Are Complex Aircraft Obsolete?

[midwestpa24]

You would really be impressed by 140 kts instead of 135 kts?

I am surprised someone hasn’t came out with a complex to knock Cirrus out of competition.

It would have made it better, but yes the cruise speed wouldn't have changed much. That just goes to show how draggy the Arrow is. A 180 hp Comanche cruises at 140 kts and 9 gph. To get the same speed in an Arrow would probably require 200 hp and probably 12 gph.

I don't think retractable gear is Cirrus's shortcoming. They have designed their gear to have such low drag, that the extra weight of a complex aircraft offsets that small amount of drag. At the speeds most light 4 seaters travel, that is probably the case. Just find an Archer with a few speed mods and good gear fairings and wheel pants, and it is not terribly slower than an Arrow.

 

[MarkH]

You would really be impressed by 140 kts instead of 135 kts?

I am surprised someone hasn’t came out with a complex to knock Cirrus out of competition.

The newer Mooneys beat the Cirrus on most numbers, but they still don't touch the Cirrus in sales.

Could it be because there are TAAs on the field? Perhaps cheaper?

If a commercial student had a choice between a TAA or a non-TAA complex aircraft, what would he/she most likely choose if price was not a factor? Is there a thing such as a "TAA time" as there is "retract time?"

I'm wondering if I priced my Arrow less than the TAA at the other school if I'd have a much better prospect.

Keep in mind that the TAA has added training costs, even at the same price. Personally, I would choose the complex because I want that time for potentially insuring a plane in the future, but keep in mind that I am not the average renter/student, and currently I am not qualified to fly a complex aircraft. Personally, I would suggest incentivizing the plane toward private pilots not pursuing ATP ASAP rating, 2 ways I would suggest would be to offer a reduced "training rate" or "intro rate" to reduce the cost of the complex training, and possibly reducing the overnight minimums to make it more appealing as a traveling rental. (The club I am in does both, but they handle the lower rating in a way that is so unclear, I am budgeting for the full rate for training.

 

[WDD]

Tell that CFI to shut his pie hole. You got yourself a great plane and you’re going to enjoy it. Not sure I agree with WHY you got it but who cares, you already have the plane. Fly it and enjoy it and don’t look back.

He's an idiot. I might buy his argument if you are comparing an Arrow to a slicker fixed gear (Cirrus, Columbia, larger Technams), but to other PA-28s? You got to be up in the Pathfinder range before the fixed gear versions have better performance. I'd take the Arrow any day over a Dakota or Archer.

The Arrow is a nice plane and forgiving for a new pilot. Enjoy your plane and forget what he told you.

Summed it up well. I'd love to have something like an Arrow, but I'll soon be at the age where insurance people will say "Nope" on any retract.

 

[IK04]

This whole TAA stuff is obviously due to the lack of affordable retract airplanes available in the GA market. Being an old, crusty pilot who had to do it the old way, I would say that just because you know how to operate a G1000, that won't allow you to pull that little plastic wheel up on the panel.

Conversely, I would not pay nearly $200 per hour to rent an airplane in order to achieve a new rating unless I was forced to.

Anyone can jump in a TAA airplane without an endorsement and figure it out, not so a retract.

 

[Deelee]

He mentioned that the Arrow is not that much faster (than a Cherokee 180 or C172)

Others have said it already, but as an Arrow owner I have to add my, "Your CFI is an idiot" comment here. Or at least his comment is idiotic.

To get the same speed in an Arrow would probably require 200 hp and probably 12 gph

Guess it depends on the Arrow. My short-body with "speed mods" (lol) trues out at 150 at around 9-10gph.

The saying about Le Arrowe is something like, "It does everything ok. Nothing great. But nothing terrible." Hauls enough. Fast enough. Easy enough to fly. Fun enough. Cheap enough to maintain. Everything good enough, but nothing best or worst. Personally, I :heart emoji: my Arrow.

 

[Morgan3820]

Others have said it already, but as an Arrow owner I have to add my, "Your CFI is an idiot" comment here. Or at least his comment is idiotic.



Guess it depends on the Arrow. My short-body with "speed mods" (lol) trues out at 150 at around 9-10gph.

The saying about Le Arrowe is something like, "It does everything ok. Nothing great. But nothing terrible." Hauls enough. Fast enough. Easy enough to fly. Fun enough. Cheap enough to maintain. Everything good enough, but nothing best or worst. Personally, I :heart emoji: my Arrow.

It is the Toyota Corolla of airplanes

 

[Rgbeard]

Could it be because there are TAAs on the field? Perhaps cheaper?

If a commercial student had a choice between a TAA or a non-TAA complex aircraft, what would he/she most likely choose if price was not a factor? Is there a thing such as a "TAA time" as there is "retract time?"

I'm wondering if I priced my Arrow less than the TAA at the other school if I'd have a much better prospect.

Unrelated question - is your Arrow already a "beater plane", or are you simply wanting it to become one.

 

[exncsurfer]

Hi all. I'm hoping to get some insight.

I recently purchased a 2000 Piper Arrow. My intention was to use it at both as a personal aircraft and as a rental. I'm finishing up my private and plan to go for my instrument, and I figured if I'm going to put many more hours in my logbook, I want it to count as retract time.

I recently added it to a fleet at a flight school that already has (1) CR-12 AATD ($85/hour), (2) Cherokee 180s ($155/hour), (1) 172P ($155/hour), (1) 182G ($190/hour), and now my Arrow ($190/hour).

One of the CFIs there, out of curiosity, asked me why I got an Arrow. I said that I really wanted to get a Mooney for its speed, but I felt like the Arrow would be more suitable as a trainer/rental. He mentioned that the Arrow is not that much faster (than a Cherokee 180 or C172), and that with technologically advanced airplanes now being widely used for commercial training and checkrides, he seemed to indirectly say that complex aircraft are obsolete.

There is only one TAA C172 in the area (at a competing school), and complex airplanes can still be used for training/checkride purposes, so there is still a market for an Arrow, right?

I still feel like going 15 KTAS faster than a C172 while using 3 GPH less than a C182 is a big deal. Sure, retractable landing gear adds to insurance costs compared to fixed gear, but not much (my Arrow's premium is $6700/year vs one of the school's Cherokee 180s at $6000/year). The annual cost doesn't seem that much either (Blue Skies Aviation lists an annual for a PA-28-180 at $1360 vs an Arrow at $1760). I didn't see the sense in getting another PA-28-180 or C172, otherwise I could just rent one of the existing ones. Plus, I felt like it would competing with the other airplanes.

The flight school owner says that my airplane would also cater to already-licensed pilots looking for a faster rental, but with the C182 being the same (wet) rate, would the C182 more likely be chosen over my Arrow?

I am now worried that I may have made a mistake in getting an Arrow. Is there really little or no value in training in, getting endorsed in, or owning/flying a retractable gear airplane as the CFI seemed to imply? I find it hard to believe that everyone is buying a Cirrus. Even a used Cirrus SR20 can easily cost 3x to 4x the price of a used retractable (e.g. Mooney) that can go just as fast.

If your annual/insurance is more inline cost-wise to the Cherokee's why not price it between those and the C182? More incentive to choose yours if its a bit cheaper than the 182.

edit: sorry I see now that you were wondering the same thing. I didn't read page 2 before i posted.

 

[midwestpa24]

e." Hauls enough. Fast enough. Easy enough to fly. Fun enough. Cheap enough to maintain. Everything good enough, but nothing best or worst. Personally, I :heart emoji: my Arrow.

It is the Toyota Corolla of airplanes

I would concur with those statements. Its not a bad airplane by any means. Its not the best in class, nor the worst in class.

But I also have Comanche bias. Granted the Comanche has become a little tougher and expensive to maintain as they have aged, and since being out of production and orphaned by Piper for almost 50 years now!

 

[RussR]

Anyone can jump in a TAA airplane without an endorsement and figure it out

That's definitely not correct in my experience. Some people transition easily and could probably do so on their own, some people never can grasp more than the very basics.

 

[iamtheari]

I owned and flew an Arrow (180hp, Hershey bar wing) for about 500 hours. It was substantially faster than the Cherokee 180 I rented before. 130 KTAS vs. 105 KTAS on the same fuel burn. If you don't know exactly what your mission is, the Arrow is a really good fit. A short-body Mooney will give similar performance and comfort and would be an equally good fit for the not-quite-sure mission. There are other good planes for the role, too. But none of them is so much better than an Arrow to conclude that the Arrow in particular or complex aircraft in general are not worth owning.

Disclaimer: The Arrow is also a gateway drug.

 

[MacFlier]

Could it be because there are TAAs on the field? Perhaps cheaper?

If a commercial student had a choice between a TAA or a non-TAA complex aircraft, what would he/she most likely choose if price was not a factor? Is there a thing such as a "TAA time" as there is "retract time?"

I'm wondering if I priced my Arrow less than the TAA at the other school if I'd have a much better prospect.

In our case we have one TAA plane that flies more often despite being a little more expensive. The FBO has TAA aircraft available as well, but I don't know how much they go per hour

 

[mandm]

First - I don’t think I’d lease a Mooney back as a trainer.
Second - why not add a little [of the right] glass and market the Arrow as a TAA+Complex combo! Depth of experience in both worlds! Stand out from your fellow pilots for an extra $10 / hr!

Like others have said, it’s a decent and forgiving XC platform. I rent an Arrow II right now because my mission centers around XCs, I need complex/retract time so I can afford what’s next, and it’s a cheap way of getting it - though it’s via Flying club.

Which flying club do you rent the Arrow from?

 

[DogoPilot]

You would really be impressed by 140 kts instead of 135 kts?

I am surprised someone hasn’t came out with a complex to knock Cirrus out of competition.

I'd be impressed by it actually climbing at a reasonable rate with a couple of people on board. Going from the Dakota in our club to the Arrow always catches me off guard when taking off because I have a lot more time to stare at the trees in front of me.

 

[mandm]

It’s all about scale. If you want to make money, you want to provide the plane that students want to book the most. Usually that is a C172 as it’s a 4 seater, reliable and cheap. The C152 useful load is difficult and it’s slow. C172 will be busy. The club I’m at has C172 steam gauges and C172 TAA, and the older cheaper one is booked more than the C172 TAA. There was a Mooney that got very little hours used, due to higher hour requirements and insurance. I personally like to try other aircrafts to see how they fly, the Mooney is difficult for dogs to get into so that is a deal breaker for me. The Arrow is great to get something a little faster, good fuel usage and it’s fun to fly. Personally I like it.

At another club I’m at, the Arrow doesn’t get flown much, maybe 2-3 times a week. Whereas the C172 will be flown 2-3 times a day, if not more.

Have to remember a lot of people start off training, on a demo or scenic flight. It’s like a funnel, bunch of hours in the beginning and it tapers off as you get your ratings. People give up in the middle, many people stop at PPL and so forth. So the pool of renters decreases as the complexity increases. Arrow is great for a complex endorsement but you can probably require about 10 hours from that student and then he/she moves on. Whereas for PPL that is a 60 hour investment, another 60-70 hours for instrument, etc.

 

[mandm]

Cirrus is nice but $$$

 

[kaiser]

I mean... that could easily be a $70k upgrade. You have to have a PFD, MFD two-axis autopilots, etc.

My guess is you achieve this with Aspen Evo, a 750/IFD540, and an AP? I don’t know avionics, but I can’t imagine this approaching 70k. Maybe 40k? Also the plane is new enough it might already have a 2-axis AP.

Which flying club do you rent the Arrow from?

International Flying Club - KDPA

 

[Jim K]

My guess is you achieve this with Aspen Evo, a 750/IFD540, and an AP? I don’t know avionics, but I can’t imagine this approaching 70k. Maybe 40k? Also the plane is new enough it might already have a 2-axis AP.


International Flying Club - KDPA

Adding up the experimental versions, which are a little cheaper, of a g3x, gtn750, gfc500, remote TX and audio panel... come out to ~40k. With installation... it'd be easy to blow through 70k.

 

[kaiser]

Adding up the experimental versions, which are a little cheaper, of a g3x, gtn750, gfc500, remote TX and audio panel... come out to ~40k. With installation... it'd be easy to blow through 70k.

Yikes.. Ok how about a used Aspen and leave the Garmin 530 in there?

 

[Pilawt]

An Arrow with the 235hp IO-540 would have ROCKED!!!!

Oh, yes indeed!

According to Piper historian Roger Peperell, the idea had crossed Piper's corporate mind a couple of times.

In 1978 Piper's affiliate in Argentina built a prototype PA-A-28R-260T two-seat military trainer with a sliding canopy. But the military wasn't interested, so the lovely prototype was converted back to a plain ol' Turbo Arrow III and sold to a civilian customer.



Around the same time back home at Vero Beach pencils were dancing on napkins with the idea of a PA-28RT-310T with a Continental TSIO-520 and T-tail. The napkins were as far as it got.

In the mid-'80s an updated, upgraded PA-28R-221T "Arrow V" (aka "Monterey") prototype was built, with a 220 hp Continental TSIO-360. Peperell says it was canceled "as a casualty of Lear Siegler's lack of money for Piper."

Most interesting was the 1992 idea for a PA-28R-250 "Dakota SP" with a 250 HP Lycoming IO-540. Per Peperell, "Lack of money prevented it being anything more than a marketing proposal."

I'd like to get my hands on a PA-28R-300, the clipped-wing, tandem-seat military trainer using Saratoga, Dakota and Arrow components. Piper built 122 of them as kits to be assembled in Chile and Spain, for the military of those countries, plus those of Panama and Paraguay.

 

[Jim K]

Yikes.. Ok how about a used Aspen and leave the Garmin 530 in there?

Actually that might not even be enough glass. I think you have to have a pfd and a mfd that can serve as a reversionary backup, so you'd need a 10" AND 7" g3x, but you could use a 650 instead of the 750 which would almost offset it. There was a thread around here a while ago asking if dual g5's could be a taa. I don't remember if they ever reached an answer.

 

[AA5Bman]

Yeah - can’t quite remember but I don’t think a 750 fulfills the MFD requirement, although something like dual GI275s might. Either way, if he’s in “king silver crown” territory, it’s going to be as expensive as the airplane itself - probably - to make that plane TAA, which really doesn’t give him any extra advantage anyway. I think he’s facing enough headwinds that he doesn’t need to double down on his investment.

 

[texasclouds]

Be ready for tower to call you a Cherokee

 

[thito01]

The renter's perception of his/her future is really the real question. If they are looking toward becoming a professional pilot, it is a good argument that they should be looking toward a TAA aircraft. But, if they are looking toward future ownership and personal use, they they 'should' be looking toward retract time. This is because owners want fancy and fast retracts but the insurance may kill them for the first few years.

The school, and it's instructors, should be asking that question before suggesting one aircraft over another. It sounds like the CFI concentrates on future commercial pilots, not future aircraft owners. Maybe he is just hanging around to build hours so he can move to an airline job. Maybe, he is just too into 'new stuff'.

I would suggest a talk with the school owner or manager where you discuss this CFI's comments and how such comments to students and renters is a disservice to both you and their customers. Mention that any pilot looking toward being a future owner needs to be told that they should get retract time while they are renting as it greatly affects their insurance rates while TAA experience is not a concern for insurance companies. (Retract time now, even if their first aircraft may be fixed, as retract time never expires when it comes to being used to satisfy insurance company requirements.)

 

[Ghery]

Darned near $200/hr wet for a 182? I'll stick with my club at KOLM, thank you. It's about $124/hr wet for our 182P. Less for our 172s.

We used to have an Arrow in the club. We sold it several years ago. It was slightly slower than our 182, but definitely faster than the 172s. My problem with it was that after about 3 hours my knees were shot and it was all I could do to crawl out of it. And, being made in 1969 I never had anyone in the plane that I liked little enough to put in the back seat. NO legroom there. But for two and a shorter flight, it worked well. I had over 70 hours in it when the club sold it. My preferred XC machine was, and is, the 182P. Much more comfortable.

 

[farangutan]

The closest school to me in Tampa rents 172s in the $189-$229 per hour wet.

 

[Todd82]

I'd buy an Arrow over a fixed gear Cherokee for a personal plane if the insurance delta wasn't so steep.

 

[Rgbeard]

I'd buy an Arrow over a fixed gear Cherokee for a personal plane if the insurance delta wasn't so steep.

having only owned a retract, I simply need to ask: how much is this delta?

 

[Morgan3820]

having only owned a retract, I simply need to ask: how much is this delta?

In my experience with both, everything being equal, about $800-1000/year. But, I figure that the delta is made up in improved efficiencies. The way I figure it, if you want to go faster than a Cherokee or Skyhawk you need either a Grumman Tiger or a retractable or pony up the money for a Cirrus. And the Cirrus is way out of the Arrow’s league, cost wise. A C182 will keep up with an Arrow but for a lot more fuel burn. That is the way I look at it anyway. There are no free lunches in aviation.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That instructor thinks they are smart. Now you know they are not. Move on and enjoy the airplane.

 

[Jim K]

having only owned a retract, I simply need to ask: how much is this delta?

In the case of a 6-300 vs a Lance it seems to be pretty consistently double. When I was shopping it was 2500 vs 5000. I've heard others with higher time getting quoted 2000/4000. Id bet 180 vs arrow would be the same 2x, just with slightly smaller numbers.

 

[mcdewey]

I agree - the biggest draw for using an arrow as a trainer is for the commercial, and to the extent that there’s not a competing, lower cost TAA aircraft on the field, you’re the only game in town.

That said, the problem is that as soon as the school adds something *really* cheap like a factory built RV-12 to their fleet, filling the TAA requirement at a 25% discount in terms of hourly cost, I think your rental hours are going to drop like a rock. In terms of non-commercial student rentals, your rental pool is smaller due to the added complex endorsement requirement, and most of those will want to be doing cross-country type flights in which case the 182 makes more sense if you’re not paying for fuel.

As long as there are no competing TAA aircraft or those TAA aircraft are at least as expensive as your plane, I think you’re okay (but even when costs are at par between your plane and a TAA, your rental pool is smaller due to the complex sign off). But short of that, yeah... I think the arrow is a little obsolete.

I'm flying a TAA RV12 for my commercial. Cheap and fun to fly.

But if there was a retractable for rent where I fly out of, I would at least get some hours on it

 

[thito01]

In the case of a 6-300 vs a Lance it seems to be pretty consistently double. When I was shopping it was 2500 vs 5000. I've heard others with higher time getting quoted 2000/4000. Id bet 180 vs arrow would be the same 2x, just with slightly smaller numbers.

Last year, my Lance was about $2400. This year, it was the same, until I bumped the value from 140k to 225K which increased it to about $3500. But, I do have over 400 hours in a Lance and I do have a commercial ticket, both of which I am told reduces the cost. (The value was adjusted based on a broker evaluation when I saw what they were now going for.)

I think the big factor is 'retract time' on the application. This is why I would suggest that anyone renting, and wanting to buy an aircraft in the future, should rent a retract whenever they can.

 

[Pilawt]

In the case of a 6-300 vs a Lance it seems to be pretty consistently double. When I was shopping it was 2500 vs 5000. I've heard others with higher time getting quoted 2000/4000.

Quotes I got were in the 2000/4000 range for the PA-32-300 vs. PA-32R-300 of like vintage and hull value. I'm not sure how much of that was because I'm a geezer (70). Some companies wouldn't even give me a quote for the retractable.

 

[schmookeeg]

Arent they all obsolete if you live within an hour of a class C/D airport?

 

[flyingron]

Arent they all obsolete if you live within an hour of a class C/D airport?

Eh? Lots of class Ds have no airline service. A lot of class C's don't have the best airline connectivity either.

I lived ten minutes from IAD. Going to coastal Massachusetts or SE Maine, I could easily beat the airlines in the Navion. While the Navion takes 2.5 hours to get there, I save that by going to airports closer to the destination and spending less time on the end points. I arrive at OWD and they bring the car around to the plane and I'm on my way to Quincy without having to struggle through the airport, rental car pickup, the big dig, etc...

 

[schmookeeg]

Eh? Lots of class Ds have no airline service. A lot of class C's don't have the best airline connectivity either.

I lived ten minutes from IAD. Going to coastal Massachusetts or SE Maine, I could easily beat the airlines in the Navion. While the Navion takes 2.5 hours to get there, I save that by going to airports closer to the destination and spending less time on the end points. I arrive at OWD and they bring the car around to the plane and I'm on my way to Quincy without having to struggle through the airport, rental car pickup, the big dig, etc...

Phone-fingered, meant class B

 

[cowman]

having only owned a retract, I simply need to ask: how much is this delta?

When I sold my Archer it was running around $700/year for insurance. Going to the Lance with 0 complex time I was a little over 3,000. Now after a couple years and a couple hundred hours it’s down to around 2700. Of course, 6 vs 4 seats and double the hull value plays into that too.

 

[SkyDog58]

What does the CFI own? If nothing, then I’d follow eman’s advice and tell him to shut his pie hole. If he does own a plane, ask him to justify it. If he can’t… again eman.

Even if there is a cheaper TAA in the local fleet, many still want the complex endorsement and complex hours. It will rent. Yes, the TAA rule has cut into your income potential but it will rent. I would not worry too much.

Now shut your pie hole and go fly the *****.

 

[Todd82]

In my experience with both, everything being equal, about $800-1000/year. But, I figure that the delta is made up in improved efficiencies. The way I figure it, if you want to go faster than a Cherokee or Skyhawk you need either a Grumman Tiger or a retractable or pony up the money for a Cirrus. And the Cirrus is way out of the Arrow’s league, cost wise. A C182 will keep up with an Arrow but for a lot more fuel burn. That is the way I look at it anyway. There are no free lunches in aviation.

Depends on how low time you are. Fresh PPL in a $80k Arrow about $8k vs $1500ish for fixed gear PA28.