Are steep turns part of the IFR checkride / PTS?

[nj-pilot]

45 degree bank - my CFII seemed to think that they are, but I don't see them anywhere. It's not a hard maneuver to perform obviously, but I'd like to know whether others are doing this.

As far as I can tell, it used to be part of the PTS as recently as ~2004, but has apparently been removed.

Thoughts?

 

[MAKG1]

Instrument "steep turns" are not 45 deg, but rather anything faster than standard rate. And I don't see them in the PTS, and wasn't tested on them.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I was tested on them (I found it one of the most difficult parts)........and it sucks because I don't see them in the current Instrument Rating PTS!

 

[tsts4]

They aren't in the PTS. The fact your CFII doesn't know that would seem to be a bigger issue.

 

[OkieAviator]

I practiced them with my CFII for funsies but he knew they weren't in the PTS. I didn't have them on my checkride either.

 

[James331]

I believe 45 steep turns are part of the ATP PTSs.

 

[rocketflyer84]

It's often practiced since it's a good test of ones ability to control flight purely with the instruments. However it's not part of the Insturment PTS... your CFI should really know that!!

 

[Dead Stick]

I believe 45 steep turns are part of the ATP PTSs.

...and are part of every sim check I've taken in the past 30 years. Not to worry, they are a piece of cake if your scan is up to speed. When I'm CFIIing, it's a real fast and dirty way to see if my student's scan is where it should be. I also use it on IPCs for the same reason. If you're struggling with them it's a sign that you need to work on your scan.

Trim and knowing how much to bump up the power (it doesn't take too much) as you're rolling through 30 degrees of bank are your friends.

 

[James331]

...and are part of every sim check I've taken in the past 30 years. Not to worry, they are a piece of cake if your scan is up to speed. When I'm CFIIing, it's a real quick and fast way to see if my student's scan is where it should be. I also use it on IPCs for the same reason. If you're struggling with them it's a sign that you need to work on your scan.

Trim and knowing how much to bump up the power (it doesn't take too much) as you're rolling through 30 degrees of bank are your friends.

Indeed.

Forgot if there were in the ATP PTS, but it's something we do on our 6mo rides. Not a big deal, I'm surprised it's not part of the base IFR ride.

 

[Dead Stick]

Instrument "steep turns" are not 45 deg, but rather anything faster than standard rate. And I don't see them in the PTS, and wasn't tested on them.

By strict definition, you are correct; however, the ones we do are 45 degrees +/- zip, zero, nada and demand that your scan be up to speed. It's not anything that you would ever do in the IFR environment and as such why would they test you on it? But... as a training tool they are quite handy. No different than asking your students to fly to ATP standards for altitude, airspeed and heading.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I was tested on them (I found it one of the most difficult parts)........and it sucks because I don't see them in the current Instrument Rating PTS!

So, when were they removed from the PTS and why?

I too remember doing steep turns under the hood on my IR checkride in 2009.

 

[brcase]

Steep Turns are still on the CFII checkride, So pretty easy for a CFII to forget they aren't actually part of the instrument checkride, especially if he has recently been working with a CFII applicant.

Or it could be the CFII finds it to be a useful training tool.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Fearless Tower]

However it's not part of the Insturment PTS... your CFI should really know that!!

Yes, but if the instructor got their cert back when they were in the PTS, I can see the confusion. There is a wide range of activity between various CFIs out there. Some are more active and do a better job of staying current on changes than others.

 

[tsts4]

So, when were they removed from the PTS and why?

I too remember doing steep turns under the hood on my IR checkride in 2009.

Google says 2004 but don't know why. In any event his CFII should know they aren't required.

 

[Fearless Tower]

2004 but don't know why. In any event his CFII should know they aren't required.

You sure it was 04? My IR ride was 5 years after that.

 

[tsts4]

You sure it was 04? My IR ride was 5 years after that.

Nope, but that's what my search turned up. Whenever it was it's been more than a year as I had my checkride a year ago and it wasn't in the PTS.

 

[AggieMike88]

Just reviewed my copy of the PTS dated January 2010 and did not see any mention of the 45-degree steep turn as a required item.

But I agree with others that's a good way to date in a good scan and handle of the aircraft.

Link to PTS on FAA.gov. https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-4e.pdf

 

[nddons]

So, when were they removed from the PTS and why?

I too remember doing steep turns under the hood on my IR checkride in 2009.

I could swear that I did them on my IR check ride in 2010, but I could be wrong. It was not something that stands out. Timed and compass turns, and unusual attitude recovery sure do.

 

[jordane93]

I didn't do them on my ride and don't remember seeing in the PTS.

 

[Maxed-out]

Steep turns were required in the Instrument PTS (FAA-H-8081-4C) dated October 1998:

Area of Operation IV. Flight by Reference to Instruments

F. Steep Turns

2. Enters a turn using a bank of approximately 45 for an airplane and 30 for a helicopter.

3. Maintains the specified angle of bank for either 180 or 360 of turn, both left and right.

They were removed when FAA-H-8081-4D came out in April 2004.

I remember this because:

Halfway through my instrument checkride, the DPE used that maneuver to get me off of my route of flight, scramble my brain a little, then see if I could determine my new position and proceed to an intersection (by the most direct means possible) and hold (non-standard of course). Won't ever forget it. This was in the days before GPS was common equipment in a 172. Did it all with two NAV receivers and my superior piloting skills. Right.

 

[tonycondon]

No they aren't but they should be.

They were removed from the PTS relatively shortly after I took my IR checkride in Dec . 2002

 

[Everskyward]

45 degree steep turns are in the ATP PTS. I do them for recurrent every six months. I've always liked steep turns. I think they were my favorite maneuver during private training. They required 60 degree banks then.

 

[Kritchlow]

45 degree steep turns are in the ATP PTS. I do them for recurrent every six months. I've always liked steep turns. I think they were my favorite maneuver during private training. They required 60 degree banks then.

I remember 60's for my commercial. They called them "steep power turns". Then again, that was 1986..

 

[AggieMike88]

*waves at Tony*. You were missed at Gastons this year.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You sure it was 04? My IR ride was 5 years after that.

If I recall correctly, a significant group treated the steep instrument turn as a maneuver encompassed by the basic instrument flight PTS task and continued to ask for it to be performed.

As a number have already said, it continues to be a staple of instrument training, both primary and recurrent.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If I recall correctly, a significant group treated the steep instrument turn as a maneuver encompassed by the basic instrument flight PTS task and continued to ask for it to be performed.

As a number have already said, it continues to be a staple of instrument training, both primary and recurrent.

Personally, I'm glad I had the training. It may have saved my life as a few months later I had to do a steep turn in night IMC to avoid a NORDO 737 that was apparently heading right at me. I don't think I will ever forget the controller's voice that night.

 

[Dr. O]

Any pilot that cannot do 45 degree banked turns, or steeper, either visually or on the gauges and flies into real weather is just another NTSB bulletin waiting to happen.

Come on guys - the end point of the game is not to barely squeak by the PTS by one point and get an Airmans Certificate (though some posting on here seem to believe it is), rather it is to be able to handle the airplane competently when a gust, or anything, upsets the plane into an unusual attitude. If you don't feel competent to do some mildly unusual attitude if the examiner asks for it, you should be asking your CFI why you don't already have that skill.

 

[MAKG1]

Umm, we all do unusual attitude training. Why is a 45 deg steep turn ever necessary in IMC? Canyon turns? In IMC, you're screwed even if you can do a steep turn like that.

 

[nj-pilot]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies everyone.
I don't think anyone's worried about being to perform / conduct the maneuver.
Also, I wasn't trying to find fault with my instructor - clearly he wants me to be a safe pilot.

It's more important in preparing for a checkride, we need to understand expectations (e.g., is it a 360 or a 180? Is it 30 or 45 degrees? etc).

Given that it's not in the PTS, then I shall expect: (1) the DPE will have to clarify what he/she wants me to do exactly given that there was nothing for me to prepare, and (2) the DPE cannot modify my score as a result of this maneuver.

Thanks all

 

[Gubbins]

Umm, we all do unusual attitude training. Why is a 45 deg steep turn ever necessary in IMC? Canyon turns? In IMC, you're screwed even if you can do a steep turn like that.

"N123 Unidentified VFR target at 12 O'Clock 1 mile climbing through 7900 feet altitude unverified, turn right heading 240 immediately"

I'd be doing a steep turn at that point if I'm at 8000 feet

 

[coloradobluesky]

He might ding you for making steep turns. I was told the PTS says to make all turns at standard rate or less, something like that.

 

[MAKG1]

"N123 Unidentified VFR target at 12 O'Clock 1 mile climbing through 7900 feet altitude unverified, turn right heading 240 immediately"

I'd be doing a steep turn at that point if I'm at 8000 feet

A turn for collision avoidance is seldom the best choice. You present a much larger cross section to the target.

I've gotten a couple of "urgent" traffic calls on flight following. The requests were for climbs or descents, preferentially the former. You can get 500 feet in a hurry in cruise.

A panic steep turn in IMC is quite likely to get you disoriented.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Umm, we all do unusual attitude training. Why is a 45 deg steep turn ever necessary in IMC? Canyon turns? In IMC, you're screwed even if you can do a steep turn like that.

Look two posts up from yours.

Your comment is equally true for steep turns VFR. Why is a 45 degree turn ever necessary under VFR. Your canyon turns are a good example - you'll probably already made a bunch of bad decisions and you are probably just as screwed.

Come to think of it, best steep turn I ever made was in a situation when it had to be done "right now."

But it's not all about handling the odd emergency. It's more about showing mastery of the aircraft.

 

[petrolero]

I practiced 45 and 60 deg steep turns during training but I don't recall doing one on the check ride in 2014.

 

[Dead Stick]

A turn for collision avoidance is seldom the best choice. You present a much larger cross section to the target.

I've gotten a couple of "urgent" traffic calls on flight following. The requests were for climbs or descents, preferentially the former. You can get 500 feet in a hurry in cruise.

A panic steep turn in IMC is quite likely to get you disoriented.

 

[Dead Stick]

...Is it a 360 or a 180? Is it 30 or 45 degrees? etc...

Initially, it's a 720. As your scan improves it's a 360 and finally it's a 180 to the left or right followed immediately by a 180 in the opposite direction. 45 degree bank, +/- 50' and +/- 5 knots. When you can do that, your scan isn't a problem. Until you can, your scan isn't up to snuff. And that's for all instrument pilots, not just ATPs.

 

[Fearless Tower]

A turn for collision avoidance is seldom the best choice. You present a much larger cross section to the target.

Dude, when the controller tells you in an extremely excited voice to "make an immediate 180" (my real world example above), you just going to sit there and do standard rate or puts along straight ahead and ignore him as you seem to be suggesting?

 

[Gubbins]

Dude, when the controller tells you in an extremely excited voice to "make an immediate 180" (my real world example above), you just going to sit there and do standard rate or puts along straight ahead and ignore him as you seem to be suggesting?

I've been told to get out of the way of an unidentified VFR target while I was IFR. I sure as hell didn't do a standard rate turn!

 

[MAKG1]

Dude, when the controller tells you in an extremely excited voice to "make an immediate 180" (my real world example above), you just going to sit there and do standard rate or puts along straight ahead and ignore him as you seem to be suggesting?

Did you read the whole message you replied to?

If the controller didn't tell you whether the target was high or low, you had no information to act, but it's usually better to climb or descend, to minimize your cross section.

You can climb a few hundred feet in a real hurry, almost as fast as you can turn it around in a canyon turn, but without anywhere near the disorientation risk.

Sometimes people forget we're not driving. We have altitude to play with, too.

Your cross section during a turn is several times larger than it is during even a very aggressive climb. If it's going to be close, your odds are much better to climb or descend.

Even an instruction to "do a 180" is not very helpful without a direction. Your odds are 50/50 that you'll turn toward the target.

 

[Kritchlow]

Did you read the whole message you replied to?

If the controller didn't tell you whether the target was high or low, you had no information to act, but it's usually better to climb or descend, to minimize your cross section.

You can climb a few hundred feet in a real hurry, almost as fast as you can turn it around in a canyon turn, but without anywhere near the disorientation risk.

Sometimes people forget we're not driving. We have altitude to play with, too.

Your cross section during a turn is several times larger than it is during even a very aggressive climb. If it's going to be close, your odds are much better to climb or descend.

Even an instruction to "do a 180" is not very helpful without a direction. Your odds are 50/50 that you'll turn toward the target.

A self initiated altitude change while IFR? Maybe I missed something? Controller said immediate turn.. Right??