ATC: You WILL land here...

EppyGA said:
Steven, that brings my question mind. Let's say I intend to land at xyz airport, a "D" airport. I make a call to xyz tower and they repsond with my tail number. I then cruise on in and land without any further contact making sure to maintain separation while in the air and not interfering with any other inbound traffic. What would happen once I'm on the ground?
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Well, you landed at a controlled field without the required clearance. What happens next depends on the tower staff. Might be nothing, might be a chat with ATC, might be a report to FSDO.
 
35 AoA said:
2) I lol'd at the ground controller admonishing her for taxiing at an unfamiliar field without an instructor. First, she is a certificated pilot; second, she had no intention of landing there so how can he blame her; third, I can't count the number of unfamiliar fields I have landed a single seat aircraft at without an instructor. Yes I've made a fool out of myself in the past at night, taxiing around unfamiliar places, but I can hardly imagine the scenario (all other things being equal) where that would truly be dangerous. You can stop. At any time. And then ask for instructions/progressive. WTF over?
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Is it "instructor" or "instruction"? I hear "instruction", so I assume she started taxiing without clearance. Which I guess I can understand after going though all that stuff in the air.
 
EppyGA said:
I thought this case was someone VFR though.
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I don't know. In the tapes it sounds like it. Obviously she didn't comply with an instruction from the twr whether that's VFR or IFR?

What I'm talking about is transitioning VFR through a class D. Approach is required to get approval from tower.
 
Velocity173 said:
Agreed Steven you got me.:redface: At first glance I though this case was inside a Bravo but it appears to be a Delta outside the Bravo. Not sure about how approach owns tower's airspace in this case though. Would not approach have to coordinated with tower for anything transitioning the Delta??
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Sure, just as was done with Airport Traffic Areas before airspace reclassification. Class D airspace is the demon spawn of Control Zone and Airport Traffic Area. When radar controllers coordinate the transition of Class D airspace they're paying homage to the ATA parent, not the CZ.
 
MachFly said:
Found a recording on liveATC (attached) where the pilot wanted to depart the airspace and go to an airport that was 10nm north. Instead tower said that he does not like what she's doing (don't know what she was doing, can't tell from the recording) and told her to land.
I never heard that tower could make you land, can they really do that or is it just this guy?
Doesn't sound like she busted someone's airspace or TFR.
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Horrible day for her and the aggressive controller.

Having said that, this tape sounds heavily edited. I can't hear most of the pilot's responses after she's landed.
 
roncachamp said:
Sure, just as was done with Airport Traffic Areas before airspace reclassification. Class D airspace is the demon spawn of Control Zone and Airport Traffic Area. When radar controllers coordinate the transition of Class D airspace they're paying homage to the ATA parent, not the CZ.
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So you're working a VFR flight following at 2,500 from GBI. Can you run him through ATW without coordinating with twr?
 
spiderweb said:
Having said that, this tape sounds heavily edited. I can't hear most of the pilot's responses after she's landed.
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I would not know. I got it from interesting recordings section at liveatc.net, most recording there are accurate.

The name of file was "KIWA-Jun-14-2012-1730Z," when I went to look up the whole 30min file for that time and date but it was not in the archives.
 
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spiderweb said:
...............Having said that, this tape sounds heavily edited. I can't hear most of the pilot's responses after she's landed.
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You won't.... ATC live picks up broadcasts and a plane on the ground is usually not close to the receiving antenna for that half of the conversation to be heard.:dunno::idea:.
 
N801BH said:
You won't.... ATC live picks up broadcasts and a plane on the ground is usually not close to the receiving antenna for that half of the conversation to be heard.:dunno::idea:.
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Ah, thanks for that. I didn't realize!

PS: You have a great first name.
 
Clark1961 said:
Who has the authority. Stop being obtuse (or not, your choice but I'm not going to put up with it any further).
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I'm not being obtuse, you're not making sense. You ask how pilots are supposed to know who owns the airspace because you believe it makes a difference. What difference do you believe it makes? What does it matter if the Class D airspace is at a satellite field served by a nearby TRACON or if it's the home of a TRACON itself?
 
Regardless of who owns the airspace, no controller has the authority to demand that you land anywhere. They merely have the authority to clear you (or not) once you tell them where you want to go.
 
roncachamp said:
I'm not being obtuse, you're not making sense. You ask how pilots are supposed to know who owns the airspace because you believe it makes a difference. What difference do you believe it makes? What does it matter if the Class D airspace is at a satellite field served by a nearby TRACON or if it's the home of a TRACON itself?
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You're being obtuse and now you're making up circumstances.
 
MachFly said:
Is it "instructor" or "instruction"? I hear "instruction", so I assume she started taxiing without clearance. Which I guess I can understand after going though all that stuff in the air.
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Perhaps so....I would have to listen to it again. That would make somewhat more sense.
 
WTF??!! lol

not sure how bad she messed things up, but wow, I doubt I would allow my PIC authority to be ****ed on like that.

How about, give me a vector to the shortest distance out of your airspace and I'll give my atty that number you had me copy!
 
I heard "..if you're not familiar with an airport, you definitely should not be taxiing around without an instruction, that's dangerous ..."

Sounds to me like a couple of people were having bad days.
 
Many LiveATC volunteer feeders have receivers too far from the airport to hear weak signals from aircraft on the ground. Normal.

My KAPA feed misses some stuff on the ground, since I'm a few miles West of the airport.

If I ever get around to it, I've been meaning to put up a yagi pointed toward the airport to see if I can make that better.
 
Velocity173 said:
So would you say this coordination is for approval to enter or simply a heads up call to ATW?
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Oh second question getting back to the thread. Can local at a Class D use the DBRITE in this case to assign a radar vector?
 
Velocity173 said:
Oh second question getting back to the thread. Can local at a Class D use the DBRITE in this case to assign a radar vector?
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Will be interesting to hear the official answer, but my guess would be no... They can give a heading assigned by App/Dep for an IFR departure, or a "recommended heading" off of the scope, but probably not an official "vector".

Big monkey wrench here might be a Tower (usually military or ex-military) that has a PAR.

No idea regulation-wise what they're allowed to call it, but probably not "vectors", just "recommend a heading of 220" for traffic.

Towers in general are using eyeballs as primary. I'm sure there are exceptions.
 
MachFly said:
Found a recording on liveATC (attached) where the pilot wanted to depart the airspace and go to an airport that was 10nm north. Instead tower said that he does not like what she's doing (don't know what she was doing, can't tell from the recording) and told her to land.
I never heard that tower could make you land, can they really do that or is it just this guy?
Doesn't sound like she busted someone's airspace or TFR.
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That's an amazing recording. I have to wonder what she did to get the guy so POed that he felt it necessary to exceed his authority like that.

I had a controller order me to land once. I was on my sixth ILS in actual, which I was doing for currency purposes, and he cleared me to land instead of clearing me for low approach as he had the previous five times. He said that the field had gone above minimums and that he couldn't approve any "VFR requests." :confused: He wanted me to land and pick up a departure clearance on the ground. Finally he asked me for my intentions, and I told him I was going to continue flying the approach, and then I was going to fly the missed approach. He stopped arguing with me, and after that I went home, as I had finished what I needed to do.

Of course, the joke of it is that having this discussion while on the ILS was so distracting that I got off course to the point that I had to stop my descent and start a climb for the missed approach. It wouldn't have been legal to continue the approach, and it wouldn't have been legal to land, as I never got below the ceiling.

In the case of the pilot on this recording, ATC's authority over her, such as it was, ended once she shut down the airplane, or as soon as she taxied out of the movement area (I'm not sure which). She could have then waited for the tower to close and flown home without further interference.
 
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Things that would have been fun to say:

"Tower, suggest you contact an instructor and have him explain 14 CFR 91.3 to you."

"Tower, say again, you're broken and unreadable."

Or just "accidentally" bump the volume control to the minimum setting.

Or just stop answering and squawk 7600.
 
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roncachamp said:
I don't see a significant difference.
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Well if it's approach's airspace why even bother getting approval for a transition? Do you not ask him on the landline approval request or transition request and then they come back with approved?
 
EppyGA said:
Correct. If I'm headed for a Delta and I call xyz tower Cessna 1234 and hear Cessna 1234 come back that's all I need to continue on. There is definitely a fine line and if you entered the pattern and landed I'm not actually sure what would happen.
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That's all that is required to enter the airspace, but once you are in contact with ATC you are obliged to follow their instructions.

And you do not request authorization to fly in class D airspace, you tell ATC what you are going to do. If they have need for something different, they'll tell you.
 
Clark1961 said:
Suit yerself.
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2−1−16. SURFACE AREAS​
a.​
​
​
​
​
Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach
control tower on an individual aircraft basis before
issuing a clearance which would require flight within
a surface area for which the tower has responsibility
unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.​

REFERENCE−​
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 4−3−1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term− Surface Area.​
b.​
​
​
​
​
Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility’s airspace.​

NOTE−​
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.​
c.​
​
​
​
​
Transfer communications to the appropriate
facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface
area for which the tower has responsibility.​

REFERENCE−​
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2−1−17, Radio Communications Transfer.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Well if it's approach's airspace why even bother getting approval for a transition? Do you not ask him on the landline approval request or transition request and then they come back with approved?
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I don't seek approval, I coordinate the transition. I tell the tower where the aircraft is and where it's going. The most common response, by far, is just the controller's initials. A few times, when the aircraft was going to pass over the airport and there was other local traffic, they asked to talk to the overflight.

The tower has to call me for approval for a SVFR departure. SVFR exists only within the surface area. If the tower "owned" the Class D airspace they wouldn't have to do that, they wouldn't need my permission to use their own property.
 
roncachamp said:
I don't seek approval, I coordinate the transition. I tell the tower where the aircraft is and where it's going. The most common response, by far, is just the controller's initials. A few times, when the aircraft was going to pass over the airport and there was other local traffic, they asked to talk to the overflight.

The tower has to call me for approval for a SVFR departure. SVFR exists only within the surface area. If the tower "owned" the Class D airspace they wouldn't have to do that, they wouldn't need my permission to use their own property.
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It sure seems like 2-1-16 requires their approval. So the tower wouldn't be able to come back and say "unable, remain outside the class D?"

Sure they need your permission for SVFR but that's only because of your IFR traffic. Tower can still provide separation to SVFR Helicopters from IFR within their airspace.
 
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Velocity173 said:
It sure seems like 2-1-16 requires their approval. So the tower wouldn't be able to come back and say "unable, remain outside the class D?"
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It's never happened in my experience.

Sure they need your permission for SVFR but that's only because of your IFR traffic. Tower can still provide separation to SVFR Helicopters from IFR within their airspace.
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They must seek my permission whether or not there is any IFR traffic.
 
roncachamp said:
It's never happened in my experience.



They must seek my permission whether or not there is any IFR traffic.
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Approval yes, but I'm referring to 7-5-3. We had an LOA in Bagram between our helicopters(SVFR) and the tower allowing them to apply the approved separation in 7-5-3 B in the 7110.65. The separation was maintained by the tower controller since usually less than 1 mile from the runway we're both going to be up their frequency. Of course when we had 2 SVFR helos departing tower is responsible for that sep as well.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Approval yes, but I'm referring to 7-5-3. We had an LOA in Bagram between our helicopters(SVFR) and the tower allowing them to apply the approved separation in 7-5-3 B in the 7110.65. The separation was maintained by the tower controller since usually less than 1 mile from the runway we're both going to be up their frequency. Of course when we had 2 SVFR helos departing tower is responsible for that sep as well.
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Separation is not an issue when there is no other traffic, yet even when there is no other traffic the tower cannot launch a SVFR departure without first getting permission from approach. Tower wouldn't need to obtain that permission if they owned the airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
Separation is not an issue when there is no other traffic, yet even when there is no other traffic the tower cannot launch a SVFR departure without first getting permission from approach. Tower wouldn't need to obtain that permission if they owned the airspace.
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So when tower is running a VFR traffic pattern, you're allowing them to do this in their airspace? Like I said if you owned the airspace then why would you need authorization IAW 2-1-16?
 
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roncachamp said:
VFR operations are not an issue with regard to Class D airspace.
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OK, what about you requiring authorization IAW 2-1-16? Is there a difference between authorization and approval?
 
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