ATC Audio of TNFlyGirl Fatal Accident Released

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Dave Theisen said:
Where I used to teach, we referred to it as “the jet ski talk”, as in maybe you would be better off spending your money on something else.
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When I went to racing school, instructors would sometimes annotate their notes on a student with “OSB.” Other Sports Beckon.
 
As with other teachers, I've had to sit down with pre-Calc students and have 'the talk'. Sorry Alex/Robin/Jim/Tina you will not complete an engineering degree. Now is the time to switch to marketing, hotel/restaurant mgmt, human resources, etc. She had so many instructors, I wonder if any of them had that talk with her along her +100-something hours of primary.
 
This is the problem with telling people “it’s not a competition” and saying everyone is equal.

Competition is a good thing, if for anything it helps those who really suck notice maybe they are in the wrong setting
 
Barrett50 said:
I recall something vaguely a mnemonic about a 'screw up' for Piper trim? As in, when you turn the screw, the plane will go 'up'?
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I have a massive* 1 hour dual in a Cherokee. The instructor said, up the nose, nose up, down the nose, nose down.

When spinning the trim, if the motion is like putting things up your nose, then it’s nose up. If the motion is like taking things down out of your nose, then nose down.

Only works if your in the left seat.

I related this to my friend who owned a Cherokee and he looked at me like I had 3 heads.


* auto correct changed the word I had typed but I decided it was an okay substitute.
 
Hengelo said:
Serious question; I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on television. Why are the autopsy tox reports inadmissible?
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It's not the autopsy report that's inadmissible; its the NTSB report or the conclusions it makes.

49 U.S.C. § 1154(b)(1994). No part of a report of the Board, related to an accident or an investigation of an accident, may be admitted into evidence or used in a civil action for damages resulting from a matter mentioned in the report.
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Basically, a litigant can't use the NTSB as their expert. Litigants can and do hire their own experts, who will gather relevant information -- like the autopsy/tox report -- and form their own conclusions from it to draft their own report, testify and be subject to cross-examination.
 
Justin M said:
When spinning the trim, if the motion is like putting things up your nose, then it’s nose up. If the motion is like taking things down out of your nose, then nose down.
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When I have a loss-of-control accident next week due to screwing up the trim on a go-around, I want everyone here to tell the NTSB that I was distracted by trying to remember which way to put the screwdriver up my nose. :D
 
AvNavCom said:
When I have a loss-of-control accident next week due to screwing up the trim on a go-around, I want everyone here to tell the NTSB that I was distracted by trying to remember which way to put the screwdriver up my nose. :D
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Let’s see now. That was “Tell the NTSB that @AvNavCom was talking about putting something up his nose.” Do I have that right?
 
donjohnston said:
I fail to see any connection or comparison between this accident and the Stella Liebeck lawsuit.
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I think the point was that juries are unpredictable, and sometimes reach seemingly illogical conclusions, not always for the best reasons. @FlightmechH3 would probably argue Liebeck v. McDonalds is a vivid example of that. I'm not ready to scrap the jury system for civil trials because of it, but it doesn't advance the conversation to unilaterally declare an inconvenient fact off-limits for discussion.
 
Half Fast said:
I flew rental Cherokees for a while. The trim works just like a screw. Run the screw into the sky and the nose goes up. Back the screw out of the sky and the nose comes down. Very natural once you think of it that way.
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I owned a Cherokee with the window crank trim and im too dumb to have ever made that connection.
 
DJTorrente said:
I think the point was that juries are unpredictable, and sometimes reach seemingly illogical conclusions, not always for the best reasons. @FlightmechH3 would probably argue Liebeck v. McDonalds is a vivid example of that.
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People who don't understand the law or the facts of the lawsuit are most likely to come to that conclusion. As with most legal conclusions on the Internet.
 
DJTorrente said:
I think the point was that juries are unpredictable, and sometimes reach seemingly illogical conclusions, not always for the best reasons. @FlightmechH3 would probably argue Liebeck v. McDonalds is a vivid example of that. I'm not ready to scrap the jury system for civil trials because of it, but it doesn't advance the conversation to unilaterally declare an inconvenient fact off-limits for discussion.
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Thing with this one is MADD and the like have spent a TON of money on lobbying and advertising to make the masses view having anything in your system and operating a vehicle akin to being their devil themself.

I’d wager the angle that she was under the influence when she flew would yield a predictable result with the average non inquisitive type person
 
Barrett50 said:
As with other teachers, I've had to sit down with pre-Calc students and have 'the talk'. Sorry Alex/Robin/Jim/Tina you will not complete an engineering degree. Now is the time to switch to marketing, hotel/restaurant mgmt, human resources, etc. She had so many instructors, I wonder if any of them had that talk with her along her +100-something hours of primary.
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The world needs ditchdiggers, too.

The world also needs teachers/instructors who aren’t afraid to say so.

A lot of instructors are kids with little life experience who still think that anyone can be anything they want if they just try for long enough. Cold truth - few people have what it takes to be a pilot (including some pilots), and a lot more people would be alive today if CFIs had the balls to say so to those students who are headed down that road.
 
I think we are at the point where we can close this thread and move on.

Thoroughly discussed and reviewed.

No new info available and we all know what happened and how to prevent another such accident.

May she and her Dad RIP. Time is now for her remaining family to close this matter and move on.
 
Is that Charlton Heston? Somehow Moses, the ape movie, and Omega Man all blend together to me.
 
ateamer said:
Cold truth - few people have what it takes to be a pilot (including some pilots), and a lot more people would be alive today if CFIs had the balls to say so to those students who are headed down that road.
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Really? I'd bet 70% of the populace would make reasonably good pilots with decent training and by maintaining currency.
 
I'm not sure if this one has been posted yet. Among other things, he quotes disturbing things that some of her instructors told the NTSB, and also lists the disturbing list of medications (which PoA has previously noted).

 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not sure if this one has been posted yet. Among other things, he quotes disturbing things that some of her instructors told the NTSB, and also lists the disturbing list of medications (which PoA has previously noted).

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Shocked. He quotes everything in the NTSB report. Hoover is insufferable.
 
I learned a bit from the Hoover vid. I didn't know she broke up her Piper before buying the Deb. And, there's no evidence from the report that she got endorsed for HP/Complex? That - is a huge oversight. Some of the comments were worthwhile: "How many more Jenny's are out there?" Apparently there were a number of friends who were offered rides and declined. Which led to her cutting them out of her circle of friends. Sadly prophetic.
 
Another hole, in the line up of the Swiss cheese model. Augering in a nose dragger while taxiing takes a particular set of skills. Again, weirdly prophetic.
 
kyleb said:
I'm a people person.
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KE5BM said:
I wish I had as much faith in the general populace as you do.
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I bet I can split the difference with a mis-quote of Bear Bryant - Everybody has the will to win, not everybody has the will to practice enough to win. I honestly believe most people could fly, given the opportunity AND if they put the work into it. But most people seem to look for shortcuts.
 
Barrett50 said:
And, there's no evidence from the report that she got endorsed for HP/Complex? That - is a huge oversight.
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It's not an oversight. Her logbook was damaged in the crash. There were videos on her page getting her HP endorsement in a Dakota, and flying the Bonzanza with an instructor for 10 hours to satisfy insurance requirements, which would have probably required a complex endorsement as well.
 
Barrett50 said:
Another hole, in the line up of the Swiss cheese model. Augering in a nose dragger while taxiing takes a particular set of skills. Again, weirdly prophetic.
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Taxiing? You mean hard landing?
 
dmspilot said:
It's not an oversight. Her logbook was damaged in the crash. There were videos on her page getting her HP endorsement in a Dakota, and flying the Bonzanza with an instructor for 10 hours to satisfy insurance requirements, which would have probably required a complex endorsement as well.
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This is what the Final Report says: The pilot’s logbook was found at the accident site but was heavily damaged. The most recent logbook pages that were not damaged revealed the pilot had logged 390.3 hours total time as of August 14, 2023, about 3 months and 3 weeks before the accident flight. None of the pilot’s logbook endorsements were contained within the undamaged segment of logbook that was reviewed.

No where does the final report confirm or deny that she had either complex/high performance endorsements. You are making the assumption she had them, which I would agree is very likely but we do not know with 100% certainty. The NTSB leaves out this important element - did she have the proper endorsements (plural) to fly the aircraft, especially considering they seem to have been in contact with her CFIs (2 redacted in final report). As you mentioned, a few videos she filmed were of her high performance endorsement training but nothing on a complex endorsement. Logically if she completed the training in the same aircraft she could have received both endorsements, but again we have no certainty of that from the available information. I would say she likely had both but that's merely my opinion.

From a logical perspective I can see questioning this uncertainty considering her blatant disregard for the regulations related to the many no-fly drugs she was taking. I wouldn't go to bat for her...

I would be willing to make the assumption that she was taking the no-fly drugs and didn't reveal them on her #2 medical application. I'll give her the benefits of doubt on her #1 medical that she wasn't juiced up on drugs. She started training in 2021, she was 44 at time of crash, thus medical (assuming 3rd class) was valid for 24 months. Lot's of assumptions here but...
 
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DeltaCharlie172 said:
The NTSB leaves out this important element
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I'm still not sure of the issue here. The NTSB did address it, by saying the information is not available because the logbook was damaged. Unless you mean they should have tried harder to investigate whether she had obtained the endorsements? They are a government agency and have limited resources though, I'm not sure what difference it would make. They tried. The instructors interviewed didn't give her the complex/HP training, those were different ones.
 
dmspilot said:
Taxiing? You mean hard landing?
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I think the video, including a still picture of the Piper, she ran over a culvert, or something while taxiing and ripped the nose gear off, and I suppose wrecked the prop, and nose area? I don't want to go through it again.
 
Bill said:
Nick Nolte
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He looks better in that AI presentation than his mugshot after being clipped for DUI in 2002. I don't recall the details of the arrest, but I think he was also charged with Hawaiian shirt abuse.

:biggrin:

2d16d230-fba7-11e7-bf46-09485f92fd92_nolte-mug.jpg
 
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dmspilot said:
It's not an oversight. Her logbook was damaged in the crash. There were videos on her page getting her HP endorsement in a Dakota, and flying the Bonzanza with an instructor for 10 hours to satisfy insurance requirements, which would have probably required a complex endorsement as well.
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Ok, I guess that's enough evidence to resolve it. If there's video of her with a CFI in the Deb(Bo) the NTSB likely talked with that CFI and confirmed the endorsement. My bad.
 
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