Asking passengers to sign a waiver?

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sixpacker

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Sixpacker
I fly a fair number of Angel Flights and as part of the process the passengers sign a waiver and release of liability.

I'm a PPL and just fly for pleasure.

So this brings up a question: If it is advisable to get Angel Flight passengers to sign a waiver surely the same logic applies to other passengers? I'm not talking about family members: I'm talking about the buddy who flies with you whose wife is not crazy about him flying with you and you know will sue the crap out of you or your estate if something goes wrong. I've often wondered whether I should do this and am curious what others do in this regard. Does the waiver and release of liability even protect anyway?
 
sixpacker said:
I'm talking about the buddy who flies with you whose wife is not crazy about him flying with you and you know will sue the crap out of you or your estate if something goes wrong.
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In this case I doubt a waiver is going to help, just don't take the guy flying if you think the family is going to sue you into the ground.
 
Bill Jennings said:
In this case I doubt a waiver is going to help, just don't take the guy flying if you think the family is going to sue you into the ground.
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That's what I understand. Someone signing a waiver does nothing to limit the rights of surviving family to sue.
 
Bill Jennings said:
In this case I doubt a waiver is going to help, just don't take the guy flying if you think the family is going to sue you into the ground.
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Yea. If the guy or his family can't accept the risks that are involved then I don't want to take him flying.
 
Don't need legal papers to clutter up my sunny day. If you can't fly a passenger without a waiver, fly alone.
 
jordane93 said:
Yea. If the guy or his family can't accept the risks that are involved then I don't want to take him flying.
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Serious question: how do you propose to assess whether a potential passenger -- or her family -- "can't accept the risks involved"?

Not picking on you Jordan, as a few other posts said basically the same thing.

(sixpacker I have often wondered this myself and look forward to some deeper answers ITT.)
 
mrtyler said:
Serious question: how do you propose to assess whether a potential passenger -- or her family -- "can't accept the risks involved"?
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Yeah, this.

Realistically, you have no way to know what surviving family might do faced with the reality of losing a primary or sole earner, or primary child-carer for that matter. Maybe also after having discovered that their life insurance policy isn't going to pay out either - could be wrong, but I believe some policies won't cover even passengers in GA accidents.

IANAL, but your pre-crash belief or their pre-crash claims that they 'accept the risks that are involved' may not be very much help.
 
mrtyler said:
Serious question: how do you propose to assess whether a potential passenger -- or her family -- "can't accept the risks involved"?

Not picking on you Jordan, as a few other posts said basically the same thing.

(sixpacker I have often wondered this myself and look forward to some deeper answers ITT.)
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I agree. It's a tough line between being cautious and accepting the risks. I really have no good answer:D
 
We use a "ride along waiver" when conducting Part 91 passenger flights. There's a whole slew of people listed on it that release us from liability. Will that hold up in court if I'm found grossly negligent? Doubt it but it's better than nothing. Just do a search for "flight ride along waiver" and you'll see plenty of examples out there.
 
But GA is safe?:rofl:
Bring a pistol. If you survive a crash that kills passengers shoot yourself. Honor and all, plus it takes care of all that ugly liability stuff.:rolleyes2::lol:
 
We have any non aviation student/person fill out a liability release form on their first flight.

It's better then it use to be. When we first got the waiver everyone had to fill it out for every flight, as a passenger. After about six months of paperwork nightmares, the heads finally learned that only non aviation students needed to fill it out. I was told the company lawyer had a good laugh when he heard.
 
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ARFlyer said:
We have any non aviation student/person fill out a liability release form on their first flight.

It's better then it use to be. When we first got the waiver everyone had to fill it out for every flight, as a passenger. After about six months of paperwork nightmares, the heads finally learned that only non aviation students needed to fill it out. I was told the company lawyer had a good laugh when he heard.
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Of course if you are taking a lesson at a flight school then a waiver would be a good idea. But taking up a friend and having them sign a waiver is just too much hassle IMO
 
I once did ask someone to sign a waiver. It was someone who asked me to join me on a flight and to use it as an opportunity to transport his dogs somewhere. I'd have done it for his dogs but wasn't too thrilled about him since he was quite wealthy with a family owned business and had often talked about legal action the family was pursuing against others for relatively minor issues... So I asked him to sign a waiver and then he took that as a sign that perhaps flying is dangerous :lol: and decided to back out. Mission accomplished! I offered to take his dogs anyway (no waiver required) but that was not palatable to him either.

Otherwise my strategy is to get as much liability insurance as I can with additional umbrella policy and hope for the best. I agree it is too much of a hassle to have to do this kind of paperwork for fun flying. Plan A is to NOT crash but Plan B is to have as good insurance as I can get.
 
sixpacker said:
I once did ask someone to sign a waiver. It was someone who asked me to join me on a flight and to use it as an opportunity to transport his dogs somewhere. I'd have done it for his dogs but wasn't too thrilled about him since he was quite wealthy with a family owned business and had often talked about legal action the family was pursuing against others for relatively minor issues... So I asked him to sign a waiver and then he took that as a sign that perhaps flying is dangerous :lol: and decided to back out. Mission accomplished! I offered to take his dogs anyway (no waiver required) but that was not palatable to him either.

Otherwise my strategy is to get as much liability insurance as I can with additional umbrella policy and hope for the best. I agree it is too much of a hassle to have to do this kind of paperwork for fun flying. Plan A is to NOT crash but Plan B is to have as good insurance as I can get.
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I don't think an umbrella covers GA.
 
You need to run this past an attorney in your state, because the answer varies from state to state, including some states where such "waivers" are considered contrary to public policy and this invalid on their face. Same for pulling one off the internet -- if it wasn't constructed IAW your state's laws, it is a unlikely to be of any value in court. You could use one as a starting point and then get a local attorney to build one off that template, but that's about all it's good for.
 
I don't think you can get a passenger to waive his/her rights to sue if their injury is your fault and I seem to have read somewhere that it is always the pilots fault.
 
Think of it this way.

You decide to take me up as a passenger. You get me to sign a waiver. We crash and I'm killed.

My wife now sues you. She cannot sue on behalf of my estate, as I've waived my rights, but she can sue for her own damages, including loss of future income and alienation of affection (I'm just that nice a guy!)

OK, so now you make my wife sign too. Now, my wife gets herself appointed as guardian ad leitem of my 11 year old daughter and voila...sues you! My daughter can't waive her rights, she's 11 and no court on earth would uphold her waiver as competent. So you're liable regardless.

Best advice: have adequate insurance.
 
ClimbnSink said:
But GA is safe?:rofl:
Bring a pistol. If you survive a crash that kills passengers shoot yourself. Honor and all, plus it takes care of all that ugly liability stuff.:rolleyes2::lol:
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It has been reported that Thomas FitzStephen did essentially that (drowned instead of using a gun, but...)
 
Any liability waiver is just about worthless in a court of law, so why bother. For example doing something "stupid" can be found to be "gross negligence" and the waiver can be thrown out.

I take people flying all the time just for the fun of it. If it is not fun I don't do it. The liability concerns don't worry me. I live in Nebraska and there is only compesetory damages. Punitive damages are not allowed by law. No "lottery lawsuits" here, and rarely they award attorney's fees. Keeps the docket fairly clean of frivolous lawsuits.
 
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That seems like it would take the fun out of it and present to your passenger that you feel something could happen. Which obviously it could..just explain the dangers to them. If they continue cool if not oh well. Or just fly solo all the time and don't have to worry bout passengers suing you...just the people on the ground.
 
Just out of curiousity, what are you going to do with that sheet of paper once your passenger signs it? Run back to you car? Call your wife and let her know about the waiver in case something happens? If nothing else, from a logistical standpoint it seems pointless. My advice is the same as Rons though...talk to your attorney, not SGOTI.
 
Brad Z said:
Just out of curiousity, what are you going to do with that sheet of paper once your passenger signs it? Run back to you car? Call your wife and let her know about the waiver in case something happens? If nothing else, from a logistical standpoint it seems pointless. My advice is the same as Rons though...talk to your attorney, not SGOTI.
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I know what my attorney will say... Don't fly anyone! Including Angel Flights!

If we try to eliminate all risks we will lead very boring lives.

On your question of what to do with the piece of paper, with my local Angel Flights we either fax the paper to a dedicated AF number or we use the electronic version on the iPad (or other mobile device). That one is the most convenient since it then instantly gets digitally transferred to AF to be kept on record there.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It has been reported that Thomas FitzStephen did essentially that (drowned instead of using a gun, but...)
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Did they have Maritime personal injury lawyers back then...?? :lol:

On second thought, there were only two rules back then:

1. The king makes the rules.
2. Its good to be the king.
 
Geico266 said:
Any liability waiver is just about worthless in a court of law, so why bother. For example doing something "stupid" can be found to be "gross negligence" and the waiver can be thrown out.
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I think it goes too far to say all waivers are worthless. I'll say this: It is highly unlikely that any waiver, no matter how well drafted, or how enforceable it is ultimately found to be, will prevent you from getting sued by anyone who wasn't willing to forego the lawsuit absent the waiver in the first place. Since the American civil tort system lacks loser pays, even a pilot who does secure the waiver is going to be sued anyway, and is going to have to pay the legal costs of defending the suit, including determining the enforceability of the waiver. So no waiver can effectively protect you from being sued, and to many that's it own punishment, regardless of the eventual outcome.
 
DJTorrente said:
I think it goes too far to say all waivers are worthless. I'll say this: It is highly unlikely that any waiver, no matter how well drafted, or how enforceable it is ultimately found to be, will prevent you from getting sued by anyone who wasn't willing to forego the lawsuit absent the waiver in the first place. Since the American civil tort system lacks loser pays, even a pilot who does secure the waiver is going to be sued anyway, and is going to have to pay the legal costs of defending the suit, including determining the enforceability of the waiver. So no waiver can effectively protect you from being sued, and to many that's it own punishment, regardless of the eventual outcome.
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I am just going to say that this is not true in my state. It is not that hard in my state to draft a waiver that will be effective to waive any claim, as well as derivative claims (such as spouse or dependent claims). The law on this issue varies drastically from state to state. I note that you are in New Jersey, which, to my uneducated impression, tends to lean left. Right leaning states tend to be more accepting of limitations on tort liability.
 
sixpacker said:
I know what my attorney will say... Don't fly anyone! Including Angel Flights!
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Hopefully yout attorney might explain why, giving you the necessary information to make an informed decision yourself whether it is worth it to take the risk of flying others.

sixpacker said:
If we try to eliminate all risks we will lead very boring lives.
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Agreed, 100%.

sixpacker said:
On your question of what to do with the piece of paper, with my local Angel Flights we either fax the paper to a dedicated AF number or we use the electronic version on the iPad (or other mobile device). That one is the most convenient since it then instantly gets digitally transferred to AF to be kept on record there.
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So what would you do on your personal flight? I just can't imagine inviting someone to come along for a flight, then asking them to sign a legal document and excusing myself while I scan/fax/copy/photograph the document and transmit it to someone who will take care of my financial affairs if the flight ends in a catastrophe.

I understand why Angel Flight does it, as they are trying to minimize their liability in the process.
 
Brad Z said:
So what would you do on your personal flight? I just can't imagine inviting someone to come along for a flight, then asking them to sign a legal document and excusing myself while I scan/fax/copy/photograph the document and transmit it to someone who will take care of my financial affairs if the flight ends in a catastrophe.

I understand why Angel Flight does it, as they are trying to minimize their liability in the process.
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For what it's worth, I either have my passenger(s) fill out my one-page waiver in the car on the way (assuming they are riding with me to the airport), or near my car (in the parking lot at the airport).
I have it on a clipboard with a pen and everything ready-to-go and just leave it in my car after they are done filling it out.

Never been a big deal and it takes only a couple minutes.
 
Zeldman said:
Did they have Maritime personal injury lawyers back then...?? :lol:

On second thought, there were only two rules back then:

1. The king makes the rules.
2. Its good to be the king.
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Except that Henry's only legitimate male heir was on the ship and when Henry died England went into the period of history often referred to as "the anarchy" in spite of the fact that the King had made the rule that his only legitimate daughter was to rule.
 
dell30rb said:
Get good insurance.
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The insurance limits I've seen are laughably low. As a renter, the most I can find is $100,000 per person and $1 Million for the whole accident.

Where can I get $2 Million per person?
 
G-Man said:
The insurance limits I've seen are laughably low. As a renter, the most I can find is $100,000 per person and $1 Million for the whole accident.

Where can I get $2 Million per person?
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Amen. I've decided to never fly any passenger except an Angel Flight or club member (I'm in an ownership club) because of the low liability limits.

I get 100K per person from my club's Avemco policy, and $100k from my non-owner policy.

I'm fix'n to add a third policy, the AOPA renter's policy, which at least covers non-passengers up to the total policy limit.
 
First I don't fly sue happy pansies

Second, better off to be broke on paper, lawyers ain't going to bother going after someone if they think it's too much work for too little reward.
 
JimNtexas said:
I get 100K per person from my club's Avemco policy, and $100k from my non-owner policy.

I'm fix'n to add a third policy, the AOPA renter's policy, which at least covers non-passengers up to the total policy limit.
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Are you sure you can stack limits?
Don't most policies declare themselves excess, with any other policies primary?
Definitely don't think a carrier will issue multiple policies to you.
 
cgrab said:
I don't think you can get a passenger to waive his/her rights to sue if their injury is your fault and I seem to have read somewhere that it is always the pilots fault.
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It's not an absolute yes or no either way -- the answer varies between states due to differences in state law. You really have to ask a lawyer about the law in your state, and realize that if you wreck in another state, you may get sued there and the answer may be something else.
 
Geico266 said:
Any liability waiver is just about worthless in a court of law, so why bother.
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Again, that's not absolutely true, and a properly crafted exculpatory contract may be very useful in some jurisdictions under some circumstances -- so ask a lawyer in yours before you make a decision one way or the other.
 
sixpacker said:
I know what my attorney will say... Don't fly anyone! Including Angel Flights!
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Then get another attorney who provides quality legal advice instead of "just say no". You want an attorney who will explain the risks and how they vary depending on circumstances, and how best to manage them, not just treat you like a parent treats a small child.
 
G-Man said:
Are you sure you can stack limits?
Don't most policies declare themselves excess, with any other policies primary?
Definitely don't think a carrier will issue multiple policies to you.
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I seem to recall that stacking is state dependent.
 
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