At A Cross Roads

Route 1 or 2

  • Route 1

    Votes: 24 66.7%

  • Route 2

    Votes: 10 27.8%

  • Just want to see results...

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • Total voters
    36
C

Cook1993

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 20, 2023
Messages
12
Display Name
Display name:
Mooney Pit
Hello, fellow airplane owners, soon-to-be owners, owners with buyer's remorse, or folks on the fence about buying...

We've found ourselves at a fork in the road with our Mooney M20. After a long battle with engine problems, our Lyco O-360-A1D has finally bit the dust and we're presented with a couple of routes to take.

Route 1: Complete overhaul on our original 1961 narrow deck O-360-A1D, reset the TBO, new cylinders, and accessories. Out the door $25,000 USD.
Route 2: Factory Reman, zero time, new logbooks, modern spec, warrantied engine. Out the door $40,000 USD after core return.

Here's the question: Lead times aside, when comparing apples to apples, in the eyes of a buyer, is the factory reman worth the extra 15 grand compared to an overhaul from a reputable engine shop? Please only answer the question as presented. Is the factory reman worth the cost compared to an overhaul from a value perspective? Do not consider lead times or shop quality. Just assume the overhaul shop is a reputable and high-quality shop.
 
In a single engine airplane - I would always default to route 2. I will spare no expense on my engine maintenance when I'm trusting it with my & my family's life. My engine is a 1989 Factory Reman and in my A&P's words is the best running engine of its type he's ever seen - and he's not the only one to say so. When this engine starts showing signs of wear I will go with factory new or factory reman. I get it, there are no guarantees - factory engines have problems all the time, but from what I've seen I'd choose a factory option vs. the persistent variability you seem to get with overhaul shops.

As far as resale value goes? Yeah you probably won't get your money back, but if it's a plane you plan on keeping I'd still spend the money.
 
* inhales deeply* but that wasn't the premise of the question... The question is strictly a value question not a safety/peace of mind question...
 
When they receive the core what are the chances of getting upcharges for it?

What else needs to be done at the same time? Engine hoses? Engine Mount (steel structure)? Rubber Engine Mounts? Mixture, Prop, Throttle Control cables? Is the oil cooler good? Prop good? Exhaust good? Baffles good? Wiring up front in good shape?

Only hindsight knows the answer to your question. How many total hours are on it? Are you planning on keeping the airplane long or dumping it?
 
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Unless your selling the plane, why does value matter?

Second, your quotes seem low. We’re finding field overhauls from reputable engine shops for an O-320 to be in the low-to-mid $30s and a FREMAN in the $50s.
 
At the risk of * inhales deeply *:
At my airport a couple months ago, a new factory replacement engine for a 4 seat airplane had severe pitting in the cylinders and cams on an engine a couple months old and 25 hours, discovered by borescope at an oil change. The factory immediately sent out a new engine with installation costs at no additional cost ($75,000).

Because of this incident, a second new engine on a different aircraft had a borescope at six months and 30 hours. This borescope has corrosion in all cylinders, and this is a dry climate. I don’t know will happen with this engine and I’m guessing 6 months is too late for the factory to assume responsibility. Who borescopes a brand new engine, anyway?

The vote from this A&P (and mine) would definitely be to use a trusted overhaul shop rather than the factory.
And borescope all new engines and overhauls before installation.
We still don’t know if these are isolated incidents or not and the assumption of a new factory or factory re-manufactured engine being better than a quality rebuild, might be incorrect.
 
No, from a buyer’s perspective.

How would I price the difference when all other conditions are also taken into account in the asking and selling price? It was not a line item or itemized as a premium or discount for engine reman vs OH.
 
Craig Valentine said:
At the risk of * inhales deeply *:
At my airport a couple months ago, a new factory replacement engine for a 4 seat airplane had severe pitting in the cylinders and cams on an engine a couple months old and 25 hours, discovered by borescope at an oil change. The factory immediately sent out a new engine with installation costs at no additional cost ($75,000).

Because of this incident, a second new engine on a different aircraft had a borescope at six months and 30 hours. This borescope has corrosion in all cylinders, and this is a dry climate. I don’t know will happen with this engine and I’m guessing 6 months is too late for the factory to assume responsibility. Who borescopes a brand new engine, anyway?

The vote from this A&P (and mine) would definitely be to use a trusted overhaul shop rather than the factory.
And borescope all new engines and overhauls before installation.
We still don’t know if these are isolated incidents or not and the assumption of a new factory or factory re-manufactured engine being better than a quality rebuild, might be incorrect.
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You don't get a *inhales deeply* as you stuck to the premise of the question and didn't insert useless opinions into the answer that are irrelevant. Thank you for your thoughtful answer you bring up some good points.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
No, from a buyer’s perspective.

How would I price the difference when all other conditions are also taken into account in the asking and selling price? It was not a line item or itemized as a premium or discount for engine reman vs OH.
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Great point thanks for sticking to the premise of the question! This thread is to convince my bonehead partner that I'm right about buyers not valuing factory reman engines enough to justify the cost of doing it over an overhaul.
 
Cook1993 said:
* inhales deeply* but that wasn't the premise of the question... The question is strictly a value question not a safety/peace of mind question...
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Then you need to define what value means to YOU.

To me, safety/piece of mind IS part of the value. I will always pay more for safety and piece of mind.

If by value you mean resale, the FRM is going to be worth more if you sell. Maybe not $15K.

Where are you getting a quality overhaul for $25K? FYI, current reman price looks to be more like $44K.
 
Pinecone said:
Then you need to define what value means to YOU.
Pinecone said:
Then you need to define what value means to YOU.

To me, safety/piece of mind IS part of the value. I will always pay more for safety and piece of mind.

If by value you mean resale, the FRM is going to be worth more if you sell. Maybe not $15K.

Where are you getting a quality overhaul for $25K? FYI, current reman price looks to be more like $44K.
Click to expand...


To me, safety/piece of mind IS part of the value. I will always pay more for safety and piece of mind.

If by value you mean resale, the FRM is going to be worth more if you sell. Maybe not $15K.

Where are you getting a quality overhaul for $25K? FYI, current reman price looks to be more like $44K.
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Market value not whatever helps you sleep at night.
 
Cook1993 said:
* inhales deeply* but that wasn't the premise of the question... The question is strictly a value question not a safety/peace of mind question...
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You said “…in the eyes of a buyer…” Safety/peace of mind is very likely to be in a buyers eye. I don’t think you can get a hard $ answer to this. Best you can do is guess how many buyers it’s worth it to and how many it’s not
 
I went route #2 (factory reman) three years ago. It was my first major engine work since I purchased this 1978 airplane in 2012.

Peace of mind was a major factor for me. The old engine ran fine, but it had a long and complicated history. Having an engine fresh from the factory with a new log was valuable to me, an engine of which I will now know the entire operational history. So when I upgraded from the IO-520 to the IO-550, I got a factory reman instead of upgrading my old engine to the larger model.

- Martin
 
luvflyin said:
You said “…in the eyes of a buyer…” Safety/peace of mind is very likely to be in a buyers eye. I don’t think you can get a hard $ answer to this.
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ehhh that's fair. The poll still leads in favor of No, it doesn't present enough value to justify the cost.
 
Martin Pauly said:
I went route #2 (factory reman) three years ago. It was my first major engine work since I purchased this 1978 airplane in 2012.

Peace of mind was a major factor for me. The old engine ran fine, but it had a long and complicated history. Having an engine fresh from the factory with a new log was valuable to me, an engine of which I will now know the entire operational history. So when I upgraded from the IO-520 to the IO-550, I got a factory reman instead of upgrading my old engine to the larger model.

- Martin
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Fair point but you kept the plane and you didn't view the 2 options from the eyes of a buyer. You viewed it from the eyes of someone keeping the plane long term
 
Where are you getting an overhaul for 25K these days?
 
Cook1993 said:
Here's the question: Lead times aside, when comparing apples to apples, in the eyes of a buyer, is the factory reman worth the extra 15 grand compared to an overhaul from a reputable engine shop? Please only answer the question as presented. Is the factory reman worth the cost compared to an overhaul from a value perspective? Do not consider lead times or shop quality. Just assume the overhaul shop is a reputable and high-quality shop.
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FWIW, I'm about to take delivery of an overhauled engine from a long-time, well-respected engine shop. To me, the difference in price wasn't worth it, especially because at this stage of my flying career, it's very unlikely I will be flying long enough to take the engine to TBO.
 
Cook1993 said:
Fair point but you kept the plane and you didn't view the 2 options from the eyes of a buyer. You viewed it from the eyes of someone keeping the plane long term
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You are correct, my statement was from the perspective of a plane owner who wants to keep the plane for a while.

I've re-read your original post twice; it wasn't clear to me that you were planning on selling it soon after the engine upgrade.

If you are going to sell it, then just sell it - leave the engine choice to the buyer.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
You are correct, my statement was from the perspective of a plane owner who wants to keep the plane for a while.

I've re-read your original post twice; it wasn't clear to me that you were planning on selling it soon after the engine upgrade.

If you are going to sell it, then just sell it - leave the engine choice to the buyer.

- Martin
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might be what we end up doing.
 
Martin Pauly said:
I went route #2 (factory reman) three years ago. It was my first major engine work since I purchased this 1978 airplane in 2012.

Peace of mind was a major factor for me. The old engine ran fine, but it had a long and complicated history. Having an engine fresh from the factory with a new log was valuable to me, an engine of which I will now know the entire operational history. So when I upgraded from the IO-520 to the IO-550, I got a factory reman instead of upgrading my old engine to the larger model.

- Martin
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Yah, but we all know we all helped you pay for that factory reman and upgrade from our YouTube views of your channel! :cheers:
 
Cook1993 said:
This thread is to convince my bonehead partner that I'm right about buyers not valuing factory reman engines enough to justify the cost of doing it over an overhaul.
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0-time engine, whether it be reman or overhaul, says to me things:

1. Beware of infant mortality.
2. Seller probably cheaped out knowing the plane is getting dumped on the market. Ever watch a home flipping show on HGTV?

My preference would be for either mid time or a runout. With a runout, there‘s less question where my money is going.

I’m probably not the only one to think that way, but I also wouldn’t doubt that there are probably even more that go Gaga when they see zero time.
 
Not what you asked, but I'd value a wide deck engine more than a narrow deck one. Of the two proposed choices, only one will get you that.

If the engine still runs and the aircraft is airworthy I'd recommend selling it as is and let the next owner decide what they want to do.
 
asicer said:
0-time engine, whether it be reman or overhaul, says to me things:

1. Beware of infant mortality.
2. Seller probably cheaped out knowing the plane is getting dumped on the market. Ever watch a home flipping show on HGTV?

My preference would be for either mid time or a runout. With a runout, there‘s less question where my money is going.

I’m probably not the only one to think that way, but I also wouldn’t doubt that there are probably even more that go Gaga when they see zero time.
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Good point...OP @Cook1993 you planning to sell right away, or after a few years/few hundred hours?
 
Cook1993 said:
Tim's Aircraft Engine in Long Beach, CA
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I spoke with Tim before I decided on a shop for my engine. He told me that he might be retiring soon and wouldn’t be around to support the engine. Did he tell you the same?
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
I spoke with Tim before I decided on a shop for my engine. He told me that he might be retiring soon and wouldn’t be around to support the engine. Did he tell you the same?
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he did not say that to us. Seems very much still in business
 
I just went through this. I ended up cutting bait and selling my airplane with a broken engine as-is, and let the buyer assume the price risk of whatever they want to do wrt overhaul choices going forward. You'd think that'd tank the liquidity of the sale, and so did I.... thing closed in 12 days from listing. Turns out when you price things right, things move. Go figure. In fairness, I spent 2 highly frustrating/angering months trying to get shops to respond when I was still thinking about keeping it.

Economics of the price-risk I didn't want to incur [just to sell] aside, I'd be lying if I said the lack of vendor/mx provider traction wasn't a big final nail in the coffin for me.

As to value, a very relative question of course, which is why you're getting rather animated responses on here. But you can add me to the list that doesn't value name brand as a buyer. I had a long dissertation ready to qualify my opinion, but then I realized I'd be screaming at clouds by posting on POA, and the tribes and cults are gonna circle the wagons and plug their ears anyways, so eff it. TLDR: To each their own.

I sincerely empathize. Frankly, i'm elated to no longer be burdened by such question. I wish you good luck moving forward on this decision, and happy holidays!
 
Cook1993 said:
ehhh that's fair. The poll still leads in favor of No, it doesn't present enough value to justify the cost.
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It’s a small cross section of the overall potential pool of buyers should you decide to sell someday. But in my experience here on POA, a knowledgeable cross section. But sometimes ya just gotta roll the dice.
 
luvflyin said:
It’s a small cross section of the overall potential pool of buyers should you decide to sell someday. But in my experience here on POA, a knowledgeable cross section. But sometimes ya just gotta roll the dice.
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Indeed. But then again, sometimes the best hand...is knowing when to fold 'em.

We can't make the ultimate decision for the OP, all we can do is gratuitously chastise him when he obviously gets it wrong; aka Monday night are ye ol' POA gathering of recalcitrant minds. :biggrin:
 
I just finished mounting my overhauled AEIO-360 last week and did an initial run and leak check. Hope to become a test pilot tomorrow.

I never seriously considered FREM, mainly because I heard Lycoming was still experiencing significant delays from COVID when I made the decision 19 months ago.

As a buyer, if presented with two identical aircraft, one with a field OH and one with an FREM, I would pay more for the FREM but probably not 15K more. However, if presented with the same two aircraft 3-5 years later, I would probably not be willing to pay more for the FREM.
 
If your engine kills you does its market value really matter?

I would have to sigh deeply at anyone that takes safety / peace of mind out of the equation.

However, I voted option 1 because I think a factory reman can come from together just as well as an overhaul can.
 
I'm an option 1 guy but I'm a mechanic so I have near complete control over the final product.

I once received 4 brand new cylinder kits and visually inspected them before the UPS truck drove away. Two of of the four already had corroded barrels, the retailer replaced them at no cost but it was a small hassle shipping the corroded ones back.

No one really knows all the pitfalls of either option ahead of time. My engine has been in pieces for two months and so far we have not anything backordered but I bought cylinder kits, camshaft kit, oil pump kit, connecting rod bolts & nuts and a bunch of stuff a few year ago, some of that stuff would be backordered today.
 
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