Any traffic, please advise - the last word?

[midlifeflyer]

Someone pointed this out on another board and I almost peed my pants I laughed so hard.

From the latest version of AIM Section 4-1-9:

==============================
g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions

1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
==============================

Here's the link:

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0401.html#4-1-9

I know the phrase is completely useless, but it hardly deserves specific mention in the AIM. Watch out! "With you" is next!



.

 

[tonycondon]

excellent, now replying with "I advise you read the AIM" carries even more weight!

 

[4CornerFlyer]

That's certainly strong language. Cheers to the FAA on this one.

Jon

 

[SkyHog]

Yeah, I used it to point out a pet peeve of mine on the red board. I'm glad the FAA did it. Problem is: no one will read it. Sigh.

Maybe the next version of the AIM should be entitled:

Aeronautical Information Manual
Don't say please advise.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Thanks Mark

The truly amazing part is, those discussions go on far too long, without ANYBODY (from either side of the fence) reading the AIM to find this!

Maybe I should buy one...

Fly safe!

David

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Position, (BDA):

Bearing,
Distance, and
Altitude.

 

[AdamZ]

The other night at KLOM I heard a piper give a position report as a 172 was just about to fly cross wind to entern the pattern. The piper got stepped on by a jump operation at a field about 20 miles away in the middle of his position report. Cessna flying cross wind asked Piper to state his position because he obviously couldn't hear him due to being stepped on. I can't fault the Cessna for that, it seems prudent. I guess though its different that " ANY traffic in the pattern please advise" The cessna was looking for a clarification.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I can't fault the Cessna for that, it seems prudent. I guess though its different that " ANY traffic in the pattern please advise" The cessna was looking for a clarification.

Heck yeah.
And if time appears short, a lot of times it's " aircraft _____, say altitude." Most guys can glance at the altimeter, and will give a report of one number, (that you can then make sure your aircraft is not too close to) and are more likly to give that number anonymously, if they think they may be erring in some way. After that, you can try to get down to a BDA type fix.

 

[markb5900]

I have "missed" the call of an aircraft before but heard the airport name and just said "cessna near XYZ, I am on downwind for runway XX" what is your position.
Seems the prudent thing to do, if you KNOW someone else is in the area and not SURE of where they are, ASK!!!

Mark B

 

[JRitt]

How about "Any traffic please get out of my way"

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

How about "Any traffic please get out of my way"

I had a dedicated Chopper pilot tell me,
"We try to stay out of your (fixed wing aircraft in general) way".
I said,
"That's a good idea."

 

[JRitt]

What is a safe distance below a chopper to fly. We have military chunuks fly around our VOR (its in the middle of the airfield) about 1500-2000agl without talking on our unicom freq. I anounced I was taking off and then waited 20min for him to leave because I did not know if it was safe or not.

 

[ScottM]

[SARCASM]Gee how am I supposed to know what traffic is in the pattern now? When I flew into 6Y9 I did not make this call and a NORDA ultralight cut me off on final. I am sure had I said those magic words the NORDA UL would have found a way to respond to my request[/SARCASM]

 

[midlifeflyer]

The truly amazing part is, those discussions go on far too long, without ANYBODY (from either side of the fence) reading the AIM to find this!

If it was there, =someone= would have pointed it out.

I think it's new, although it's not listed in the change document. I looked for the language in my 6-month old version and it wasn't there.

 

[Michael]

I really dont see why some of you find that phrase so damn funny. Alot of times pilots dont report when they are passing thru an area. I hear the airlines out here at Havasu say that alot. And I dont blame them.

 

[mikea]

I really dont see why some of you find that phrase so damn funny. Alot of times pilots dont report when they are passing thru an area. I hear the airlines out here at Havasu say that alot. And I dont blame them.

You're not suppossed to report when passing through an area, with exceptions like the NYC Hudson corridor CTAF.

A CTAF is for airports.

And besides do you think the pilots that don't report will hear the airliner give them the order and think "Oh, in that case then...where's my PTT switch?" They're listening, huh?

 

[Michael]

You're not suppossed to report when passing through an area, with exceptions like the NYC Hudson corridor CTAF.

A CTAF for airports.

And besides do you think the pilots that don't report will hear the airliner give them the order and think "Oh, in that case then...where's my PTT switch?" They're listening, huh?

What do you mean your not suppsed to report when passing thru an airports airspace? Huh? I always report, And listen to the CTAF of every airspace i enter.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does anyone know how to make Handel's "Hallelujah" chorus from his oratorio "The Messiah" pop up?

 

[deafsound]

You're not suppossed to report when passing through an area, with exceptions like the NYC Hudson corridor CTAF.

A CTAF for airports.

And besides do you think the pilots that don't report will hear the airliner give them the order and think "Oh, in that case then...where's my PTT switch?" They're listening, huh?

Some people don't announce themselves passing thru an airport area, and I really don't think that that's a good idea, even if you're not supposed to. Every day that I do the traffic watch, we pass within about 2 miles of either 6b6 or 1b9, and we're at such a low altitudes (often around 1700'msl), that if we didn't announce, we'd be fools. Better to over-announce than to not say anything at all.....

 

[SCCutler]

Does anyone know how to make Handel's "Hallelujah" chorus from his oratorio "The Messiah" pop up?

I bet Ben could fiddle it for us!

 

[Everskyward]

I know the phrase is completely useless, but it hardly deserves specific mention in the AIM. Watch out! "With you" is next! .

I think the person who writes the AIM has been spending too much time on internet message boards, which seems to me to be the only place I see anyone discuss this... or maybe I've lived a sheltered life. I know the phrase is worthless too but this seems to be a bit, or more than a bit, of micromanagement.

 

[EdFred]

I heard a new one on Monday:

"Podunk traffic, Bugsmasher 12345 is 6 miles from XYZ, area traffic be advised, Podunk."

 

[SkyHog]

I heard a new one on Monday:

"Podunk traffic, Bugsmasher 12345 is 6 miles from XYZ, area traffic be advised, Podunk."

haha - awesome. Next time I'll use "Area Traffic, please leave."

And to those that don't understand why this is such a big deal, its because its a useless statement. If someone is not using a radio, they're not gonna respond. If someone is using a radio, their intention would be to use it, if its not, they're not required to, and that is ok (dumb, but ok).

And last, but not least, if the users of this statement would shut up for like 2 minutes, they'd hear the traffic calls of those that are willing to participate in the radio. If they don't, they can self-announce their position and intentions the way they are supposed to. Those on the radio will respond if they are going to.

Its not like someone is flying along, monitoring the frequency, hear's a position report and keeps quiet. Then someone says "Please advise" and they go "Wow, I'd better advise him now, since he asked!"

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the person who writes the AIM has been spending too much time on internet message boards, which seems to me to be the only place I see anyone discuss this... or maybe I've lived a sheltered life. I know the phrase is worthless too but this seems to be a bit, or more than a bit, of micromanagement.

Yeah, but it might be a good sign. If there's time to deal with such things as inappropriate language at a non-towrered field (are youallowed to curse on the radio>), things must be running pretty smoothly.

(I have no idea what that icon is, but there are such interesting ones here)

 

[Michael]

Its not like someone is flying along, monitoring the frequency, hear's a position report and keeps quiet. Then someone says "Please advise" and they go "Wow, I'd better advise him now, since he asked!"

Nick, what if that pilot was not a factor to the first pilot so he didnt talk? But is a factor to the airliner who is descending into an area?

 

[SkyHog]

Nick, what if that pilot was not a factor to the first pilot so he didnt talk? But is a factor to the airliner who is descending into an area?

Then a position report from the airliner should be enough to either wake up the other pilot, or not. But asking him to advise is the exact same thing, with less information.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Nick, what if that pilot was not a factor to the first pilot so he didnt talk? But is a factor to the airliner who is descending into an area?

Michael, here's the problem: If any traffic in the area advises, unless it's one person, everybody steps on each other and you've accomplished nothing.

The other problem: CTAF's can get very crowded on a nice day, and you don't want people tying up the frequency. A good pilot will make reports and if someone checks in and reports their own position, others will be able to stay out of your way, plus if anyone's close they don't have to fight with someone else for frequency time. Otherwise it's a free-for-all.

Plus, as others have mentioned - How many valuable seconds of frequency time do you waste to say the phrase itself? Do they think that if someone's in your way that they won't report their position just based on your own position due to your close proximity? No, if they've got a radio on they'll be talking anyway if there's a potential conflict.

 

[Michael]

I understand your point and all. I just see it as a polite way some pilots ask others to please acknowledge their existance if there is a conflict of airspace. I have had a near miss, and have seen another around my home field. What i have found out here, is the local pilots become too comfortable at their home field. Some stop making the proper departures, stop making calls and in the case of my near miss, dont even talk on the radio.
I could go on and on, but I wont. I just find it silly how that phase erks some people. Come on, the people asking it are only looking for help spotting traffic, its not a bad thing.

 

[SkyHog]

I could go on and on, but I wont. I just find it silly how that phase erks some people. Come on, the people asking it are only looking for help spotting traffic, its not a bad thing.

I understand, man. But here's how I see it. Can I start saying "Yo, tell me where da planes at!" when approaching a non-towered field? Not only does it sound super-unprofessional, it doesn't accomplish anything more than "Cherokee 8816J, 10 East, inbound for right traffic," and in fact, it does much less. And when you're on multicom in areas in the places in the country where you and I are not from, you'll see that multicom gets busy as hell (I've heard it once in person, and had it described many times).

So, silly or not, it just doesn't do anything more than a position and intention report would.

And to spread the fun around - its right up there with adding the zero to a runway number

 

[gibbons]

And to spread the fun around - its right up there with adding the zero to a runway number

I think adding the zero can be pretty important. Don't you want to know that I'm on downwind for runway three-zero and not runway three?

 

[Everskyward]

(I have no idea what that icon is, but there are such interesting ones here)

When you hear little squeals from the back after hitting turbulence that's what the pax are doing.

 

[rpadula]

Michael, here's the problem: If any traffic in the area advises, unless it's one person, everybody steps on each other and you've accomplished nothing.

Warning: Nerd talk altert! Then we'll just have to train pilots to use CSMA/CD when responding to this -- each one waits a random amount of time before transmitting their response.

The other problem: CTAF's can get very crowded on a nice day, and you don't want people tying up the frequency.

I'm not entirely sure that scenario's the problem. If an "any traffic advise"-type pilot tunes into such a busy frequency, he won't have any time to make the any traffic please advise call.

Besides laziness, I could also see people making this call into a quiet frequency out of concern for safety. Kind of a "gee it's quiet what am I missing?" train of thought. And if it's so quiet, then "valuable frequency" isn't really so wasted.

A good pilot will make reports and if someone checks in and reports their own position, others will be able to stay out of your way, plus if anyone's close they don't have to fight with someone else for frequency time. Otherwise it's a free-for-all.

Plus, as others have mentioned - How many valuable seconds of frequency time do you waste to say the phrase itself? Do they think that if someone's in your way that they won't report their position just based on your own position due to your close proximity? No, if they've got a radio on they'll be talking anyway if there's a potential conflict.

All agreed here. We done beating the horse now?


-Rich

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not entirely sure that scenario's the problem. If an "any traffic advise"-type pilot tunes into such a busy frequency, he won't have any time to make the any traffic please advise call.

That doesn't stop them from waiting until they can get in and do it anyway, further tying up the freq. I've heard four airplanes make position calls bing-bing-bing-bing, and as soon as the last call is made, another plane says "BigJet 567 is five miles south of Airport, landing on Runway 27, any traffic advise." Do we then have to have all four other planes make the same calls again on a CTAF shared with four other airports in radio range? The point is clear -- this call is nothing but comm-jamming, and shows only that the pilot is too lazy to listen before talking.

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, about the only time I would consider making such a call is similar to the following. Inbound to my local airport 1C5 on the GPS-B, which sets you up nicely for 36. We track almost directly over two airports on the way in, so I like to announce and listen on those CTAFs. The second is just about at the FAF, so 5NM out. If I wait the aforementioned 2 minutes for anyone else to call in, I'm only 2NM out, and don't know if someone is doing a 2NM base to final. What I try to do is listen to both airports using my two radios so I know the situation, but I'm not always able to do that successfully. But as soon as I am past the airport under the FAF, I switch over to my destination airport, announce my position and intentions, which may be straight in to 36, and, if I've been unable to monitor until that point, may ask for any traffic advisories, just in case I missed something.
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0608/06535RB.PDF

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, about the only time I would consider making such a call is similar to the following. Inbound to my local airport 1C5 on the GPS-B, which sets you up nicely for 36. We track almost directly over two airports on the way in, so I like to announce and listen on those CTAFs. The second is just about at the FAF

Since you're at about 1700 AGL, more than 500 above the TPA, as you go over those two airports, there's really not much point to make those announcements, and even less point in asking "any traffic please advise." If you're in IMC, ATC will take care of you, and if you're in VMC, you should be focusing outside and probably cancelling and flying visually before you get to that point rather than focusing inside the airplane. Better, I think, to stay on the CTAF of the airport at which you are landing once ATC clears you to advisory freq.

 

[mikea]

Its not like someone is flying along, monitoring the frequency, hear's a position report and keeps quiet. Then someone says "Please advise" and they go "Wow, I'd better advise him now, since he asked!"

I heard that somewhere. That's what I meant above.

Right arm.

It's pointless and ties up an already crowded frequency. It is a threat to safety. You can't give your position - "advise," which you might have been doing before dis goof turned on his radio and immediately transmitted - while this bozo is saying this pointless phrase before he sets his radio back to ATC and doesn't listen for any replies anyway.

I don't think it's in the AIM that an airliner should use this phrase from a high altitude tying up the frequency at all airports within 500 miles to clear out the area. The captain or FO can listen, too.

I gotta learn to type soon.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

While we focus on the one sentence in the updated AIM (with which I wholeheartedly agree), we may overlook an essential passage on radio technique:

4-2-2. Radio Technique

a. Listen before you transmit. Many times you can get the information you want through ATIS or by monitoring the frequency. Except for a few situations where some frequency overlap occurs, if you hear someone else talking, the keying of your transmitter will be futile and you will probably jam their receivers causing them to repeat their call. If you have just changed frequencies, pause, listen, and make sure the frequency is clear.


As with Ron's example above, those who barge onto a crowded freqency with the now-banned phrase have violated this prime directive of communication. Start monitoring the frequency a few minutes out and listen up for the others' position reports instead of demanding that they make reports for your convenience.



Jon
​

 

[Henning]

The other night at KLOM I heard a piper give a position report as a 172 was just about to fly cross wind to entern the pattern. The piper got stepped on by a jump operation at a field about 20 miles away in the middle of his position report. Cessna flying cross wind asked Piper to state his position because he obviously couldn't hear him due to being stepped on. I can't fault the Cessna for that, it seems prudent. I guess though its different that " ANY traffic in the pattern please advise" The cessna was looking for a clarification.

In that case the proper radio call would be "Piper at KLOM, Blocked, Say Again for 172 1000' entering Right crosswind 27 KLOM " or something very similar. Minimally the call should have been "Piper KLOM Say Again". Radio proceedure is part of your airmanship. In VMC cruise flight it can be a bit more layed back and depending on the topic and where in the country you are can be a bit more coloquial and less rigid allowing for personalities to come through. However, in the terminal environment, you need more exacting and concise proceedure.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm not entirely sure that scenario's the problem. If an "any traffic advise"-type pilot tunes into such a busy frequency, he won't have any time to make the any traffic please advise call.

An airliner or corporate jockey, the folks who are most guilty of this in per-capita use terms, is quite used to jumping in on a busy frequency, and is still going to make the calls, resulting in everyone stepping on each other.

All agreed here. We done beating the horse now?

Nope!

OK, all better now.

 

[mikea]

Nope!

OK, all better now.

Nick put his finger on the misunderstanding. It's a difference in environments. Dem guys flying out in the desert can't imagine what the problem is. They don't hear the cacophony on the CTAF as the plane breaks 500 feet AGL.