, jobs and obligations that require planning.
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I am not retired...I work hard to afford my aviation hobby, but my vacation is somewhat flexible. I do have friends who work at companies with policies like you describe. They have had to cancel vacation plans at the last minute for various reasons; it was generally not a big deal (to the company) and they didn't lose their vacation time. Still, I understand your point. Are there actually any folks in this position? Have they called Redbird to see if they'll make any concession for them?

For anyone else, then it still falls in the category of no ice cream in terms of actual "loss" incurred.

And I can also find plenty of threads on the internet that say Obama isn't a citizen. That doesn't mean I don't check the source. My point was they not once, but twice stated emphatically that they wouldn't run out of gas and had that contingency covered. This was really stressed by Redbird.

To me it's pretty simple... you either keep your word or you don't.

... This has to to with business ethics and nothing else to me. I myself need to get my ME commercial license. Was thinking of flying my instructor and myself down there. Decided not to because I didn't know Redbird to trust that they would keep their word.

Seems my concern was vindicated. I won't do business with people who intentionally jerk their customers around. It's doubtful I'll have need to go there... but if I do I will go out of my way to avoid redbird. I don't reward this behavior because it shows me a vendor I can't depend on.
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Reasonable people can agree to disagree. We don't disagree that this was a bad business choice. We only disagree on the degree. This was a crazy advertised special. Even you thought so, and hesitated to commit to it. In my opinion, this whole situation is very different from "normal" business. In your opinion, it's right up there with a legally binding signed contract. In my opinion, it was a crazy promotion and not surprising that it was unsustainable, and I'm not going to cut them out of my will for the mistake.

If we had a signed contract to do work for a given price, and then they screwed me....well, I'd be singing a different tune.

Listen, you either get it or you don't. It isn't the lost savings or some kid in the corner sad that he didn't get the "free ice cream". It's doing what you say you are going to do. Ethics and the ability to count on someone.
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I get it. Two differing opinions of reasonable people, is all.
 
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