I thought he wanted beer.
Atkins vs Keto
- Thread starter RyanB
- Start date
I thought he wanted beer.
focal_plane
Pre-takeoff checklist
I love carbs. Don't restrict them, within reason. Generally go low fat. 70 minutes hard cardio, 25 mins weight training 4-5 days per week. All around, works for me.
BrianNC
En-Route
This isn't exactly what you asked for but another facet of what you're talking about. Seeing the results of eating not just keto, but actually carnivore for years. I follow a Dr. on Instagram, Shawn Baker who is a carnivore. No carbs at all. All meat. As a matter of face he says in this post that he had 7 lbs of meat today. He has been carnivore for years. This is a post made today, where he had his calcium score done. So basically this is the 'negative' impact that years of only meat has had on him. I think many would say this is not possible of eating just meat for year with lots of fat. No clogged arteries, etc.
https://www.instagram.com/shawnbaker1967/
bflynn
Final Approach
Long term, Atkins is pretty easy if you eat at home because the long term diet is called just eat food. Nothing is really off the menu, it is just a question of portions and how much you can have given your body metabolism. Also, if you exercise a lot, your carb tolerance is higher, so you can get away with eating more of them.
What makes it hard at all is the American dietary obsession with carbs. If you ever eat out, it is nearly impossible or to find a dish that isn’t loaded with carbs in some way. I was in a restaurant today that put calorie counts on the menu and their serving of broccoli was listed at 240 calories.
What makes it hard at all is the American dietary obsession with carbs. If you ever eat out, it is nearly impossible or to find a dish that isn’t loaded with carbs in some way. I was in a restaurant today that put calorie counts on the menu and their serving of broccoli was listed at 240 calories.
focal_plane
Pre-takeoff checklist
Restaurants seem to like to dump fat/butter on otherwise healthy sounding things like broccoli. I usually ask for them sans toppings. vinegar works best. For me...
Whatever comes off the Sysco truck.
deonb
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I'm on Keto as well for the last few months - I've lost weight but there are other significant benefits that I also observed over that time:
a) MUCH higher energy and alertness during the day
b) I sleep better and longer than before
c) My A1C went from 6.3 to 5.6 in 3 months
d) Never hunger. Not even a little. On a 'balanced' diet I would get so hungry I can't sleep, think or work. On Keto I can easily go 24 hours without food without it bothering in the least.
a) MUCH higher energy and alertness during the day
b) I sleep better and longer than before
c) My A1C went from 6.3 to 5.6 in 3 months
d) Never hunger. Not even a little. On a 'balanced' diet I would get so hungry I can't sleep, think or work. On Keto I can easily go 24 hours without food without it bothering in the least.
Jared V
Pre-Flight
I'm really liking Keto and Intermittent fasting. Not really trying to lose weight but lean out a bit. I'm not finding it very difficult with so many good carb substitutes out there. Lots of energy, low cravings and hunger, and sleep better. Dr. Berg on youtube is my go to when researching about all things keto. There are a lot more benefits than just weight loss.
dtuuri
Final Approach
I could eat all week for what that cost him. True or false: Baker had his medical license revoked for incompetence?This isn't exactly what you asked for but another facet of what you're talking about. Seeing the results of eating not just keto, but actually carnivore for years. I follow a Dr. on Instagram, Shawn Baker who is a carnivore. No carbs at all. All meat. As a matter of face he says in this post that he had 7 lbs of meat today. He has been carnivore for years. This is a post made today, where he had his calcium score done. So basically this is the 'negative' impact that years of only meat has had on him. I think many would say this is not possible of eating just meat for year with lots of fat. No clogged arteries, etc.
https://www.instagram.com/shawnbaker1967/
BrianNC
En-Route
He talked openly about that on the Joe Rogan show and also has a Youtube video talking about it. So it's something he recognizes openly. That's irrelevant to the pic unless you're saying because that happened that's fake, which one doesn't make the other false. But you asked for something, I posted that in relation, if you want to accept it do, if not don't. All I know is I lost over 100 lbs doing it and the doc where I get my extensive bloodwork done always talks about how great all the markers look.
simtech
En-Route
IF is the way to to right! The longer you can keep your insulin down the better. As Dr. Berg says insulin resistance is the cause of everything. I listen to him as well as Dr. Berry and Thomas Delauer. They are all kind of whacky in a way but they offer good advice. And Dr. Berry is an actual MD.
This guy I work with is bad over weight and taking pills for everything and insulin multiple times a day. I got him listening to berg and he is now keto and IF. Been doing it for a year now and he no longer takes insulin and hasn't had to take most of his other meds now. His body is healing and he is losing weight.
I believe the IF is where its at. I IF 16 to 18 hours a day now. I've done a 36 hour fast a few times to lean out and was surprised how easy it was. Gotta to drink your electrolytes though.
Dr. Berg is fantastic!
scorpio
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I did Keto for a couple years. Once acclimated to the diet I did not find it hard to follow. I thought my energy was better, and I just wasn't hungry. The lack of being hungry all the time was the biggest change for me. My approach was that at home I followed it strictly, but when out with other folks and offered food I'd just eat it.
I still try to limit carbs/sugar, but I am generally in good health so I don't mind having some pizza or pasta every now and then. From my experience I'd recommend keto for someone trying to lose some weight.
I still try to limit carbs/sugar, but I am generally in good health so I don't mind having some pizza or pasta every now and then. From my experience I'd recommend keto for someone trying to lose some weight.
dtuuri
Final Approach
I had never heard of him before and I was in a hurry to get somewhere so I Googled his name. This blogger mentioned it and I wondered if it was really true. I would not trust an incompetent doctor, but maybe that's just me. YMMV.
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
Everything except the one thing you want to get harder!
deonb
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deonb
How does he handle fiber requirements? Just on Keto I find it difficult to get enough fiber - especially soluble fiber.
Low carb/high protein is very hard on your kidneys. Not sustainable in the long term.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169452/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169452/
BrianNC
En-Route
Doesn’t do anything about it. Most carnivores cite new studies showing that the claims made about fiber are highly exaggerated and that it’s not needed as normally stated.
BrianNC
En-Route
For anybody that’s studied keto extensively they could tear apart those claims. Many of the usual claims in that article have been disproven many times. And an 8 week study on 10 people? Come on.
Heck no. Done both, and frankly both work. On Keto now, and staying. Down close to 40 pounds, but more importantly, the point of keto is to feed your brain what it needs. It's not a "low-carb" diet for the purpose of being low carb. It's low carb, medium protein, high fat. Brain food. Atkins is protein and nothing else.
See that just ain't true. That's Atkins. Keto is actually totally different if you look into it. I eat all kinds of Keto breads, muffins, rolls, all that I can make myself (coconut and almond flour). So many people think Keto is Atkins, and it really isn't.
One funny thing I've noticed: everyone who tells me how bad Keto is for you has a BMI of about 60.
Me? Triglycerides from 283 to 117 in 6 months. Not hungry really ever. No cravings. Sleep like a baby. Lost 40 pounds. Got some Keto recipe books on Amazon, the food is delicious.
Not really seeing where this is bad.
Me? Triglycerides from 283 to 117 in 6 months. Not hungry really ever. No cravings. Sleep like a baby. Lost 40 pounds. Got some Keto recipe books on Amazon, the food is delicious.
Not really seeing where this is bad.
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
I do fiber capsules
I have made the opposite observation. While I munch my salad with the croutons, some mountain of a man extols the virtues of keto over a plate of bacon with a side of bacon.
topgun260
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Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I have friends on a "Keto" diet that when we checked what they were eating had almost 0 fiber intake. Of course research has shown low fiber intake = higher risk of some cancers. I have actually had people argue with me and tell me that meat has fiber in it. It does not.
I think the bottom line is what are your goals with any particular diet? People living the Blue Zones are the worlds longest lived people. None of the people living in the Blue Zones eat a Keto diet.
Ultimately most people will find and cite "studies" or news articles that go along with the diet or lifestyle that they want to follow.
DaleB
Final Approach
So. First off, count me as one of the very very serious skeptics of a ketogenic diet.
I had an MI a few years ago. After a stent and a few years of following my cardiologist's advice, as well as that of the cardiac rehab crew, I got another very expensive chunk of stainless in another artery in late 2017. This to me is not terribly encouraging. Now, I will readily admit that I do not get enough exercise, but I've been keeping cholesterol to a minimum, limiting red meat, an egg or two once a month or so, etc. Low fat, calorie limited, all of it. That and a statin hasn't done much good, apparently.
You can imagine my reaction when my youngest (late 20s former football player and long time weight lifter) decided on keto to lose his excess weight. He'd made it up over 300#. I told him - well, at first I told him it was an insane idea, and I'd be very sad at his funeral. Made him promise to at least get his blood work done regularly. So far he's down well over 100#, and his cholesterol has improved as well as triglycerides and A1C. Everything looks great, including him. There's a picture of him and his wife in a pair of his old pants. He's loving the diet after 2 years.
My daughter has had 3 kids and had put on some serious weight as well. She and I had the same conversation a year or 18 months ago when she decided to go keto also. Same results. She's lost over half her body weight. The dance team uniform she wore in high school is roomy on her. There's a charity fundraising event here that consists of taking the stairs up a downtown 40-story building. Last year she did it in 26 minutes; this year she did it in 9 flat. She just did a 7K run last weekend (not her longest at all). And again, her blood work looks great.
I had tried an Atkins style approach a few years ago. Extremely low carb, high protein, low fat. It worked; I lost 20# or so, but it was a struggle to stay on the diet. I was always really missing the carbs. REALLY missing them. For me, it was not sustainable.
I'm 6-1/2 weeks into keto right now. Weight loss has been variable, but I'm averaging a pound per week. I pretty much never feel hungry, and I'm eating less than before. I'm not craving the carbs at all, to be honest. The only time I've had a real challenge was this week when I was traveling for business out to San Jose. Everything available to eat for most of the trip was either junk food or "healthy" food -- plenty of carbs, plenty of sugar, super low fat. I did stay on the diet, the challenge was just getting enough fat. Dinner at a steakhouse two nights in a row helped - thank God for ribeye and grilled vegetables, and thanks Starbucks for having heavy cream on hand for my coffee.
At home, my wife started a week after I did. We're finding some awesome keto recipes -- even bagels. She makes a White Castle casserole that is the bomb. Tonight we had tuna melts on keto bread, pretty good stuff. And I'm telling you, a fat bomb in the afternoon (almond butter, coconut oil, 100% cacao dark cocoa powder and a little stevia, frozen) beats the hell out of raiding the kitchen like I used to. Really, the only thing I miss are my pancakes, and my oatmeal with craisins. I think I'll live.
So, we'll see how well this plays the next time I see the cardiologist and get my blood work done. That's coming up in a month or so. If this works out, by the end of the year I could be very near my goal weight. At the first indication that it's not a good idea, I'll drop it -- but as I noted, a "heart healthy" diet wasn't doing dick for me, so I'm not sure how much worse this can be.
I'm still skeptical, but have decided to give it a try, at least for the short term, and see what happens. Worst case, I croak in the middle of a prime rib or something. I'm well insured, she'll get over it.
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DaleB
Final Approach
Regarding fiber, misconceptions, and all that...
Yes, I do eat more red meat than I used to. Even bacon. I also eat more veggies, especially broccoli, Brussels sprouts, lettuce, cabbage, and cauliflower. Lots of avocados and almonds are giving their lives to support our lifestyle. Even our 100% cacao dark chocolate has a lot of fiber for its weight. We cook with plenty of olive and avocado oil.
Low carb/high protein is an Atkins-style diet. Keto is low carb/high fat. Not just "stuff yourself with bacon". In fact, too much protein will (I am told, haven't had the time to do the reading to see how it works) get you out of ketosis. And nothing at all says that fat has to be the supposedly unhealthy, saturated animal fats. You could probably do a keto diet by eating all veggies cooked in olive and avocado oils, I'm sure... or stick to that plus fish.
Side effects I have personally experienced:
Yes, I do eat more red meat than I used to. Even bacon. I also eat more veggies, especially broccoli, Brussels sprouts, lettuce, cabbage, and cauliflower. Lots of avocados and almonds are giving their lives to support our lifestyle. Even our 100% cacao dark chocolate has a lot of fiber for its weight. We cook with plenty of olive and avocado oil.
Low carb/high protein is an Atkins-style diet. Keto is low carb/high fat. Not just "stuff yourself with bacon". In fact, too much protein will (I am told, haven't had the time to do the reading to see how it works) get you out of ketosis. And nothing at all says that fat has to be the supposedly unhealthy, saturated animal fats. You could probably do a keto diet by eating all veggies cooked in olive and avocado oils, I'm sure... or stick to that plus fish.
Side effects I have personally experienced:
- "Keto flu" -- There was one day that I did feel like crap. Just one day, about a week in.
- I was finding it very difficult to concentrate on work, or anything else, for more than a few minutes at a time. Not now. I can concentrate for hours at a stretch. It's had a positive impact on my work and home projects as well.
- I'm getting a lot more green veggies and healthy fats in my diet now. Yes, along with a lot more cheese, dairy, and even (gasp) bacon.
- I'm pretty much never hungry. That ribeye I had for dinner last night? It held me over most of today. I know for certain that if I'd done it the way I would have before, trim the fat, have a potato and some bread or a roll, I'd have needed breakfast. This morning I had a grande Starbucks with some heavy cream and I was good to go. Same thing for lunch.
gdwindowpane
Pre-takeoff checklist
What is everyone's favorite reference material for going Keto. Tons of stuff listed when I googled it. Looking for a beginners guide.
DaleB
Final Approach
I found dietdoctor.com quite helpful. Lots of good recipes, some basic information, etc. Their two-week keto challenge was really good, actually. I haven't signed up for their membership plan thing, don't know if I will or not. On the one hand, I think I have the idea... and don't really need motivational emails. On the other hand, their web site is so useful I feel like I should probably support them. I'll probably join for a couple-few months.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Thanks for your posts, that's what I was looking for. It takes a lot of guts to do what you're doing, no pun intended. I, too, felt my vegan diet for seven years let me down when I had a triple bypass a few months ago. But my cardiologist spins it as a positive thing that allowed me to do better than predicted after I needed a stent seven years prior. My current reassessment is (this is something Dr. Bruce told me), once the arteries start to close they keep on keeping on. Closure, the FAA thinks, is inevitable. Well, there are studies to the contrary when it comes to vegan diets, but no other diets that I know of, so why did my attempt at it fail, I ask myself. I'm now thinking it could be the omega 6 to omega 3 ratio. I ate corn tortillas as a staple. I ate M&M peanuts as snacks. Lots of whole grain breads. When you look at the omega sixes in these low fat foods, they're incredibly high when there's hardly any omega three fats in the diet. I even ate corn tortillas with peanut butter thinking it was a healthy thing! So, I've added salmon to my diet and am just now starting to target the ratio below 4:1 every day with 1:1 or less being the ideal. Salmon and tuna (tuna once per week) act as an amazing antidote for the criminally high ratio of omega sixes to threes in peanut butter (something like 900 to 1).
Looking back on it, the treadmill in my garage was a far better indicator of the state of affairs within my arteries. Even right after the stent opened up the culprit blockage and my new diet made me feel great, there was an exercise limitation, almost like a governor on a carburetor, caused by chest pain. I could walk really fast, but not run. As time went by the threshold for this pain slowly dropped, as measured by my heart rate upon the onset of it. My cardiologist said angina trumps everything: blood work, EKG, stress test. etc. He was right. My blood work had been perfect for seven years. So, I don't think you can put much stock in labs anymore. Even my cardiologist says he used to measure everything as new theories came out, but scientific studies never corroborate the theories, so all he pays attention to anymore, after 30 years in the business, is LDL. The lower the better. If I were you, I'd pay more attention to what your treadmill is trying to tell you than your lab work.
DaleB
Final Approach
My LDL is fairly low - I don't remember the exact number last time around, but it's pretty low. My HDL needs to be higher. Everything in the labs looked great, other than that. Yes, I know, off my ass and get more exercise.
My cardiologist agrees that the lab doesn't tell all. Nuclear stress tests tell more, but even that didn't tell us I'd be in the cath lab for a second stent. We've talked about bypass, but he still feels the risk factor is higher opening me up than placing stents. I don't know how many it will take before that tune changes, though. Next appointment I'm going to have a very frank discussion about that with him. If the reality is that it's inevitable, I'd rather not waste time (and thousands of dollars) every couple of years with another stent. Just do the bypass, fix it all, get it over with. Who knows? I might even be able to get a medical again. Silver linings, right?
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not doing this to try and trigger something to get a bypass. I'm just not comfortable with the idea of waiting for chest pain to set in and getting another stent every X months.
BrianNC
En-Route
And even that's not a sure thing. I have a friend who several years ago kept insisting to his doctors that something was wrong with him and he passed every treadmill test with flying colors. He since has had several stints.
DaleB
Final Approach
My sister in law will be here in a few hours for the weekend. She's the one who, when she was a slim, fit aerobics instructor under 40, had a heart attack. At least she lived; a good friend of ours who was slim, exercised regularly, and ate healthy dropped dead without warning less than a week after leaving the doctor's office for his annual checkup. Sometimes you just don't know what's coming.
dtuuri
Final Approach
To be clear, the chest pain I had was not the crushing kind you get with a heart attack, which I never had. It's a small focal area the size of your thumb nail along the breast bone that increases in discomfort as the exercise intensity exceeds a certain threshold as measured by heart rate, like 120 bpm this year, 115 next, and so on. Any harder than that and the pain lets you know in no uncertain terms to back off. When you do, it goes away within a minute or so. I inclined the treadmill, hooked up the heart rate monitor and began walking and gradually increasing the speed. Between the speed and pulse I had a good indication of my fitness progress, which seemed to be steadily deteriorating, although very slowly. "Waiting for chest pain to set in" was not my mind set. It was "waiting for it to go away" from the combination of beneficial diet and exercise as verified with the treadmill. It just got worse more slowly than it would have otherwise.
Maria Emmerich Keto cookbooks. Recipes are fabulous and all of them have an intro section, a substitutes section (buy this instead of this), a section on kitchen gadgets, etc.
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simtech
En-Route
Are they not eating veggies? Veggies are a must.
DaleB
Final Approach
Nor did I, except when I was actually having an MI. THEN it got really bad. Before that it wasn't even chest pain, just an "odd" feeling, difficult to describe -- almost like panic. That, and I'd been extremely easy to tire for a few weeks. I'd go to the gym and do a strenuous workout, no pain, but then I'd go home and collapse on the couch, unable to move for an hour or two. No pain, no left arm thing, none of that.
DaleB
Final Approach
Absolutely. I wonder how many people just hear things about keto and decide, "Hey, I'll just eat steak and bacon and butter from now on, that's keto, right?"
We were eating right before, but we're still eating a lot more veggies now.
BrianNC
En-Route
There’s a huge carnivore community out there that eats no vegetables, lost tons of weight, and are healthy and fit. To say vegetables are a must is basically an opinion. You can find many articles to support both sides.
That's where I am yet to be convinced of the merits of keto or the carnivore thing. There are long term cohort studies that show the benefit of caloric restriction and mediterranean cuisine. I have yet to see something long term that shows that either keto or carnivorous is sustainable and healthy. Particularly the carnivore approach has a hint of cultish guru behavior. One or ten guys coronary calcium score is not ''data', it's still an anecdote. There is data for the relationship of processed meats and colon cancer and data on fiber and colon camcer. Unless your Atkins, keto or carnivorous diet relies on 100% fresh meat that you eat either raw or cooked (rather than charred and or nitrate salted), I don't see how you are going to get around the negative effects of large amounts of meat
These proclamations about a particular diet are made to apply to everyone . And 'everyone' by it's nature is an unselected group. Anecdotes from small groups of people who obviously spend their day in the gym are not 'data' that make something applicable to the general population.
If you have a weight and pre-diabetes problem aand losing weight is a matter of survival, by all means use keto to get it down to a safer level. Unless someone can show me good long term data to support it, I remain skeptical regarding keto as a long term nutritional strategy. Because we can survive on a diet devoid of carbs doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to do so for decades (I am familiar with it as a strategy to treat a particular type of childhood seizures since the 90s, but those kids have many confounders that would affect any long term data so again it may not apply to gen pop).