Are Airline Pilots Overpaid?

Warrior

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Warrior
I came across one of those internet news lists of overpaid jobs. Unfortunately it was a while ago and I cannot reference it.

Because of the responsibility, the complexity, the requirement for great health, the requirement for great mental health, and for many other reasons I do not think that air line pilots are overpaid.

What do you folks think?

One mistake, such as the famous one of flying past your destination, and you are probably fired. Or 588 people go down in flames.
 
Depends on how you categorize 'airline pilots'.

If you just talk about the majors, you might say they are well paid. If you include all 121 pilots (majors and regionals), then you might even say they are underpaid. Regional pay is crap.
 
They would have to pay me a whole hell of a lot more than going rate to deal with that much bureaucracy and red tape.
 
IMO major airline pilots are paid just OK. Regionals, etc. need a pay raise badly.

I contrast this to my wife's nephew. Got out of state college with a business degree, not knowing "S". Got a job at a three letter tech. company. 10 years later he is making $300K+.

Take away the pipe dream of being a captain for the majors and we're going to have some super bozos flying us around.
 
I would say that "overpaid" and "underpaid" are nonsense concepts.

Like a stock being "undervalued" or "overvalued".

If a baseball player can command 14 million dollars, that's what he is worth.

If a teacher can command $60k, that's what he or she is worth.

Things, whether stocks or teachers or airline pilots or flight instructors or rare stamps or Andy Warhol paintings are each worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them at any given time. It's what puts the "free" in free markets.
 
I would say that "overpaid" and "underpaid" are nonsense concepts.

Like a stock being "undervalued" or "overvalued".

If a baseball player can command 14 million dollars, that's what he is worth.

If a teacher can command $60k, that's what he or she is worth.

Things, whether stocks or teachers or airline pilots or flight instructors or rare stamps or Andy Warhol paintings are each worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them at any given time. It's what puts the "free" in free markets.
The market is often distorted by the influence of government so it is nowhere close to being a free market.
 
The market is often distorted by the influence of government so it is nowhere close to being a free market.

So, baseball players are overpaid and Andy Warhol paintings are overvalued because of the government? (assuming that they are).

Sure, regulations can influence markets.

But right now, today, is Apple stock overvalued or undervalued? Right now, today, are airline pilots overpaid or underpaid. I still hold they're both meaningless concepts.
 
So, baseball players are overpaid and Andy Warhol paintings are overvalued because of the government? (assuming that they are).

Sure, regulations can influence markets.

But right now, today, is Apple stock overvalued or undervalued? Right now, today, are airline pilots overpaid or underpaid. I still hold they're both meaningless concepts.
Sports stadiums are often paid for by taxpayers leaving more money for player salaries. Don't get me started on how government corrupts the cost of medical care including physician's pay.
 
IMO major airline pilots are paid just OK. Regionals, etc. need a pay raise badly.

I contrast this to my wife's nephew. Got out of state college with a business degree, not knowing "S". Got a job at a three letter tech. company. 10 years later he is making $300K+.

Take away the pipe dream of being a captain for the majors and we're going to have some super bozos flying us around.

Just another reason to do away with the pilot and for computers to replace them. It's going to happen and a pool of bozo pilots will only make it happen sooner.
 
Just another reason to do away with the pilot and for computers to replace them. It's going to happen and a pool of bozo pilots will only make it happen sooner.

The day that happens is the day I never set foot in an airliner again.
 
The day that happens is the day I never set foot in an airliner again.

+1,000.

I have no concerns about "Bozo Pilots" in the American system. There is a reason why we need a healthy general aviation community.

And no, airline pilots are not "overpaid." "Adequately paid" at the top, but they had to earn-in to get there, too, years and years of ramen noodle budget and fleabag motel lifestyle.
 
I always scratch my head when this type of discussion comes up. It is based on the false premise that there is some kind of measuring instrument or scientific technique that can be used to evaluate pay and jobs.

There's a reason why they call the job market a "market."

When I try to hire, if I cannot get enough qualified applicants then I conclude that my pay offer is too low. If I get buried in qualified applicants, then my offer is too high.

If I pay too little, my product suffers and I will not be successful. If I pay too much, I am not competitive and I will not be successful.

There are all kinds of distortions, principally government and unions, but eventually these fail. The UAW knows this -- now. Germany learned this and made corrections several years ago. France is in the process of learning it right now, as are the Boeing "machinists."

Some people don't consider the labor market to be fair. OK. Life is not fair. Free markets are still the best way that society has found for efficient allocation of resources.

Because of the responsibility, the complexity, the requirement for great health, the requirement for great mental health, and for many other reasons I do not think that air line pilots are overpaid.
None of this matters except indirectly. Are the applicants qualified? If yes, then do I have too many applicants? If yes, then I am paying too much.
 
If a teacher can command $60k, that's what he or she is worth.

Not to hijack the thread, but that statement can't go unchallenged.

Teachers can't "command" anything. They get paid only what the district is willing to spend. There's no negotiating a better contract for yourself. There's no merit pay for better results. (Just penalties for poor results.)

The only way for a teacher to get ahead is to get out.

That said, there isn't another job for me that offers the rewards of teaching. The letters and email I get years later from students who thank me for changing their lives, is worth more than you could pay me.

BTW, No one is worth millions for playing a game. (And don't give me the argument that teachers only work 180-200 days per year. MLB season is 162 games. That's less than 162 days considering double-headers. NFL is only 16 days per season.)

</hijack>
 
There's no negotiating a better contract for yourself.
Yes. Unions distort the markeplace. A better teacher or a teacher in a shortage area like science and math should be able to negotiate a better deal for him/herself. But the unions have them shackled to the drones. That problem is not unique to teachers, either.

The only way for a teacher to get ahead is to get out.
True in many jobs. If too many people "get out" of a particular job then the employers will have to raise their offers. That's how a market works. IMHO that's probably what will start to happen for entry-level pilot jobs. The return (pay) on investment (training costs) is simply too poor to attract enough applicants. So soon a FO at a regional will be "worth" more.

That said, there isn't another job for me that offers the rewards of teaching. The letters and email I get years later from students who thank me for changing their lives, is worth more than you could pay me.
And good for you. The intangibles of a job are part of the pay. Satisfaction, prestige, lots of days off, whatever turns your crank.

BTW, No one is worth millions for playing a game.
The market disagrees with you here. I agree that it's insane, but "worth" is determined by the market. I agree with FastEddieB.
 
Pro athletes, generally, are worth their salaries. Their performance brings in revenue for the owners. If the fans really didn't want them to be paid so much, they'd quit buying tickets to games, team logo merchandise, pay-per-view, products from commercial sponsors, etc.
 
When I left American Airlines in 2000, 10% of the workforce took home 50% of the available payroll: pilots. The pilots commanded those rates because of collective bargaining power ("self help"). Most people understand the concept of monopoly (single supplier), but few have heard or understood the term monopsony (single buyer). Either condition is considered by economists to be a market failure, that is, a failure of a market to efficiently allocate scarce resources without the need for public choice mechanisms (government) to do so. The airline industry suffers from both monopoly and monopsony in their labor markets. The monopsonies are the airline companies who hire pilots, and the monopolies are the pilot unions. The law that governs the relationships between the monopsony companies and their monopoly unions is the Railway Labor Act (1926).

The RLA was one of the most comprehensive management/labor relations legislation to be enacted in the US and it is hard to argue with its success in the light of what led up to its creation. After nine years of mostly positive experience with the RLA, Congress determined that many of its provisions would be appropriately applied to the rest of the economy, not just railroads and airlines, and the National Labor Relations Act (1935) was created and applied to all other sectors of the economy except government. Railroads and airlines continue to be governed by the RLA.

By 1947 the lessons learned under the NLRA led to an amendment known as the Taft-Hartley Act (THA) that addressed labor-management relations in more specific terms than the original Act. One of the lessons learned under the NLRA was that it was counterproductive to the economy to allow management to engage in collective bargaining, i.e., to form management unions. As agents for the owners, especially when those owners are members of the public who buy shares in those companies, a natural and potentially devastating conflict of interest arises if management are given collective bargaining power. So the THA bars management ("supervisors") from the practice. Legal tests have been developed by decades of case law to define "supervisor".

This feature of the THA has never been applied to the RLA, and that is why it is only in the airlines that senior officers of the company (vice presidents of flight) are allowed by law to engage in collective bargaining. It is a power concentration that is not seen in any other sector of the economy and it is the exercise of that power over many decades in some companies that has resulted in the extraordinary distortion of income distribution mentioned at the top of this post.

We must remember that pilots are rational economic agents and that they are merely exercising their collective bargaining power as any rational player would if legally given the opportunity. So while I have always believed that the RLA is in need of amendment to correct this deficiency, I have never laid blame nor criticized the pilot unions for behaving as we would all behave if given the chance. The law is broken, not the unions and their members.
 
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I would say that "overpaid" and "underpaid" are nonsense concepts.

Like a stock being "undervalued" or "overvalued".

If a baseball player can command 14 million dollars, that's what he is worth.

If a teacher can command $60k, that's what he or she is worth.

Things, whether stocks or teachers or airline pilots or flight instructors or rare stamps or Andy Warhol paintings are each worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them at any given time. It's what puts the "free" in free markets.

Where is there a "Free" market ? Certainly not here in the U.S.
 
I have never laid blame nor criticized the pilot unions for behaving as we would all behave if given the chance.
I think you are agreeing with me that unions (and monopsonies for that matter) distort markets. But if they can, to the benefit of their members, why would we not expect them to do it and why would we view their individual members negatively for picking the fruit that is on offer?

Where is there a "Free" market ? Certainly not here in the U.S.
More free in the US than in most places. For example, it’s the law that French retail stores' sales are limited to two times a year, January and June or July. Here, Congress has never seen a market that it did not want to mess with. A perfectly free market is more an ideal than a practical reality.

But I'll stick to my premise that a market, ideally completely free, is the best means to allocate resource and to determine their "worth." There is no other "worth-o-meter" that can be consulted.
 
When I left American Airlines in 2000, 10% of the workforce took home 50% of the available payroll: pilots. The pilots commanded those rates because of collective bargaining power ("self help"). Most people understand the concept of monopoly (single supplier), but few have heard or understood the term monopsony (single buyer). Either condition is considered by economists to be a market failure, that is, a failure of a market to efficiently allocate scarce resources without the need for public choice mechanisms (government) to do so. The airline industry suffers from both monopoly and monopsony in their labor markets. The monopsonies are the airline companies who hire pilots, and the monopolies are the pilot unions. The law that governs the relationships between the monopsony companies and their monopoly unions is the Railway Labor Act (1926).

The RLA was one of the most comprehensive management/labor relations legislation to be enacted in the US and it is hard to argue with its success in the light of what led up to its creation. After nine years of mostly positive experience with the RLA, Congress determined that many of its provisions would be appropriately applied to the rest of the economy, not just railroads and airlines, and the National Labor Relations Act (1935) was created and applied to all other sectors of the economy except government. Railroads and airlines continue to be governed by the RLA.

By 1947 the lessons learned under the NLRA led to an amendment known as the Taft-Hartley Act (THA) that addressed labor-management relations in more specific terms than the original Act. One of the lessons learned under the NLRA was that it was counterproductive to the economy to allow management to engage in collective bargaining, i.e., to form management unions. As agents for the owners, especially when those owners are members of the public who buy shares in those companies, a natural and potentially devastating conflict of interest arises if management are given collective bargaining power. So the THA bars management ("supervisors") from the practice. Legal tests have been developed by decades of case law to define "supervisor".

This feature of the THA has never been applied to the RLA, and that is why it is only in the airlines that senior officers of the company (vice presidents of flight) are allowed by law to engage in collective bargaining. It is a power concentration that is not seen in any other sector of the economy and it is the exercise of that power over many decades in some companies that has resulted in the extraordinary distortion of income distribution mentioned at the top of this post.

We must remember that pilots are rational economic agents and that they are merely exercising their collective bargaining power as any rational player would if legally given the opportunity. So while I have always believed that the RLA is in need of amendment to correct this deficiency, I have never laid blame nor criticized the pilot unions for behaving as we would all behave if given the chance. The law is broken, not the unions and their members.

Good post. Part of the issue is that people would fly an airliner for free if given the chance so unions, seniority, etc. is the only way to protect that bargaining power. Look at how many people showed up to take those crappy flight attendant jobs when they were on strike a couple of years ago.

As an example, several cities around here have "volunteer" cops that paid for their own academy, uniforms, etc. and show up and work regular shifts. How many pilots here wouldn't pay for their own sim, rating ride, and fly an airliner a couple of days a week for free??????
 
Good post. Part of the issue is that people would fly an airliner for free if given the chance so unions, seniority, etc. is the only way to protect that bargaining power. Look at how many people showed up to take those crappy flight attendant jobs when they were on strike a couple of years ago.

As an example, several cities around here have "volunteer" cops that paid for their own academy, uniforms, etc. and show up and work regular shifts. How many pilots here wouldn't pay for their own sim, rating ride, and fly an airliner a couple of days a week for free??????

Exactly. The inelasicity of demand on the part of pilot applicants is what creates the environment for ridiculous low pay at the regional and piston flight instruction level. The capitalism cheerleaders would applaud this as "nothing's wrong here, the market works", but it really isn't in the best interest of the public to allow people to work these jobs for free, considering the technical and human responsibility embedded in hurling a 12,500-500,000+lb mass of metal alloy and flesh through the sky at 8 miles a minute. As the other poster pointed out though, they would do it [work for free if given the opportunity]. That's not rational economic behavior.

Frankly, similar inelasticities could be found in law enforcement work and thus, similar work constructs need enacted in order to temper that petulant desire to role play for a living during the hours the rest of the street is working to put food on the table.

The good news is that the regional model was never designed to allocate ANY increase in FO pay in the aggregate. It can be argued that from an economic perspective, there really shouldn't be the existence of 10,000 RJ pilot jobs in the first place. As such, my prediction is that regionals will constrict and fold as their business model dies on the vine when enough people finally don't show up en masse for a 30K/yr job of a 200+ days gone from home variety.

Some mainline airline pilots are adequately paid, regional CAs are underpaid and regional FOs are just beyond highlighting, for it is the epicenter of the entire struggle.
 
Exactly. The inelasicity of demand on the part of pilot applicants is what creates the environment for ridiculous low pay at the regional and piston flight instruction level. The capitalism cheerleaders would applaud this as "nothing's wrong here, the market works", but it really isn't in the best interest of the public to allow people to work these jobs for free, considering the technical and human responsibility embedded in hurling a 12,500-500,000+lb mass of metal alloy and flesh through the sky at 8 miles a minute. As the other poster pointed out though, they would do it [work for free if given the opportunity]. That's not rational economic behavior.
I think the reason that people take these low paying jobs is in the hope that they will make more in the future. I don't think you would find many people willing to fly airliners for free on a long term basis.
 
Why do we have private airlines but no private passenger carrying rail lines anymore ? Why is the only passenger carrying rail line nationalized and subsidized ?
 
I think the reason that people take these low paying jobs is in the hope that they will make more in the future. I don't think you would find many people willing to fly airliners for free on a long term basis.

Indeed, but there's enough 6-year regional FOs despondently shuffling their feet across the terminals of this Country's airports to document once and for all that such an expectation [the 3 year touch n go in regional purgatory and up, up and away to mainline you go] is beyond anachronistic. And with the advent of the internet there is literally no excuse today to hold the expectation you describe, as a genuine expectation in post-2001 airline work.

As to the bolded above? Hope is not a plan. That applies to all vocational choices of course.

Excellent observation though. I think the rationalization for said inelasticity is probably rooted in what you point out. It's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias run amok. Ya can't fix stupid. Pick your platitude....
 
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....
Teachers can't "command" anything. They get paid only what the district is willing to spend. There's no negotiating a better contract for yourself. There's no merit pay for better results. (Just penalties for poor results.)

The only way for a teacher to get ahead is to get out.

That said, there isn't another job for me that offers the rewards of teaching. The letters and email I get years later from students who thank me for changing their lives, is worth more than you could pay me.

BTW, No one is worth millions for playing a game. (And don't give me the argument that teachers only work 180-200 days per year. MLB season is 162 games. That's less than 162 days considering double-headers. NFL is only 16 days per season.)

</hijack>

Hmmmm....

All you need is a BA from two years in a community college and present yourself to a school district...

Out here the starting pay is 54,200 + signing bonus+great medical insurance+ great retirement+ housing allowance+ sick pay+ vacation +summers off = 8 month work year....

All ya got to do is lay low till tenure kicks in and coast for the remaining 21 years and retire in your early 50's for a 6 digit income, for the REST of your life....

In my life, I do not know of ANY teacher who left the golden goose nest to change jobs... and I mean NEVER....

Back to the subject.... Captains on the majors are well paid and earn their keep. The regional pilots are getting the royal shaft... Starting pay on a RJ right seat is something like 16 grand a year.. You can make that flippin burgers at Mc Donalds...
 
Forget the pay. Furloughs and pensions being cut. I wouldn't want to go to the airlines with the current conditions.
 
Are airline pilots over paid? Day in and day out, maybe. But when the excrement hits the ventilation device, not by a long shot.
 
I think the rationalization for said inelasticity is probably rooted in what you point out. It's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias run amok. Ya can't fix stupid. Pick your platitude....
On the other hand you can't win if you don't play and I wouldn't characterize people who make this choice as "stupid". It may not be something that you would choose. It's not even something I chose, but I don't fault people for trying.
 
Hmmmm....

All you need is a BA from two years in a community college and present yourself to a school district...

Out here the starting pay is 54,200 + signing bonus+great medical insurance+ great retirement+ housing allowance+ sick pay+ vacation +summers off = 8 month work year....

All ya got to do is lay low till tenure kicks in and coast for the remaining 21 years and retire in your early 50's for a 6 digit income, for the REST of your life....

In my life, I do not know of ANY teacher who left the golden goose nest to change jobs... and I mean NEVER....

Back to the subject.... Captains on the majors are well paid and earn their keep. The regional pilots are getting the royal shaft... Starting pay on a RJ right seat is something like 16 grand a year.. You can make that flippin burgers at Mc Donalds...

You get Associate Degrees from community colleges and that won't cut it. Neither will a BS. You need a Masters degree to get permanent certification to teach.

Starting pay is nowhere close to that (I didn't get that much until I had been teaching 30 years!), no such thing as a signing bonus, good health insurance that I help pay for, what's a housing allowance?, by my calculations, if I work from September to June, that's 10 months, you think we're the only profession that get sick days?.... You're just a fountain of mis-information.

As for tenure, it's left over from a time when teachers could be fired for no cause. You can still fire a teacher who isn't doing his/her job. All it takes is a little documentation.

And what's wrong with getting retirement pay? (Which is only 6 figures if you count one of the digits to the right of the decimal.) I contributed to the retirement fund, why shouldn't I get it back?

It's people like you that drive me crazy. You've been to school, therefore you know everything there is to know about teaching. It's been well-documented on POA and other boards, the number of great pilots who can't teach. Pass the FOI and you're ready to go?
 
I think the reason that people take these low paying jobs is in the hope that they will make more in the future. I don't think you would find many people willing to fly airliners for free on a long term basis.

The airlines is one of the few places that if you stay long enough (and the airline survives) you will move up and eventually become a highly paid "captain". For a senior pilot, age 50+ life looks pretty good to the outside world. ;)
I am another one that believes that whatever salary you can negotiate is fine with me. For the boss, if someone is "overpaid" you can either renegotiate or high someone cheaper, for the employee, go where you think it's best for you. :D I've had people leave for more money or a better position, I always truly wish them the best. I'm not much on cutting a person's pay, I just don't think it works out in the long run, but it's always an option.
 
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is number of hours worked per year. Aren't airline pilots somewhere around the 1000 hour mark?

If so, that suddenly makes the $117k/yr average salary bloom to $234k/yr when converted to "real job" terms.

I'm not saying they're overpaid...I'm not saying they're not...just throwing out a potential data point for consideration if memory serves.
 
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I'm in the "you're worth what we'll pay for you today" camp. We used to pay three people to ride up front. Computers replaced one of them. That trend will probably continue if they figure out how to have the backup pilot sitting on the ground in a NOC somewhere. Drone tech will leak into the commercial cockpit eventually.


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I'm in the "you're worth what we'll pay for you today" camp. We used to pay three people to ride up front. Computers replaced one of them. That trend will probably continue if they figure out how to have the backup pilot sitting on the ground in a NOC somewhere. Drone tech will leak into the commercial cockpit eventually.

Fortunately I will be deceased by then. ;)

Chers
 
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is number of hours worked per year. Aren't airline pilots somewhere around the 1000 hour mark?

That is just flight time. Duty time is between .5 and 2.0 times that. And that doesn't even consider time away from home.
 
The day that happens is the day I never set foot in an airliner again.

The day Greg decides never to fly another airliner again for that particular reason is when I will never set foot in another airliner again either.
 
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is number of hours worked per year. Aren't airline pilots somewhere around the 1000 hour mark?

If so, that suddenly makes the $117k/yr average salary bloom to $234k/yr when converted to "real job" terms.

I'm not saying they're overpaid...I'm not saying they're not...just growing out a potential data point for consideration if memory serves.

You have no clue. Real job terms, what exactly is that. You do not understand airline pay so please do not post what you know nothing about.

Yes pay for the month may be based on 70 hours, but the time away form base is a much larger number. When you use the time away from base, i.e. gone from home, your "real job" terms comes out to less than minimum wage for a regional first officer.

Your memory does not serve.
 
You have no clue. Real job terms, what exactly is that. You do not understand airline pay so please do not post what you know nothing about.

Yes pay for the month may be based on 70 hours, but the time away form base is a much larger number. When you use the time away from base, i.e. gone from home, your "real job" terms comes out to less than minimum wage for a regional first officer.

Your memory does not serve.

You know what? When I travel for business, I'm not paid for my time "away from base" either, except for my normal salary.

How many folks do you think get such pay?
 
You know what? When I travel for business, I'm not paid for my time "away from base" either, except for my normal salary.

So? :dunno:

How many folks do you think get such pay?

Depends upon what industry you're in.


Why do people want to try to compare their jobs to that of an airline pilot? :dunno:
 
Yes pay for the month may be based on 70 hours, but the time away form base is a much larger number.

All three corporate jobs I worked were roughly 70 hours also.

Per week. Of course, being salaried, the pay was based on 40.

your "real job" terms comes out to less than minimum wage for a regional first officer..

I doubt you'll find anyone here that'll dispute that regional pilots earn crappy wages. I believe the focus of this thread is the big boys though. But maybe I'm misinterpreting.
 
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