ATC Phraseology Re Specifying Airport vs. VOR in Clearance

[RotorAndWing]

Why would it not be? According to the Instrument Flying Handbook's Glossary, a waypoint is defined as "geographical locations, or fixes, used to define an area navigation route or the flightpath of an aircraft employing area navigation. Waypoints may be any of the following types: predefined, published, floating, user-defined, fly-by, or fly-over." Is an airport not a predefined geographic location which can be used to define a route in which to fly?

Think about this for a minute. You are IFR, which permits you to fly in IMC conditions. Why would a controller issue you a clearance to a waypoint you must visually identify?

Go one step further. How many times operating IFR have you heard an airport being given as an intermediate waypoint?

 

[RotorAndWing]

About six months ago while deviating around some weather, the controller said "you are cleared direct to". (Long pause while he was trying to come up with a fix). "I tell you what, you are cleared direct the Kxxx airport, and then flight planned route. "

So not often, but it can happen.

But they specified Kxxx airport in the clearance.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Think about this for a minute. You are IFR, which permits you to fly in IMC conditions. Why would a controller issue you a clearance to a waypoint you must visually identify?

Having thought about it for a minute, they are not issuing a waypoint you must visually identify; they are issuing a waypoint you are going to navigate to as it appears in your IFR-certified GPS box.

I agree with you that unless they specify "airport" it means "VOR" with respect to an en route fix, but I don't think it has anything to do with being capable of visual reference.

Of course, if ATC has not used the word "airport" or "VOR" and one is not certain, it is so incredibly easy to clarify as part of the readback.

 

[cirrusmx]

why complicate the issue? when in doubt ask. problemo solved.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Having thought about it for a minute, they are not issuing a waypoint you must visually identify; they are issuing a waypoint you are going to navigate to as it appears in your IFR-certified GPS box.

ATC isn't concerned with your GPS and how you program it. If your GPS craps out how are you going to identify your next fix?

I don't want to do a "Ron Levy" here, but in many, many years of flying in the ATC system both local and abroad I've never been given an intermediate fix such as an airport, it simply doesn't make sense.

I agree with you that unless they specify "airport" it means "VOR" with respect to an en route fix, but I don't think it has anything to do with being capable of visual reference.

Common sense.

Of course, if ATC has not used the word "airport" or "VOR" and one is not certain, it is so incredibly easy to clarify as part of the readback.

Question everything. The new FO's I have been flying with are always appalled when I question ATC. The new attitude (especially in Asian culture) is never question authority. ATC screws up just as much as pilots, when in doubt, ask questions.

 

[RotorAndWing]

why complicate the issue? when in doubt ask. problemo solved.

 

[timwinters]

why complicate the issue? when in doubt ask. problemo solved.

Except that the OP was never in doubt because he wasn't aware that FAM VOR even existed.

Maybe a quicker solution is to simply read back the waypoint with either the "VOR" or "Airport" suffix...whichever one you think it is. If your assumption is wrong then ATC should tell you.

 

[timwinters]

ATC isn't concerned with your GPS and how you program it. If your GPS craps out how are you going to identify your next fix?

So I guess they should never issue a clearance to a 5 letter GPS only waypoint either?

A few in this thread have confirmed that ATC does indeed issue airports as waypoints to IFR pilots...though it sounds quite rare. Airports have been issued to me also as waypoints a couple of times...again rarely.

So it's not unheard of, rather rare.

 

[RotorAndWing]

So I guess they should never issue a clearance to a 5 letter GPS only waypoint either?

Honestly that doesn't make any sense in the context of the discussion. Are you saying 5 letter waypoints can only be identified via GPS?

A few in this thread have confirmed that ATC does indeed issue airports as waypoints to IFR pilots...though it sounds quite rare. Airports have been issued to me also as waypoints a couple of times...again rarely.

So it's not unheard of, rather rare.

It's rare, but they use the term "airport" in the clearance. If not, question the clearance.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Except that the OP was never in doubt because he wasn't aware that FAM VOR even existed.

Which is troubling that a ATP rated pilot flying PIC on a Part 135 scheduled operation felt he should not have to open a chart and confirm a new waypoint not on his clearance.

We can't be expected to take out a chart and search the thing for NAVAIDs for every clearance point...

E
Maybe a quicker solution is to simply read back the waypoint with either the "VOR" or "Airport" suffix...whichever one you think it is. If your assumption is wrong then ATC should tell you.

Question it if unsure, it can't hurt.

 

[Palmpilot]

The system as based all the way back to the lighted airway system and amended over time, really hasn't been that bad. Surely it's a design that has generally held its own without too many major failures for closing on a century or so soon.

If you look at old charts and watch the tech and systems changes, the basic system is still there. How to track and control aircraft flying fixed routes. We just changed how the fixes are received over time.

The actual underlying system technically would still work without radar and without comm, and does from time to time but it's getting more rare. And it gets very inefficient in that mode.

Probably true. The imperfection revealed by the discussion in this thread seems to be that the widespread adoption of GPS-based navigation appears to have led to the existence of an occasional situation whose proper handling is not documented in FAA publications; hence the occasional confusion being discussed. Maybe the AIM and the controllers' manual need to be amended to indicate that when there are a non co-located navaid and airport with the same name, that name shall be followed by the term [navaid type] or "airport."

 

[midlifeflyer]

ATC isn't concerned with your GPS and how you program it. If your GPS craps out how are you going to identify your next fix?

Maybe the same way you identify a VOR if your VOR receiver craps out? Or the same way they expect you to navigate "direct" to an airport from an en route location? Yeah, ATC is not concerned with your GPS. So?

I don't want to do a "Ron Levy" here, but in many, many years of flying in the ATC system both local and abroad I've never been given an intermediate fix such as an airport, it simply doesn't make sense.

Be that as it may, but a few folks here have already mentioned actual instances of being given an airport as an intermediate en route fix. Has never happened to me and I'd be surprised it it did, but I have no reason to question the veracity of their reports just because it hasn't happened in my personal experience.

 

[Everskyward]

Except that the OP was never in doubt because he wasn't aware that FAM VOR even existed.

Maybe a quicker solution is to simply read back the waypoint with either the "VOR" or "Airport" suffix...whichever one you think it is. If your assumption is wrong then ATC should tell you.

True, but the clearance never triggered the "wait a minute, they don't normally assign airports as intermediate fixes" reaction in the OP. I'm not sure that's something that is specifically taught and it's obviously a situation the OP didn't consider. I'm sure next time he will.

 

[AustinPilot]

It's not what you file, it's what you get: "ATC clears Buzzbomb 1234X to the Podunk airport...."

I can't recall ever getting a clearance that did not include the name of the destination airport. There are knowledge test questions on this very subject. AIM 4-4-3(a).

Bob Gardner

Yes the clearance ends at an airport, but what I mean is that I have never heard of a case where they assign you to fly to an airport as part of the route (unless you asked for it).

The ATC computer uses fixes and airways to assign routes, it doesn't just pick an airport somewhere between your departure and destination and have you fly over it.

 

[petrolero]

It would never even enter my mind that ATC would clear me to an airport as an intermediate fix along a route.

Today we were cleared direct "Bozeman Airport" (the destination). But they are co-located, KBZN and BZN.

Me too.

If I'm cleared to an airport (as in my initial full route clearance) they always say "cleared to the ______ airport"

When en route, if a waypoint isn't in my route clearance they usually give me the letters (or I ask for them) for the VOR or 5-letter waypoint unless I'm on a published procedure.

When en route, if I'm cleared to an airport I've only ever been cleared to my destination airport. For that, they say "cleared direct destination" or sometimes they say the full airport name followed by "airport".

If my destination has a nearby VOR by the same name and there is some ambiguity as to which they mean, I'd ask (although this hasn't happened to me). But I imagine most controllers would say airport if they mean airport.

 

[kayoh190]

The ATC computer uses fixes and airways to assign routes, it doesn't just pick an airport somewhere between your departure and destination and have you fly over it.

But in the OP's case, this was a fix suggested by the controller to avoid weather. It wasn't something spit out by the computer.

That said, it would never occur to me to go direct to an airport under such circumstances, even if I wasn't aware of the VOR. I'd either look up the three letter identifier, or more likely (because I'm a lazy bastard) ask the controller to give it to me.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Be that as it may, but a few folks here have already mentioned actual instances of being given an airport as an intermediate en route fix. Has never happened to me and I'd be surprised it it did, but I have no reason to question the veracity of their reports just because it hasn't happened in my personal experience.

But ATC puts __________ "airport" after the fix name.

 

[Palmpilot]

But ATC puts __________ "airport" after the fix name.

For the context of enroute fixes, where is that requirement documented?

(I'm not saying it isn't; I just want to know whether it is or not, and if it is, I'd like to read it.)

 

[Velocity173]

For the context of enroute fixes, where is that requirement documented?

(I'm not saying it isn't; I just want to know whether it is or not, and if it is, I'd like to read it.)

Under 4-4-1 C2 in the controllers handbook. I'd consider the OP's situation to be an "impromptu" route. In that case I'd definitely say "Farmington VOR" to ensure there was no confusion.

When I worked it was mostly / U so assigning a name would pretty much mean the NAVAID. These days with RNAV being dominant I'd make sure that any route update I'd specify either "VOR" or "airport" in the reroute. If you don't hear it, then as a PIC, I'd make sure I'd clarify it with the controller.

 

[Palmpilot]

Under 4-4-1 C2 in the controllers handbook. I'd consider the OP's situation to be an "impromptu" route...

That seems ambiguous as to whether ATC is required to say the word "VOR," "Airport," etc., or just its name. Is there anything that makes it explicit somewhere?

2. Impromptu
PHRASEOLOGY−
DIRECT (name of NAVAID/waypoint/fix/airport)
NOTE−
A random impromptu routing is a direct course initiated by ATC or requested by the pilot during flight. Aircraft are cleared from their present position to a NAVAID, waypoint, fix, or airport.

 

[Velocity173]

That seems ambiguous as to whether ATC is required to say the word "VOR," "Airport," etc., or just its name. Is there anything that makes it explicit somewhere?

I'd agree it seems ambiguous. That's where the PIC needs to confirm the routing with ATC. Personally, in the absence of "airport" I'm going to the NAVAID.

 

[poadeleted20]

Never assume. Unless the VOR is on the airport, if the controller fails to specify which it is, follow 14 CFR 91.123(a) and immediately obtain clarification. And note that while subparagraph b2 requires "VOR" if it's a VOR, subparagraph b1 requires "airport" if it's an airport, so there is no basis for a pilot to assume one or the other (outside the trivial case where the navaid is on the airport so it doesn't matter).

BTW, the FAA is on a long, slow journey to change the names of all VOR's not located on the airport which currently shares their name (like Martinsburg and Morgantown in WV, and Lynchburg VA) so this issue will be eliminated. That's why Tuscaloosa VOR got changed to Crimson VOR ("Roll Tide", and all that).

 

[flyingron]

Post #26?

Bob

4-4-3 (a) doesn't help, Bob:

1. It only applies to the clearance limit. These ambiguous fixes may appear elsewhere in the route.

2. It says that they should say AIRPORT or VOR explicitly, but given an ambiguous point, it does NOT give information on how to resolve that ambiguity.

 

[Everskyward]

But in the OP's case, this was a fix suggested by the controller to avoid weather. It wasn't something spit out by the computer.

That said, it would never occur to me to go direct to an airport under such circumstances, even if I wasn't aware of the VOR. I'd either look up the three letter identifier, or more likely (because I'm a lazy bastard) ask the controller to give it to me.

This...

In thinking about it there's no way controllers always say "VOR" when referring to a VOR even when there is also an airport. I can think of numerous instances when I have been cleared to a VOR without them saying "VOR". I would never consider that they meant the airport unless they said "airport" or unless it was the destination.

 

[midlifeflyer]

4-4-3 (a) doesn't help, Bob:

1. It only applies to the clearance limit. These ambiguous fixes may appear elsewhere in the route.

2. It says that they should say AIRPORT or VOR explicitly, but given an ambiguous point, it does NOT give information on how to resolve that ambiguity.

In which case, clarify if you are unsure.

Ron likes to point out it's a rule. I like to point out it's the one and only thing that makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron likes to point out it's a rule. I like to point out it's the one and only thing that makes any sense whatsoever.

If everyone acted sensibly, we wouldn't need this particular rule.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

So not the same situation today, but a similar concept: While on with ZKC, I got a crossing restriction to cross, "40 miles north-west of St. Louis at 9,000." Being that the STL VOR is 9nm NW from KSTL and taking the majorities suggestion, I assumed he meant the VOR and tuned it up, but still asked for clarification: "To clarify, is that 40 miles from the airport or the VOR." "Umm... Yeah, the airport, but thanks for asking."

And I have asked a handful of our pilots, some more experienced than I and some less, and the overwhelming majority said in the original situation then would punch in the airport, not any NAVAID. Obviously not an answer on the books, but a few more data points which illustrate how our generation thinks and interacts in the system. The only "I'd punch in the VOR" answer I got was from an older gentleman who's never flown with a certified GPS, let alone /G, until starting this job about a year ago.

 

[dtuuri]

"To clarify, is that 40 miles from the airport or the VOR." "Umm... Yeah, the airport, but thanks for asking."
...

The only "I'd punch in the VOR" answer I got was from an older gentleman who's never flown with a certified GPS, let alone /G, until starting this job about a year ago.

They ought to make him Chief Pilot and tell him to straighten you punks out. Then he ought to call ATC and straighten them out too!

dtuuri

 

[roncachamp]

So when cleared to a fix in which an airport and a ground-based NAVAID share the same name, what's the proper phraseology? If I'm reading JO 7110.65V 4-2-1b2 correctly, then it must be stated directly. I hear it all the time when assigned "direct St. Louis VOR." However, the specification is not used when there is no airport with the same name, such as with "direct Maples."

Section 4-2 is Clearances, section 2-5 covers Route and NAVAID Description. The book is consistent that the type of NAVAID must be stated, if known, when it is the clearance limit, but does not specifically require it when the NAVAID is an intermediate fix. However, the book does include the NAVAID type in phraseology examples.

Today I was off of KJBR direct KSTL, and was given a suggestion to go "direct Farmington" to avoid a pretty nice storm. I punched KFAM into my flight-plan and went directly to it. I was then given a couple alerts as to being off course, which one ZME controller sounded quite displeased about (we half expected a number to call judging by the sound of his voice)... It wasn't until I was with ZKC and got another query about being off-course and I zoomed in the 530 and saw there was a FAM VOR a good distance away form the airport. I asked and she said, yeah, we were supposed to be going to the VOR, not the airport. Since no NAVAID type was included in the clearance, I just assumed he meant the airport, as I didn't even know there was a VOR.

Where would you have gone if you had punched in FAM instead of KFAM?

 

[roncachamp]

Good topic but please confirm you are saying the default is the Navaid when the VOR and Airport are close unless specified otherwise. Recently I was told by an approach controller Direct Raleigh then destination. I asked if they meant the airport or the VOR and I was told DIRECT RALEIGH which did not help. I picked the VOR. Both the airport and the VOR are named Raleigh Durham.

The controller should have said "Raliegh-Durham VOR" initially. He should have responded to your question with "VOR". But in this case the VOR and airport aren't close, the VOR is on the field. So why ask the question?

 

[roncachamp]

That's the whole point of what I'm trying to get at... What reference do you have to back-up the assumption? And unless they said, how was I to know they meant a VOR? I knew there was a Farmington airport, as I was just assigned it's current altimeter setting, but I didn't even know there was a Farmington VOR.

Why didn't you know there was a Farmington VOR? Did you not familiarize yourself with all available information concerning that flight before you began it?

Why did you choose to specify an airport when you didn't know there was a NAVAID by the same name? We can question whether or not a pilot should default to NAVAID in the case of an enroute fix, but your NAV system probably does. Had you punched in FAM instead of KFAM you probably would have gone to the VOR as expected and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We can't be expected to take out a chart and search the thing for NAVAIDs for every clearance point...

Why not?

 

[jesse]

Why didn't you know there was a Farmington VOR? Did you not familiarize yourself with all available information concerning that flight before you began it?

Why did you choose to specify an airport when you didn't know there was a NAVAID by the same name? We can question whether or not a pilot should default to NAVAID in the case of an enroute fix, but your NAV system probably does. Had you punched in FAM instead of KFAM you probably would have gone to the VOR as expected and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Why not?

Easy for a controller to memorize every fix in their airspace after they've been staring at that one chunk of airspace for the last twenty years or so - less easy for pilots that are constantly crossing the country and don't spend much of any time in any one chunk of airspace.

I'm not too proud to ask a controller information about where they just told me to go. 99% of the controllers gladly tell you the answer to whatever you ask and the ones that don't will if you stand your ground.

 

[roncachamp]

I just can't imagine a route with 10 enroute fixes with one of them being an airport. Doesn't happen. I've never gotten it. (or I flew over many a VOR instead of the airport and did not get chastised)
The only time you get an airport is the last item in the route.
Has someone actually gotten an airport in the middle of multiple enroute fixes?

It happens when the pilot files it that way and the route clearance is "as filed". I would never reroute an aircraft via airport fixes, nor would I reroute an aircraft via NAVAIDs without specifying the type of NAVAID.

 

[roncachamp]

Under 4-4-1 C2 in the controllers handbook. I'd consider the OP's situation to be an "impromptu" route. In that case I'd definitely say "Farmington VOR" to ensure there was no confusion.

When I worked it was mostly / U so assigning a name would pretty much mean the NAVAID. These days with RNAV being dominant I'd make sure that any route update I'd specify either "VOR" or "airport" in the reroute. If you don't hear it, then as a PIC, I'd make sure I'd clarify it with the controller.

Subparagraph 4-4-1.c.2 does not direct controllers to state the type of NAVAID.


4−4−1. ROUTE USE

Clear aircraft via routes consistent with the altitude stratum in which the operation is to be conducted by one or more of the following:

c. Random routes.

2. Impromptu

PHRASEOLOGY−
DIRECT (name of NAVAID/waypoint/fix/airport)

NOTE−
A random impromptu routing is a direct course initiated by ATC or requested by the pilot during flight. Aircraft are cleared from their present position to a NAVAID, waypoint, fix, or airport.

 

[roncachamp]

Easy for a controller to memorize every fix in their airspace after they've been staring at that one chunk of airspace for the last twenty years or so - less easy for pilots that are constantly crossing the country and don't spend much of any time in any one chunk of airspace.

Pilots that do proper preflight planning know about them.

 

[jesse]

Pilots that do proper preflight planning know about them.

Really? Lmfao. Memorize every possible thing a controller could send you to within 100 or so miles of your course each direction on a 1800 mile flight? I'd like to see you memorize 180,000 square miles of airspace on a moments notice.

 

[roncachamp]

Really? Lmfao. Memorize every possible thing a controller could send you to within 100 or so miles of your course each direction on a 1800 mile flight? I'd like to see you memorize 180,000 square miles of airspace on a moments notice.

You should be embarrassed to have written that.

 

[jesse]

You should be embarrassed to have written that.

Why? It's entirely accurate and done everyday by pilots. Going 100 miles off a planned course on a 1800 mile flight is very common. You should be embarrassed as a controller to not realize that

 

[dtuuri]

Today I was off of KJBR direct KSTL...

So not the same situation today, but a similar concept: While on with ZKC, I got a crossing restriction to cross, "40 miles north-west of St. Louis at 9,000."

So, you filed "direct" to the airport? Cleared "as filed"? Cardinal VOR is on the airport, so it could be the controller meant "Cardinal" not "St Louis". There is a fix, LORLE, at 40 DME NW of Cardinal (CSX).

dtuuri

 

[kayoh190]

Why didn't you know there was a Farmington VOR? Did you not familiarize yourself with all available information concerning that flight before you began it?

I'm sorry, this isn't realistic. I'm familiar with the VORs that define my route, and if I fly the same route a bunch, I start to learn more of the surrounding area as well. But I've deviated hundreds of miles for weather before - I'm not going to know the names and identifiers for every off-route fix everywhere I go.

That said I'm *not* against pulling out a chart and figuring it out.