Approach successes vs alternates

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
Recent threads, and last weekend's flight had me wondering what experiences others have had with 'barely making it in', or going to alternates.

How long have you held, waiting for it to clear? Did it, and did you make it in?
Tell of your going to the alternate, did you make it in there or did you go elsewhere?

Sure, why not; How little fuel did you have when you finally landed, 'that' flight?

How would you change your plan based on these experiences?
 
Last weekend I was on a 300mi flight, it was below mins all am and at noon it lifted to mins then 200' more so we left. About 100mi into the flight it went below mins again and I watched the stratus report below mins the rest of the way. (I had 2 vfr alternates 20minutes away at all times.) Arriving at destination I was still hopeful but 2 airplanes ahead of me went missed including a Mooney. (He needed a reminder to fly the published missed so I got to hold a few more turns while atc shepherded him where he was supposed to be) The delays paid off. After 25 mins holding and on the last turn, it popped up above mins and in I went!
 
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Flew from Santa Fe to Montgomery Field 2 years ago, it was low but above mins at MYF until 30mins out when it went onto the deck. It helped that I was with someone who had good local knowledge, MYF was on a hill and SAN, equally close to where we needed to be is several 00' lower - he knew exactly which field to ask for. I should have been more prepared by watching all the local fields' wx enroute.
 
I don't need to be anywhere bad enough for that.

This weekend, my destination was foggy, but projected to clear. So I cleaned the plane and poked around the hangar until the weather rose from 1/4 mile and ceiling indefinite to 300' and 5 miles. Then I launched. When I started hearing AWOS in front if me for foggy ground conditions, I asked ATC to check ATIS at my destination to see if the fog was clearing up; they reported back "clear below 12,000 and greater than 6 miles" so I didn't stop short.

That's as exciting as I like my trips to be.

Then there was the 3-1/2 hour after work solo XC, going home to my obstructed 3000' home field. Started seeing tendrils of fog in the valleys below me in eastern KY, but the Class D near home was reporting clear. Everything was great until I noticed turning base that I couldn't see the ridgeline ahead like I usually could. Turned final toward the trees, couldn't see them either, the landing light blew. Cleared the trees, cut power, and about the time the nose wheel touched, hit fog. Turned around and taxied back holding my flashlight out the storm window, out of the fog and to the ramp. Unexciting is how I like it!
 
I always go to some alternate. I'd rather do my waiting on the ground, drinking coffee than driving around in circles rolling the dice.
 
Hank S said:
I don't need to be anywhere bad enough for that.
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I feel the same way. I lost the desire to be "super pilot" about the time of my student solo, even though I did get a chance to fly a real missed off an ILS during training when my CFII and I saw nothing but solid grey at DA.

But I like the idea of "easy" with lots of options. My pre-flight alternate planning when there is a real chance of things dropping below my personal minimums takes the form of "now where can I go to get out of the crap and can I make it there?" Haven't needed it yet.
 
Just to clarify, I was not baiting people to post nailbiters or 'how I cheated and won'.
More of, 'I used the system and its tools appropriately, and here is how it worked and how I achieved the goal'. The benefit being practical experience shared, so others like me can learn.
 
NOT running out of fuel in the air is one of my long term goals in flying. Carry some extra. If you fly around a lot of cross country in lower 48, you need 400 miles of range to do it safely. Dont use up any more than 300. More for IFR. But... the more range the better. Fuel is safety.
 
Days gone by, I'd fly the approach, regardless. It was what I saw that counted, not what the METAR said. As a personal limitation, if I went missed, I didn't try again, though. Not that it happened more than a couple times, max.
Just superstitin, really - bad JuJu to press it, I guess.

Now I limit myself to 1,000 and 2 forecast, and not too keen on extended cruise in the clag (more than an hour), A 172 (or 182) is just not that great an IFR platform, paricularly in turbulence. We have an AP, though not altitude hold, and it's fine for climbing or descending through layers, or blasting off with local fog or reduced vis.
 
Haven't gone missed, outside of training, in a very long time. Been near mins a few times, once did a couple laps on a hold waiting for a automated weather station to get its story straight.
 
Took off for a work meeting that was a little over an hour away. At takeoff, destination filed was not above minimums but forecast to be well above at arrival. My "alternate" was back to my home airport cuz it was not mission critical that I be there if I could not get in and had plenty of fuel for a round trip.

Upon arrival, ceiling had not lifted one bit and was still socked in, so I asked for a diversion to a Class C field that was just a few miles away that had lower minimums (which was my plan b), and field was right AT minimums...approved and cleared...then they turned the airport around...re-cleared and landed no problem but it was a scramble in the cockpit to stay ahead of all of the changes. ATC was super helpful even verifying that I had the fuel for the delay of flipping the airport and the new vectors.
 
Haven't had to use an alternate outside of training flights. Usually fly to airports whose weather is coming up as I approach the field. If field is below min. Won't take off,or start the flight.
 
I've done any number of things; tried the approach, missed and went to an alternate; tried the approach, missed and got in; didn't try at all because the visibility was too low...

For me it depends on the individual situation. Generally if conditions are getting better I'll hold or try again. Probably the longest I've held is trying to get into an airport with a thunderstorm overhead. I asked the lead passenger if he would rather go to another airport. He said he would rather hold, so we held for at least an hour, in various places, as the thunderstorms moved through. We had plenty of fuel so that wasn't an issue.
 
Just use cargo pilot minimums and you'll never have to worry again.
 
Was flying w/ a pilot under Part 135 shooting an ILS into an uncontrolled field. We didn't see the runway so went missed and came right back around for another shot. This time he left the landing lights off and behold, approach lights and the runway. Learned something that day and have used it a few times under 121. (very low ceiling, light was reflecting off the cloud/fog)
 
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My first(and so far only) 'IFR' diversion was a couple months ago. But it wasn't due to ceilings or vis, it was wind. Winds in the 35-45kt range, not down the runway. I didn't even bother to start the approach, I did briefly consider trying to delay since the forecast was that the wind would get better, but instead I headed inland instead. The FBO at my original destination was nice enough when I called them on the radio to call the other airport and find me a rental car to drive back.
 
I don't think my personal minimums will make getting in an issue when I do get and use my ticket. I don't fly for business and if I go somewhere, I don't NEED to get there and I don't NEED to depart. I'd wait on the ground, or just not go.

Granted, 2000/3 is generous and so yeah I might need to file an alternate, but chances are I wouldn't need to go to it. If the forecast is 400 feet, I'm probably not going. If it's going to be extremely windy, I'm probably not going. Icing, embedded thunderstorms or excessive turbulence, I'll stay put.

For me, the ticket is more about preventing getting trapped somewhere due to a layer sitting at 1000 feet, not flying around and descending to minimums on every approach, every time.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Just to clarify, I was not baiting people to post nailbiters or 'how I cheated and won'.
More of, 'I used the system and its tools appropriately, and here is how it worked and how I achieved the goal'. The benefit being practical experience shared, so others like me can learn.
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I doesn't seem anyone thought differently.

The most common thread seems to be, "what was so important that you put yourself in that position?" It's sometimes surprising (although it shouldn't be) how many "what would you do?" questions can be answered that way.
 
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I don't know if this qualifies, since it never got to the approach phase, but it did involve an in-flight diversion in the name of safety.

Years ago, as a new instrument pilot, I was flying from my home in NW NC to New Haven, CT in my Cardinal RG, with my wife and daughter. The whole northeast was low IMC and a cold front was supposed to pass by the time we got there, clearing things out. (The front had already passed at my departure point, and we crossed it in flight somewhere in NJ/NY). I kept checking the weather at different places up there, but everything was still IMC. I was very concerned that if I continued and did not make a successful approach and landing that I would not have adequate fuel to GO somewhere that was a sure thing.

I remembered having passed Allentown, PA in the clear on the back side of the cold front (I think that I had been worked by an Allentown controller), so I asked to divert back to Allentown. I successfully landed there, but it was in THE stiffest crosswind that I have ever landed in: during the approach (VMC) on the ILS, the runway was 40 degrees off our nose. I am not the best cross-wind lander, but somehow I got it down in a textbook crosswind landing and taxied in, relieved to be down but convinced that the plane was going to tip over while taxiing. We made it to the FBO and got out of the plane without the big Cardinal doors being ripped from our hands and drove up the New Haven, late but safe.

"If you have time to spare, go by air."

Wells
 
W. Stewart said:
I don't know if this qualifies, since it never got to the approach phase, but it did involve an in-flight diversion in the name of safety.
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I suspect most of us have stories about diversions if we have spent much time at all on longer cross countries.

In fact, it's one of the things to do to avoid the OP's hypothetical entirely. And with so many of us now having in-flight weather as a tool, we no longer even have the excuse of, "gee, I really don't like calling FSS for updated information in flight."
 
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If you fly at best glide you will get max fuel economy. Try it and see how much you burn. In a typical small GA airplane that would be 70 indicated. I get about 4.5gph from my carbed 0360, depends on altitude (higher gets better mpg). YMMV. One to have in case you need it.
 
That's pretty good. I see about 6, but that's an Archer so the airframe might be the difference there, of my carb sucks:)

If I was just trying to stretch a flight out, it was the best way to build time and a lot cheaper than 10-11 GPH. Definitely good to know that number if you foresee a low fuel situation.
 
Stuff happens. It was SUPPOSED to be VFR at my destination (grass strip with no approach). My alternate was reporting 200'. The next airport over was 600. Yeah, I could have held or kept flying the ILS to the missed hoping for the weather improved, but I went to the 600' strip and sat around drinking coffee and eating donuts for an hour until things went VFR at the destination.
 
flyingron said:
Stuff happens. It was SUPPOSED to be VFR at my destination (grass strip with no approach). My alternate was reporting 200'. The next airport over was 600. Yeah, I could have held or kept flying the ILS to the missed hoping for the weather improved, but I went to the 600' strip and sat around drinking coffee and eating donuts for an hour until things went VFR at the destination.
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And that is how it's done.

I diverted once for strong winds at my unmanned 2770 x 30 destination. At the alternate ~15 nm away, AWOS was not reporting wind ("winds missing . . . ) so I went to Greer and landed on 10,000 x 200, with stiff crosswinds but no problem had to wait an hour for my brother to come get me.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Recent threads, and last weekend's flight had me wondering what experiences others have had with 'barely making it in', or going to alternates.

How long have you held, waiting for it to clear? Did it, and did you make it in?
Tell of your going to the alternate, did you make it in there or did you go elsewhere?

Sure, why not; How little fuel did you have when you finally landed, 'that' flight?

How would you change your plan based on these experiences?
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I don't fly much IFR, I have had to go missed a hand full of times, and twice I had to return to LGB not able to get in. I always had plenty of fuel and the times I couldn't get in I had held and loitered for a couple of hours stacked in VFR with other locals trying to get into Catalina waiting for the cap cloud to sink and open up the "22 hole" in the clouds over the numbers for a visual diving conga line of planes diving at the runway, (don't hit the brakes, keep it rolling at good speed and take the second exit) or for the airport to call the ceiling good enough to try. On those trips I tankered full fuel and loitered on 9gph, so even back at LGB I was landing with around 4 hours of fuel.

I wouldn't change the plan, the situation was what t was and this was the 'local's' way of dealing with it. That's why when the weather is crap you leave a few hours early so if you can't get in, you have time to go back and catch a boat to work.
 
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I can count my "real" missed approaches over the 30 years I've been flying IFR on one hand and in every case I flew to a nearby alternate rather than hanging around waiting for the weather to improve. As to "just making it in", those are pretty few as well but maybe a little more frequent than missing for wx. At my home drome and a couple other airports I have used the ability to descent to 100 AGL on an ILS with just the approach lights in view but those always resulted in me seeing the runway by the time I hit 100 AGL and landing.
 
Sundancer said:
Now I limit myself to 1,000 and 2 forecast, and not too keen on extended cruise in the clag (more than an hour), A 172 (or 182) is just not that great an IFR platform, paricularly in turbulence. We have an AP, though not altitude hold, and it's fine for climbing or descending through layers, or blasting off with local fog or reduced vis.
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The 172 and 182 are the best IFR platforms I've flown (of course, the only other one was a /U Arrow). A /G 172 is fine and a /A 182 is comfortable. Now if the club's 182 were /G I'd be thrilled.
 
Ghery said:
The 172 and 182 are the best IFR platforms I've flown (of course, the only other one was a /U Arrow). A /G 172 is fine and a /A 182 is comfortable. Now if the club's 182 were /G I'd be thrilled.
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I don't think the 182 is an awful IFR platform, but it isn't as inherently stable as other aircraft of the same class. Just my opinion; it's a not-so-good compromise; handles like a pig for VFR yanking-and-banking, and is just so-so for IFR. But hey, a lot of people really like them, especially for comfortable travel, which they provide.

The 172 handles better, but is a whiffle-ball in turbulence. While that's not an issue VFR, it's a bit more grim in hard IFR.
 
Holding waiting for the weather to clear is a lot like watching water boil -- the more you watch it the longer it takes. I've always headed to my alternate -- rather be on the ground in comfort waiting than going around in circles.:yes:

Besides, if it's really not your day the alternate may go below minimums if you wait too long.:eek: Watch the movement of weather systems closely.
 
Sundancer said:
I don't think the 182 is an awful IFR platform, but it isn't as inherently stable as other aircraft of the same class. Just my opinion; it's a not-so-good compromise; handles like a pig for VFR yanking-and-banking, and is just so-so for IFR. But hey, a lot of people really like them, especially for comfortable travel, which they provide.

The 172 handles better, but is a whiffle-ball in turbulence. While that's not an issue VFR, it's a bit more grim in hard IFR.
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I wouldn't argue against your points. My experiences are limited to a few hours (VMC, student pilot) in a 150, a bunch of hours in 172s, 70 somthing hours in 182s and the Arrow. You want squirrely, the 150 is the worst. But, I don't worry about 150s, I can't get the seat back far enough to get my knees out of the bottom of the panel when I go for the brakes, so it doesn't count. The club is selling the Arrow, so it isn't even available anymore. I'm limited to 172s or 182s. For me the trade-off is comfort in a /A 182 or more toys and easier navigation in a /G 172. The other 172 is /A, so if I'm going to have the more limited avionics I'll opt for the comfort of the 182.

Oh, and I haven't flown hard IFR. I got the rating so I can get through a layer at the home drome and then have clear sailing the rest of the way across the state. If it is going to be 2 hours in the clag the trip rapidly becomes 5 1/2 to 6 hours driving. I fly because it is fun and 2 hours on the gauges doesn't sound like fun. :D
 
Ghery said:
The 172 and 182 are the best IFR platforms I've flown (of course, the only other one was a /U Arrow). A /G 172 is fine and a /A 182 is comfortable. Now if the club's 182 were /G I'd be thrilled.
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Join CAP. WAWG has quite a number of 182/Gs, some of them G1000s. They might even have the wayward 206/G or T206/G (the latter is real nice for mountain searches, but I really hate sitting right seat in those due to the lack of a door).
 
I've done:

- gone missed, tried again, got in the second time
- gone missed, tried again, gone missed the second time, held, got in later.
- gone missed, proceeded to alternate.
- proceeded to alternate (didn't have the fuel to mess around, was concerned about a thunderstorm, or was concerned about ice, etc).

I've gotten into airports before that the 121 guys couldn't.

What I do just really depends on the circumstances. Sometime's the alternate is so damn inconviennt from a ground logistical perspective and I have the fuel to wait things out. Sometimes the alternate is no big deal if we end up there.

Other times I just can't take the risk of hanging out in conditions that I will be piling ice up in (FIKI or not FIKI, either way, I don't like piling up ice on an airframe).

Other times even being in the area means a thuderstorm is going to shred me.

Really is no right answer. Just depends.

I have never, ever, went below minimums. That said I personally do not see any danger in executing an approach to minimums over and over and over if I have the fuel to do it, there ice no icing concerns, and there are no thunderstorms about to rip me apart.
 
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My lowest approach was my first in real IMC, about two weeks after my IR checkride. All textbook, but it involved about 30 minutes of vectoring through DFW's Bravo, and the 182 had no functioning autopilot.

Only close one was a flight, when I departed, my destination (1.5 hrs away) was reporting 1400 and 5, GPS approach got you to 700'; when I got in-range, surprise! 700' ceiling and 3.

I took the approach, fully ready to just go missed and fly back home (I never leave without oodles and gobs of option-granting fuel), but as I reached for the gear switch go missed, I spotted the beacon, then the runway. Flaps, sidestep (not perfectly aligned), land, park. By the time the car was loaded, it was 200', by the time we picked up the pizza, it was indefinite ceiling and 1, by the time we got to the house, I was creeping through dense fog - all unforecast.

Good news for me is, most of my missions are north-south in Texas, and it is VERY rare that I can't fly 1 hour west and get VMC. And (like I said), I always have plenty of gas. Plus, I never launch if IMC is widespread.
 
jesse said:
I've done:



- gone missed, tried again, got in the second time
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Looked over, grinned an evil CFII grin and asked Nate what his intentions were... right before the controller did...

That was damn fun that night, and educational. Haha.

Freakin' river valley fog in Lincoln...

I don't know if I ever told you how surprised I was to have to go missed that first time around.

Which then set me up for being *really* surprised we landed out of number two.

You probably remember the look on my face better than I do, though. I was just kinda in shock. "Huh. Real IFR to minimums. That was... interesting!"

You couldn't have planned that better if you tried. Omaha couldn't have been more severe VFR and Lincoln couldn't have been more socked in, at the same time, without ending up in Omaha that night after a second miss. Haha.
 
In all my times flying my personal bird I've had to divert once, coming back from Sun-n-Fun one year the weather at home field got socked in with horrible thunderstorms, me and just about everyone else going up that direction diverted. It turned out to be a fun time with friends in an unexpected city for the night. We did not go to the filed alternate as there was a more nearby alternate that was clear. Another time coming back from dinner it was reporting at mins for the approach both vis and ceiling, first time shooting the ILS saw nothing not even a light at mins, went missed but with plenty of gas, a good alternate option if need be, and we saw the fast moving fog bank with intermittent gaps I decided to try it again and made it on the second try around.

At work, one time before I upgraded I was flying with a captain who was "High mins" (less than 100 hours as PIC in type) As a result we couldn't even shoot the approach and thus had to divert. Another time we were shooting an ILS into an airport and through about 600 feet the localizer and glide slope just crapped out, so went missed off that and had to do the RNAV back in the second time.
 
I haven't had to go missed from a below minimums approach since getting my ticket. The closest I've gotten is exactly minimums going into my home field. If I hadn't seen the pond that boarders the runway I would have gone missed. The pond helped me to locate the runway.

Closest I've been to diverting to an alternate is going into Newark two weeks ago. If we had received a holding clearance we would have needed to divert. We only had enough fuel for about two turns which had already been burned up by dragging our butts along the ground.
 
The only times I've had to go missed was to a non-precision approach and my alternate was nearby with a precision approach. In all those cases I've always just elected to go to the alternate and get in easily. I've also diverted plenty of times to my alternate if I see the weather at my destination is going below minimums without even trying the approach. I don't feel the need to be a hero or a super pilot or anything like that. I'm not in THAT much of a hurry.
 
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