Arrival vs Departure procedure

jssmith.lh

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I'm planning a flight from KGTU to KSSF. They're close enough that the BNDIA2.BNDIA departure pretty much overlaps with CWK.MARCS1 arrival. Which would you choose and why?

BNDIA2.BNDIA
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CWK.MARCS1
upload_2020-10-25_18-19-15.png
 
I wouldn't choose either. I see SIDs and STARs as canned ATC instructions, not "preferred IFR" or TEC routes. It's ATC's prerogative to give those instructions or not, not mine. I don't typically include them when I file an IFR flight plan.

I might look at them to get an idea what I might expect. Looking at your pics, I'd probably file GARDS direct (its straighter) unless I looked at commonly cleared. ATC routes in one of the apps or sites which display them and saw something different.
 
I was thinking direct MARCS direct KSSF. If they want to assign you the arrival they will.
 
I don’t think you are going to be the one deciding. But yeah, ya gotta file sumpin. They seem to give BNDIA2.BINDIA a lot. GARDS V17 SAT even more, no SID. STAR’s don’t seem to be used much. This according to Foreflight’s history of Clearances given.
 
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Remarks section NO SID NO STAR, problem solved.
 
Some old silliness. Once upon a time, More than 30 years ago*, SIDs and STARs were in a separate book than approach plates and pilots would add "no SID no STAR" to flight plan comments to indicate they didn't have the book.

For some strange reason it hung on even after the paper plates were consolidated. I guess there were (and still are) those who prefer to take down and manually enter a full route clearance longhand to seeing it nicely displayed on a chart, even with electronic charts and EFBs and panel avionics which allow you to load them by name.

(* I don't know how long ago but pretty sure they were already consolidated when I was working on the rating.)
 
Some old silliness. Once upon a time, More than 30 years ago, SIDs and STARs were in a separate book than approach plates and pilots would add "no SID no STAR" to flight plan comments to indicate they didn't have the book.

For some strange reason it hung on even after the paper plates were consolidated. I guess there were (and still are) those who prefer to take down and manually enter a full route clearance longhand to seeing it nicely displayed on a chart, even with electronic charts and EFBs and panel avionics which allow you to load them by name.

That is what I was gonna say. I'd rather plug XXX.XXXXX1 into my FMS/GPS than having them read every single waypoint on the arrival, and then have to enter each separately. Saying "No SID/STAR" doesn't mean they are going to give you direct to the airport.
 
That is what I was gonna say. I'd rather plug XXX.XXXXX1 into my FMS/GPS than having them read every single waypoint on the arrival, and then have to enter each separately. Saying "No SID/STAR" doesn't mean they are going to give you direct to the airport.
Well, before GPS and even in the early days of GPS, you had to enter them manually anyway, but at least you had a chart to assist rather than confirming the spelling of waypoints when were in unfamiliar territory.

Story: I had a friend some years back who complained about getting a SID after putting "No SIDs" in the remarks. When they gave him the SID anyway, he said, "I filed No SIDs." He was upset when the controller replied, "OK. I'll read it to you." Even more upset when, once enroute, they gave him direct to an intermediate waypoint - it was on the SID but not part of the longhand clearance and not enroute chart.

:D
 
Well, before GPS and even in the early days of GPS, you had to enter them manually anyway, but at least you had a chart to assist rather than confirming the spelling of waypoints when were in unfamiliar territory.

Story: I had a friend some years back who complained about getting a SID after putting "No SIDs" in the remarks. When they gave him the SID anyway, he said, "I filed No SIDs." He was upset when the controller replied, "OK. I'll read it to you." Even more upset when, once enroute, they gave him direct to an intermediate waypoint - it was on the SID but not part of the longhand clearance and not enroute chart.

:D

Before GPS navigators there was nothing to ‘enter’ them into. You wrote clearances down on paper with a pen and ‘navigated’ them with CDI’s and such. Yeah, the big iron dudes had FMS but even that don’t go back forever.
 
Before GPS navigators there was nothing to ‘enter’ them into. You wrote clearances down on paper with a pen and ‘navigated’ them with CDI’s and such. Yeah, the big iron dudes had FMS but even that don’t go back forever.
Yeah. When I said "enter them manually" I was referring to putting the odd radial/distance fixes in an VOR-based RNAV box. But yes, even that was one at a time entry/navigation.
 
Find the logical common point shared by the two procedures. File the SID to that point and the STAR from that point.
 
Yeah. When I said "enter them manually" I was referring to putting the odd radial/distance fixes in an VOR-based RNAV box. But yes, even that was one at a time entry/navigation.

I did not use those old RNAV boxes too much. I do have around 4,000 hours using the old Global VLF/Omega Series II. No data base and the total of 9 waypoints were entered using Lat/Long. It only held one flight plan, the current one. I thought it was great when I started using around 1986.

VLF.jpg
 
I did not use those old RNAV boxes too much. I do have around 4,000 hours using the old Global VLF/Omega Series II. No data base and the total of 9 waypoints were entered using Lat/Long. It only held one flight plan, the current one. I thought it was great when I started using around 1986.

View attachment 91300

Wow! That's the immediate successor to the sextant, isn't it? :eek: :D
 
I did not use those old RNAV boxes too much.
I remember the first time I flew an airplane with a KNS-80. In my student pilot and instrument training days (without even DME), I found triangulating VORs natural and did it all the time to find airports, so when I suddenly had not only DME but the ability to create actual waypoints to directly fly to I thought I was in heaven!
 
Departing KGTU arriving KSSF.

Yes, you'll fly whatever ATC gives you, but on the off chance they give what you filed I'm wondering if there's an inherent advantage to one over the other. The DPE made me file an arrival for my checkride but I haven't since. But then, I haven't filed into a class C or higher airspace either. This trip popped up and I thought it would be a good mental exercise.
 
Departures are for leaving. Arrivals are for arriving. I would file a departure from KGTU and an arrival into KSSF based on your scenario.

It does not matter if you are arriving and there is a departure with the same or similar routing. That is often the case and the procedures are designed to fit traffic flows into and out of busy airports. So the similar route for opposing traffic are either not used simultaneously or they have vertical planning to prevent conflicts with the opposite direction traffic.
 
Departures are for leaving. Arrivals are for arriving. I would file a departure from KGTU and an arrival into KSSF based on your scenario.

It does not matter if you are arriving and there is a departure with the same or similar routing. That is often the case and the procedures are designed to fit traffic flows into and out of busy airports. So the similar route for opposing traffic are either not used simultaneously or they have vertical planning to prevent conflicts with the opposite direction traffic.

The departure and arrival he listed overlap so much that there's no practical way to file both.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=30.028721... GARDS BNDIA CWK MARCS BRAUN TROOP CRISS KSSF
 
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In that case I would file direct CWK for the arrival.
I think I would do the same.

If the departure airport was in the Rockies, on the other hand, I would file whatever would keep me clear of the terrain.
 
Remarks section NO SID NO STAR, problem solved.

It doesn't solve any problem. They can still give you the SID in words, and then you have to read the whole thing back, which would be a bigger pain. I don't understand why people resist SIDs and STARs. If you are flying VFR, wouldn't you like to know what the local pilots use for landmarks such as that grain elevator, or water tower or quarry? SIDs are STARs are the IFR version of that. They are based around some prominent fix which the traffic funnels through. It is useful to know what that fix is, because even if you don't get the SID, chances are you are still going to get vectored to that fix before you go your own way. I never file a SID, but I always look them over to gather some knowledge about the local area.
 
I never file a SID nor STAR, but if given input them and fly. No need to try to predict where ATC is going to want you.

For 90% of my IFR flying in the Midwest I file direct. Only time I file anything different is if I'm going east around Chicago then I add KELSI, because you know you are going to KELSI to go south of the Class B.
 
I never file a SID nor STAR, but if given input them and fly. No need to try to predict where ATC is going to want you.

For 90% of my IFR flying in the Midwest I file direct. Only time I file anything different is if I'm going east around Chicago then I add KELSI, because you know you are going to KELSI to go south of the Class B.

Good point, although I have never seen KELSI mentioned on any of the SIDs or preferred routes.
 
For 90% of my IFR flying in the Midwest I file direct. Only time I file anything different is if I'm going east around Chicago then I add KELSI, because you know you are going to KELSI to go south of the Class B.

My favorite song, Elvis Costello's "I Don't Want To Go To KELSI."

27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI?
C90: Hold on, I'll check... Nope.
27K: OK, here's what we'll do, I'll climb to 10,500, cancel IFR, and you'll give me flight following to OSH.
C90: We can do that.

I just get used to filing to GYY, with the intent to cancel there and go VFR. One time without thinking I get a,

ZAU: 27K, if you want you can go direct KELSI.
27K: Roger, direct KELSI.. wait, that's on the wrong side of Chicago, I'm going to Gary.
ZAU: Oops, you can go direct Gary. Belanca 123XX do you want to go direct KELSI
3XX: Yes, we'd like to do that.
 
Good point, although I have never seen KELSI mentioned on any of the SIDs or preferred routes.
KELSI is an intersection on the SW side of Chicago's class B, out past Joliet. If you are IFR and below 10,000, going around the south side of Chicago, you will get routed to it. In my trips to/from Ohio and Michigan from Iowa, I just file it.

I one time asked to cut the corner and go direct before KELSI, controller just laughed sure clear direct destination via KELSI.
 
KELSI is an intersection on the SW side of Chicago's class B, out past Joliet. If you are IFR and below 10,000, going around the south side of Chicago, you will get routed to it..

KELSI is 30 miles further west than the class B. If you're IFR in Chicago airspace (and not landing ORD or MDW) you either go to KELSI or some place way out in the lake.
 
KELSI is an intersection on the SW side of Chicago's class B, out past Joliet. If you are IFR and below 10,000, going around the south side of Chicago, you will get routed to it. In my trips to/from Ohio and Michigan from Iowa, I just file it.

I one time asked to cut the corner and go direct before KELSI, controller just laughed sure clear direct destination via KELSI.

I know where it is, but I don't think I've see it mentioned on any of the SIDs. Given how commonly it is used, I would have thought it should be mentioned somewhere.
 
I know where it is, but I don't think I've see it mentioned on any of the SIDs. Given how commonly it is used, I would have thought it should be mentioned somewhere.

I'm not sure it's often used if departing Chicago, just for those of us flying past Chicago. Keeps us out of the way.
 
You can file what you’d like but your going to end up flying what ATC wants and assigns.

No necessarily, you can ask for a different route if weather is an issue. I think the planes most of us fly are too slow for standard arrivals and departures and will end up getting vectored most of the time.
 
It doesn't solve any problem. They can still give you the SID in words, and then you have to read the whole thing back, which would be a bigger pain. I don't understand why people resist SIDs and STARs. If you are flying VFR, wouldn't you like to know what the local pilots use for landmarks such as that grain elevator, or water tower or quarry? SIDs are STARs are the IFR version of that. They are based around some prominent fix which the traffic funnels through. It is useful to know what that fix is, because even if you don't get the SID, chances are you are still going to get vectored to that fix before you go your own way. I never file a SID, but I always look them over to gather some knowledge about the local area.

And for those of us going to the flight levels... I almost wish they published MORE SIDs and STARs, or at least preferred routes into the airports, and had more details on them.

Example of more detail: We frequently fly LEEDN.GOPAC2 into KMKE. Pretty much get cleared to cross LEEDN at FL240 every single time, often get MUMPR at 17,000 and usually DREWD at either 11 or 12. But, none of those altitudes are published. I wish they were.

Example of things that I wish were published: If we're coming to KMKE from the southeast, the clearance is going to include BRAVE EXARR almost every time. If we're lucky, BREWR BRAVE EXARR. On a normal day, VINNE BRAVE EXARR. If we're unlucky, there'll be another fix south of VINNE.

Now, we fly in and out of KMKE so much that we know these things... But they're not published anywhere, so the pilots that come to KMKE will get rerouted, and when we go other places where we don't have as much local knowledge, we'll get rerouted. I'd much rather be able to plan and fly a known route.

For 90% of my IFR flying in the Midwest I file direct. Only time I file anything different is if I'm going east around Chicago then I add KELSI, because you know you are going to KELSI to go south of the Class B.
KELSI is an intersection on the SW side of Chicago's class B, out past Joliet. If you are IFR and below 10,000, going around the south side of Chicago, you will get routed to it. In my trips to/from Ohio and Michigan from Iowa, I just file it.

I one time asked to cut the corner and go direct before KELSI, controller just laughed sure clear direct destination via KELSI.
Good point, although I have never seen KELSI mentioned on any of the SIDs or preferred routes.

Guess what... KELSI isn't published anywhere. I mean, it's on the chart, at the intersection of V9, V10, and V38, but the fact that they send dozens or hundreds of airplanes there every day is published nowhere. That's what I find annoying about all this stuff.

Now, IME, when you check in with Chicago Center you can ask them for direct destination when able, and depending on your direction of flight to/from KELSI you can usually cut the corner about 10 miles east and save a few minutes, but that's all. There are other times where you can get away with SHOOF instead of KELSI.

The other, newer alternative is to fly the newer T (GPS) airway, T265. You can only do this between 4,000 and 8,000 feet inclusive, but it is usually shorter than going to KELSI. Usually, if I'm flying the Mooney IFR out of UES I can file BULLZ T265 AHMED (or as far as I need to be on the airway to stay further away from Chicago than the airway) and get it. Add EON onto the end of that if your route would otherwise take you north of EON.

But, this is also why I will, if possible, file from KGYY and shoot down the lakeshore VFR.
 
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