Apparent plane crash on TPC Scottsdale Golf Course

GRG55 said:
So what would constitute a perfect warning system? Two sequential audible warnings with different tones? Maybe three?
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Straw argument, you are ignoring my point and trying to change the discussion to imply I was promoting some type of a perfect system when I never said anything of the sort. What I did say is that just because something isn't full proof doesn't mean it isn't the better option.

flyingron said:
If your plane gives sufficient aerodynamic buffetting you don't need any sort (aural or visual) indicator.
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Yes that should be sufficient however if I can get a warning prior to a buffeting, I'll take it.
 
GRG55 said:
So what would constitute a perfect warning system? Two sequential audible warnings with different tones? Maybe three?
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I vote for Marilyn Monroe's sexy voice saying "warning, gear up". She could also do: airspeed, traffic, bingo fuel, terrain/terrain/pull up and sing me happy birthday once a year. :)
 
flyingron said:
If your plane gives sufficient aerodynamic buffetting you don't need any sort (aural or visual) indicator.
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In a normal training flight where the CFI or PIC announces “we now going to do a stall “, then you proceed to slowly increase your AOA while focusing to keep the ball centered and will feel the expected buffeting, no, but....

In the imperfect world there is no pre announcement, your not straight and level, ball is not centered, and the AOA is quickly increased, going past the point of a warning indicator in a second.
Like the accident in Melbourne, FL or Houston, TX ...both Cirrus...both had stall warning and chutes...still didn’t matter.
 
Bill Watson said:
As a life long non-pro pilot it often occurs to me that one key to a long life in aviation is surviving the stuff one does in one’s early years. Getting skills, experience, and hormonal maturity without killing yourself or others.
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I disagree. It's largely about not being an idiot and doing stupid things. I've never completed a flight that I would characterize as having "survived". It's about using your brain and not doing all the same hints peop,e have been doing to kill hemselves and others in airplanes for the last 100 years.
 
Lachlan said:
Seems much too intelligent to stuff 6 people into that airplane...
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It's hard to measure the effect a group of people can have on even the most reasonable person. I can envisage a situation where one of the two pilots says, "hey, we're pilots and we have a plane," just to be cool. And someone then says, "hey, let's go to Vegas tonight and party." The camera is rolling, everyone thinks it's an awesome idea, none of the non-pilots have a clue about aviation, and even though he's thinking what a bad idea it is the entire time, the pilot started a ball rolling that he's now having a hard time stopping. And all because he doesn't want to look like a wimp or a killjoy, he flies a plane with himself and 6 other people straight into the ground.

You can't tell me in a million years that a guy with his knowledge and experience didn't realize this flight was an iffy prospect at best.
 
mryan75 said:
...You can't tell me in a million years that a guy with his knowledge and experience didn't realize this flight was an iffy prospect at best.
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It's probably the same "optimism" that causes VFR pilots to "have a look" and press on when the weather outlook is clearly not conducive. Or to push on with the gauges dropping to avoid an unplanned fuel stop.

There's a human factors element to this, and as you noted the group situation likely amplified it.
 
denverpilot said:
In another forum I’ve stated that I think the pilot’s got their training flight they claimed they were on, but it turned out to be training in W&B in the hardest possible way to learn. Hadn’t said that one here yet, but there it is.
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What's that quote about experience? It's a cruel teacher...it gives the exam first, then the lesson.
 
Everskyward said:
On the other hand, the CFI may have gotten away with it before, and learned the wrong lesson.
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It seems like no matter how many lessons similar to this one are taught, some people still don't learn from them. I'm really hoping this crash was not due to overweight/cg and was due to something else mechanical. That would still have been completely preventable since it appears that this aircraft was out of annual by a few years (any new info?) but at least it would be slightly less mind boggling. No, check that- any CFI that would climb into an airplane that was knowingly out of annual is responsible for the outcome of the flight. Not knowing is no excuse, that 91.203 (a) (1), and the 91.103 thing again.
 
denverpilot said:
And what exactly does that have to do with what he said about this crash? Did they also overload an airplane and probably put it out of aft CG, while shooting Instagram photos doing it?
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No. There were months of speculation and defamatory accusations by the media and local pilots (this was before internet expertise was possible).

It made the families suffer even more.

As it turned out, the critics were wrong, but by the time this was known the grieving had been going on for almost two years. Not many bothered to admit they had unfairly besmirched the pilot's memory.

So that's why I'm a bit sensitive.
 
3393RP said:
It's one thing to speculate about the cause of a crash. It's quite another to pronounce a dead person responsible for the incident and death of five other people.

Your post is odious and unfounded.
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Gawd I'm tired of reading this sanctimonious crap every time someone performs a stupid pilot trick.
 
drotto said:
I was also wondering why someone certified as a CFI would be flying a plane in the first place that was out of annual and possibly had a suspended airworthiness certificate.
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The plane was out of annual? Where was that information taken from?
 
3393RP said:
No. There were months of speculation and defamatory accusations by the media and local pilots (this was before internet expertise was possible).

It made the families suffer even more.

As it turned out, the critics were wrong, but by the time this was known the grieving had been going on for almost two years. Not many bothered to admit they had unfairly besmirched the pilot's memory.

So that's why I'm a bit sensitive.
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Completely irrelevant to this situation and discussion. The cause of the crash here is pretty obvious. If this discussion hurts your feelings, stop reading it. Seriously.
 
Everskyward said:
On the other hand, the CFI may have gotten away with it before, and learned the wrong lesson.
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Our club for a while had an Archer III, which was a new Piper Archer. Nice plane, HSI, dual 430's, S-Tec 55x, stormscope, leather interior, all the goodies. It was also a heavy pig, with just a little over 500# useful with tanks at the tabs. Yet two couples would regularly fly in that plane, each guy went 250 easy, and their wives in the back seat weren't exactly diminutive. I asked one of the pilots about it: "Oh that plane handles the weight just fine. Just use flaps on takeoff and use the long runways and you're good!"

Some just don't give a fig about limitations.
 
mryan75 said:
Completely irrelevant to this situation and discussion. The cause of the crash here is pretty obvious. If this discussion hurts your feelings, stop reading it. Seriously.
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Why don't you ignore it if you don't like it? Zip up your A2, amble out to your aircraft, and be that PIC everyone envies.
 
mryan75 said:
The cause of the crash here is pretty obvious.
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No, it’s not.

mryan75 said:
If this discussion hurts your feelings, stop reading it.
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The thread has value, as opposed to your posts, which do not.

To which there’s a more targeted solution than to stop reading the thread.

Seriously.
 
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teejayevans said:
In a normal training flight where the CFI or PIC announces “we now going to do a stall “, then you proceed to slowly increase your AOA while focusing to keep the ball centered and will feel the expected buffeting, no, but....

In the imperfect world there is no pre announcement, your not straight and level, ball is not centered, and the AOA is quickly increased, going past the point of a warning indicator in a second.
Like the accident in Melbourne, FL or Houston, TX ...both Cirrus...both had stall warning and chutes...still didn’t matter.
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Again, it depends on the airplane. Some will give you a very prolonged warning/ buffet followed by a docile stall. Others will give very little warning and have a rather abrupt stall.
 
3393RP said:
Why don't you ignore it if you don't like it?
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Because it doesn't bother me in the least bit. I'm not the one telling people not to share their opinions regarding this crash. If you don't want to see the opinions, don't read the thread. Either that or get over yourself.
 
FastEddieB said:
No, it’s not.



The thread has value, as opposed to your posts, which do not.

To which there’s a more targeted solution than to stop reading the thread.

Seriously.
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I agree the thread has value, SlowEddie. That's why I'm telling the other guy if he doesn't want to read peoples' thoughts on the accident to stop reading the thread. And I couldn't care less what you think of my posts.
 
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mryan75 said:
I can envisage a situation where one of the two pilots says, "hey, we're pilots and we have a plane," just to be cool. And someone then says, "hey, let's go to Vegas tonight and party."
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Perhaps the same cognitive distortion, but they flew from Vegas to Scottsdale to pick people up and return to Vegas. They had arrived about 30 mins prior to departure.
 
mryan75 said:
The cause of the crash here is pretty obvious. If this discussion hurts your feelings, stop reading it. Seriously.
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Maybe it is, or maybe it isn’t? Sounds like you might be the expert here, but I’ll wait for the NTSB to release their reports.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Some just don't give a fig about limitations.
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Including ferry pilots that routinely overload airplanes (extra fuel tanks), I assume they actually go through extra steps to make sure it’s still within some amount and of course are acutely aware of their narrow margin of error. Obviously something that wasn’t done on this flight.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Perhaps the same cognitive distortion, but they flew from Vegas to Scottsdale to pick people up and return to Vegas. They had arrived about 30 mins prior to departure.
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To me that's even worse, that this wasn't spontaneous but rather planned. Much of what happened does not jive with what is known about the CFI/ATP involved. I guess what they say is true: ratings don't mean much.
 
Ryanb said:
Maybe it is, or maybe it isn’t? Sounds like you might be the expert here, but I’ll wait for the NTSB to release their reports.
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I'm certainly not the expert here. The experts are the people who own and/or fly these airplanes regularly, and I have yet to see a weight and balance calculation that even remotely works. Is it okay if I base my opinions on that?
 
mryan75 said:
I'm certainly not the expert here. The experts are the people who own and/or fly these airplanes regularly, and I have yet to see a weight and balance calculation that even remotely works. Is it okay if I base my opinions on that?
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Are they?

So that just goes to show that those people are not in fact the experts than.
 
teejayevans said:
Including ferry pilots that routinely overload airplanes (extra fuel tanks), I assume they actually go through extra steps to make sure it’s still within some amount and of course are acutely aware of their narrow margin of error. Obviously something that wasn’t done on this flight.
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My local field does ferry tank installs, but the runway is only 4000 feet so they never take off from there using the tanks. They fly to one of the local airports that have at least 7000 feet use use those for fueling. Those airport also have fewer obstructions and are situated at an elevation slightly above the surrounding area.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
donjohnston said:
The plane was out of annual? Where was that information taken from?
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I don't think there is any real evidence to support that. The airplane's registration is listed as "pending" or cancelled on the online FAA database. I haven't seen anything about an annual. The online database can take awhile to update. A paperwork snafu won't bring an airplane down and speculating about the status of the annual is a bit far fetched (unless there is something I have missed).

However, it is hard to dismiss the idea of the aircraft being overloaded and/or out of CG as wild speculation. The real issue would be CG. They had 8200 feet of runway and density altitude would not be an issue at night in Scottsdale this time of year.
 
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teejayevans said:
Including ferry pilots that routinely overload airplanes (extra fuel tanks), I assume they actually go through extra steps to make sure it’s still within some amount and of course are acutely aware of their narrow margin of error.
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I bring this up every time a thread like this happens, but in Russia the overgross condition is a part of the certification. As such, it takes the guesswork out of it, very convenient. The Commander (left seater) only needs to look at the POH appendix that says, basically, "if you are this much overloaded, then your crosswind limit goes down by this much, your abort distance goes up by this much, your Vs, Vref, are this much, and your new CG limits are these". At times abort is even not available, because the brakes are only large enough to stop an airplane at gross weight. Regulations for airlines prohibit overgross operations, but it absolutely is a thing that is available if the responsible authority makes a call to fly the mission. They don't have to file the paperwork with MAK or Rosaviation and get a ferry permit.

It may look ugly though, but at least there are rules. In the U.S. it's either the mentality of Big Bad Overgross That Is Too Scary To Contemplate, or a disregard for the rules and complacency, nothing in between, it seems.

 
dell30rb said:
I don't think there is any real evidence to support that. The airplane's registration is listed as "pending" or cancelled on the online FAA database. I haven't seen anything about an annual. The online database can take awhile to update. A paperwork snafu won't bring an airplane down and speculating about the status of the annual is a bit far fetched (unless there is something I have missed).
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"Far fetched" is a bit of an understatement. ;-)
 
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