Any traffic, please advise - the last word?

[Michael]

I guess your right, I just have never been to one of those CTAF airports where it takes so long to announce stuff. who can give me an example of such an airspace where its that important to keep talk at a minimum so that that extra 2 seconds of speach would mean something?

 

[tonycondon]

Well the airport density in Iowa is about one every 20 miles or so, most (>90%) of the active ones are using 122.8 as their CTAF, so at pattern altitude you are listening to traffic from several different airports, remember, no terrain to block transmissions. You dont want to step on the guy at next town over, so you wait. Also at my 141 school, we would often get 3-4 airplanes in the pattern at the same time, adding a transient to the mix would get interesting.

 

[Michael]

I am not one of those pilots who will use this phase, however, i am also, not one who will laugh uncontrollably if i hear one say it. To me, It means the pilots asking, are not dumb idiots as some of you might think, they have been listening, and they know who has reported in the area, They are simply asking, again, for a final...who is in my way report.
Example, If i hear traffic north and west reporting, but i am to the south east, I report 5 miles SE at 2000. If i was to say anyone in MY area advise, i am asking for any other traffic (that is revelevant to me) that has not reported to speak up. The reasoning here is, that traffic that is not in immediate danger of colliding with you, or "no Factor" may not always talk to let the rest of us know where he is. so just because he is not a danger to you, doesnt mean he isnt a danger to that commercial airliner SE of the airport.
am i being dumb here or do i just not get it?

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's not "dumb." Michael. But as Tony points out, there are a lot of areas where there are many non-towered airports that use the same CTAF. 122.8 is used at a lot of places. When line of sight is not a factor, you can hear transmissions from airports from miles away. There are times on a beautiful flying day when you can barely make the proper self-reporting statements because the frequency is so busy.

For pilots who have experienced it, it can be annoying (and may be a safety concern) to be flying into an airport you know is busy and not be able to (a) hear others self-reports and learn exactly what you think "any traffic, please advise" is supposed to accomplish and (b) make your own reports because of the cacophony from a bunch of other airports. It can be bad enough when all of the communications are standard, short and to the point.

They are simply asking, again, for a final...who is in my way report.

is just asking to =increase= the difficulty of proper communication.

 

[EdFred]

Michael - come out here to MI. I get traffic calls from 4 states on the CTAF frequencies around here when it's a nice day out. On 122.8 and 122.9 you hear squealing on the radio almost non stop with people stepping on each other from almost the entire lower peninsula, not to mention WI, IL, and IN as well. There are times when I can only make a single pattern call at the fields with 122.8 and 122.9. I try to make that the "base to final" call, and keep my head outside, because there is so much congestion on the frequencies.

 

[Anthony]

There are times when I can only make a single pattern call at the fields with 122.8 and 122.9.

We need more frequencies. Its not too bad out here, but when I lived in the Philly area, there was a lot of congestion. 122.8 and 122.9 isn't enough.

For the record, the phrase annoys me too. Its like saying "anyone in the room that isn't here, please let me know".

 

[poadeleted20]

who can give me an example of such an airspace where its that important to keep talk at a minimum so that that extra 2 seconds of speach would mean something?

I can -- anywhere from Manchester NH to Richmond VA. We have as many as five different airports within radio line-of-sight at pattern altitude sharing a single CTAF. Sometimes (especially on good VMC weekends) all you can hear is the squealing of simultaneous transmissions.

 

[Areeda]

I can -- anywhere from Manchester NH to Richmond VA. We have as many as five different airports within radio line-of-sight at pattern altitude sharing a single CTAF. Sometimes (especially on good VMC weekends) all you can hear is the squealing of simultaneous transmissions.

No need plugging in the XM radio in the area from Santa Barbara to Palm Springs to San Diego either. The muting time-out is longer than the dead air time. Shorter transmissions are appreciated.

Joe

 

[Henning]

What is a safe distance below a chopper to fly.

2 mm, just don't tag em. They don't knock you out of the sky or suck you into them. It's just a bit of a bump in the air as you cross under.

 

[midlifeflyer]

More fuel to the fire. I'm on the FAA's Designee email list that advises DPEs of what's new and exciting. I received this today:

==============================
The inane practice of using the phrase “any traffic please advise” has become so wide spread that the FAA has finally included a “do not do this” in the latest version of the AIM. You will find the following quote at paragraph 4-1-9 G 1 in the latest version of the AIM:

Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

If you do not have a current copy of the AIM, you can reference one online at:

http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/

Bob Linenweber, ASI
314-890-4864


OPS DESIGNEE NOTIFICATION SYSTEM
==============================

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

We need more frequencies. Its not too bad out here, but when I lived in the Philly area, there was a lot of congestion. 122.8 and 122.9 isn't enough.

For the record, the phrase annoys me too. Its like saying "anyone in the room that isn't here, please let me know".

Or, "I'm too dumb/self-important to give everyone else MY position but I am asking THEIR for their position."

PWT, just west of BFI can get that way because it's the closest and most popular place for all of Seattle's flight students to do quick T&Gs and/or ILS/NDB approaches at a non-towered airport plus, the resident and transient/restaurant traffic. Then sometimes it's nearly vacant.

 

[Henning]

I understand your point and all. I just see it as a polite way some pilots ask others to please acknowledge their existance if there is a conflict of airspace. I have had a near miss, and have seen another around my home field. What i have found out here, is the local pilots become too comfortable at their home field. Some stop making the proper departures, stop making calls and in the case of my near miss, dont even talk on the radio.
I could go on and on, but I wont. I just find it silly how that phase erks some people. Come on, the people asking it are only looking for help spotting traffic, its not a bad thing.

I have had more than one near miss as well because I was looking for the traffic in the wrong place. All to many people can't judge 3 miles from 10 to call it. In cases like that, I would be better off if they had not called at all because my unmodified search scan would have picked them up.

 

[CowboyPilot]

I'm not entirely sure that scenario's the problem. If an "any traffic advise"-type pilot tunes into such a busy frequency, he won't have any time to make the any traffic please advise call.

-Rich

We got a lot of party lines out here in the DFW area with little to no geography to break them up. On a Saturday, the CTAFs get really busy.

For instance, 123.0 is the CTAF for three fields within a forty nm radius with two of the fields both having runways 17/35--no geography to break up line of sight signals. Result is you hear "Turning downwind" and "turning final" for all three fields simultaneously. About every pilot that flies into those three airports knows that you have to listen to determine which airport the pilot is referencing, as in tagging the end of your xmission with the name of the field.

"Any traffic in the pattern/area, please advise" heard on a party line for two or more airports can F things up BECAUSE the majority of drivers I hear using that phrase rarely--if ever--tag the name of the field at the end of their transmission.

If they'd pull their head out of the butt and look as well as listen and exercise "see and avoid" to its highest degree, there'd be no need for the idiotic phrase.

-JD

 

[Henning]

We got a lot of party lines out here in the DFW area with little to no geography to break them up. On a Saturday, the CTAFs get really busy.

For instance, 123.0 is the CTAF for three fields within a forty nm radius with two of the fields both having runways 17/35--no geography to break up line of sight signals. Result is you hear "Turning downwind" and "turning final" for all three fields simultaneously. -JD

I've always wondered why aviation radios don't have a low power setting for terminal and CTAF frquencies. It would cure many of these problems if when you were on CTAF you transmit at 1 watt rather than 25. Marine radios are all set up with low power and switch down automatically when you use 9 or 13 which are your main bridge to bridge channels. It works really well until you get to Fourchon, then it starts sounding like a bad episode of Jerry Springer.

 

[mikea]

I've always wondered why aviation radios don't have a low power setting for terminal and CTAF frquencies.

Because some goof would leave the radio low power mode, have a mid-air or runway collision at a towered or uncontrolled airport that couldn't hear him, and have his heirs sue the radio manufacturer and the FAA. That would be followed by an AD to have low power mode permanently disabled.

 

[Ghery]

Or, "I'm too dumb/self-important to give everyone else MY position but I am asking THEIR for their position."

PWT, just west of BFI can get that way because it's the closest and most popular place for all of Seattle's flight students to do quick T&Gs and/or ILS/NDB approaches at a non-towered airport plus, the resident and transient/restaurant traffic. Then sometimes it's nearly vacant.

Fortunately, PWT shares its CTAF with maybe one other airport in western Washington. 123.05 is kind of an oddball CTAF. Now if we could just convince one old curmudgeon I ran into there who thinks a straight in approach to 01 is illegal...

Now, 122.8 on a nice weekend day. Oh boy, what a zoo.

 

[poadeleted20]

The inane practice of using the phrase “any traffic please advise”

What a perfect word for that -- "inane," defined as "silly and pointless, as in : Those two students wasted our class time by asking inane questions." (www.business-words.com/dictionary/I.html)

 

[Pjsmith]

I think the person who writes the AIM has been spending too much time on internet message boards, which seems to me to be the only place I see anyone discuss this... or maybe I've lived a sheltered life. I know the phrase is worthless too but this seems to be a bit, or more than a bit, of micromanagement.

Not true. Stopped by both local FBOs in the last couple of days, and both have this new section prominently posted, highlighted, etc. Maybe we're just oversensitive midwesterners, but everyone I've talked to about this practice (well, everyone not flying a cessna emblazoned with the name of a certain flight school in Schaumburg) agrees that it was irritating and useless.

 

[Everskyward]

Not true. Stopped by both local FBOs in the last couple of days, and both have this new section prominently posted, highlighted, etc.

To clarify, I was talking about the decades before this was published in the AIM. But I haven't heard anyone mention it recently either. I'll keep and ear out and notice when I hear some discussion in real life. It will be an interesting experiment...

 

[Anthony]

To clarify, I was talking about the decades before this was published in the AIM. But I haven't heard anyone mention it recently either. I'll keep and ear out and notice when I hear some discussion in real life. It will be an interesting experiment...

I heard the phrase in question, yet again, while flying over to Platte Valley for gas last week. I just had to laugh. I wanted to reply, "OK, I'm advising".

 

[AirBaker]

I always get a kick out of this discussion. You get people who are upset by this phrase, those who defend its use, and those who are upset at the CTAF radio nazi's.

 

[Len Lanetti]

AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

OK – flak jacket on! So the AIM now precludes using the phrase "Any traffic in the area…". Does this change generate an issue?

Personally, I've been ambivalent to the use of the phrase. I've never had a need to use the phrase myself but I can conjure up one or two scenarios where this phrase or a similar one might come in handy.

Off the top of my head the one scenario that comes to mind is as follows:

• The subject airport is in the northeastern US. It has been typically hot summer day and it is now late afternoon. The setting sun shines through a very hazy sky. The weather at the uncontrolled field is marginal VFR, the light wind is favoring a westerly runway, the ATIS is generous with the visibility report and there are clouds just above the pattern altitude.
• There is an inbound flight to the airport on an IFR flight plan. The flight has been longer than expected due to the requirement to dodge pop up cells along the route of flight.
• The PIC of the flight is not familiar with the area as this is the first trip to this airport. The aircraft is a “fast moving” aircraft. Fast moving is a relative term but for this example let’s say the aircraft is being flown single pilot.
• The workload for the single pilot is starting to mount up as the controller vectors the aircraft close in to the FAF for the approach. The pilot got the ATIS and set the 2nd com to monitor the UNICOM frequency before starting down but work load precluded the pilot from knowing anything more then it sounded like there were some folks in the pattern at the destination (or perhaps they were at nearby fields using the same frequency).

You can probably see where I’m going with this example. My general thought is that the single pilot in this example is probably going to fly the approach (perhaps canceling IFR first with the thought that he is being helpful to a busy controller). In either case the PIC is probably flying the approach with thoughts of making a “straight in” so as not to have break off and fly the pattern over unfamiliar territory with marginal visibility and ceiling.

In this example why is it that the folks in the pattern can’t shoot off a quick position report so as to be a bit helpful to a fellow pilot.

On a similar note, for years I’ve heard calls to UNICOM frequencies for the winds or “active” runway (I know the precise term is preferred runway but lets not go there today). Often the response is along the lines of “The winds are 260 at 10, aircraft have been using 28, a Cessna is in the pattern and a helicopter about to take off”. Isn’t that helpful to the inbound pilot?

I'm sure many of us have "extended" their downwind to help the flow of traffic in and around the pattern. Why isn't the call for a position report just another form of assistance.

Wouldn’t have been just as easy for the writers of the AIM to say “In the case of an aircraft calling for position reports of aircraft in the pattern the following response is suggested…”.

Respectfully submitted,

Len

 

[EdFred]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

It's called having CTAF dialed in about 20 miles out, and turned down. If the pilot is getting overloaded by a simple thing such as getting vectors I think he better not be flying in that sort of situation.

I refuse to answer the "any traffic" with anything useful. I usually just say, "I advise you read the AIM'

Clogging the frequency? Probably. Better option than what I *really* want to say.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Ed,

It's called having CTAF dialed in about 20 miles out, and turned down. If the pilot is getting overloaded by a simple thing such as getting vectors I think he better not be flying in that sort of situation.

But you do have to admit that it is possible for any pilot to get into a position where a little help might be appreciated. Perhaps the example I provided is not that situation or perhaps the PIC found himself where he'd rather not be.

I refuse to answer the "any traffic" with anything useful. I usually just say, "I advise you read the AIM'

The snappy come back from the other pilot might be that he will once he gets his craft on the ground but is the point to make snappy remarks or be fellow aviators in the sky.

Len

 

[gprellwitz]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Duplicate thread. See http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9186.

Your example seems similar to an example that I gave, but I was making calls to two airports I overfly on approach. I think it was Ron who replied that I was 500' above pattern altitude for those airports so shouldn't bother talking to them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

In this example why is it that the folks in the pattern can’t shoot off a quick position report so as to be a bit helpful to a fellow pilot.

Len, the folks in the pattern CAN shoot off a position report. Here's the problem:

"BusyField Traffic, FastPlane 123 is on the GPS to 28, any traffic in the area please advise."
*radio squeals as other planes step on each other*

The problems with the above:
1) FastPlane pilot didn't tag "BusyField" onto the end of his call, so folks at other fields in the area with the same CTAF might try to "helpfully" report their position.
2) FastPlane didn't say exactly where on the approach he is, so nobody knows who's closest or who's a factor, so they're all gonna report position, stepping on each other. FastPlane should make a VFR-friendly position report.

Now, how's this?

"BusyField Traffic, FastPlane123, is approaching <name of FAF> for a five-mile straight-in, runway 28, BusyField."
"BusyField Traffic, Bugsmasher 456 turning final, runway 28, touch and go, BusyField."
"BusyField Traffic, Flivver 789 on downwind runway 28, will extend downwind and follow the FastPlane, BusyField."

Just a position report by the incoming FastPlane should prompt a response from whoever's going to be the nearest plane to being a factor, and the other planes should already know who that is because they've been on freq. FastPlane not only gets a useful position report, but traffic that might be a factor later can change plans and cooperate to get FastPlane in. All of them tag the end of their transmission with the field name to avoid confusion with other fields on that CTAF, people don't get stepped on, and there is an orderly flow of traffic. In an ideal world, of course.

The big problem with "any traffic..." is that it's redundant. After FastPlane gives a position report, do you think the "any traffic" phrase makes other planes more likely to reply with their position?

I think the real "Issue" may be the air carriers who may have "any traffic" in their ops manual. In that case, which takes precedence, the manual or the AIM?

 

[EdFred]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

which takes precedence, the manual or the AIM?

The collar mentioned on the Red Board that was in The Running Man.

 

[EdFred]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

But you do have to admit that it is possible for any pilot to get into a position where a little help might be appreciated. Perhaps the example I provided is not that situation or perhaps the PIC found himself where he'd rather not be.

The deal with any traffic is this, and about as simple as it gets:

Any pattern traffic making the radio calls, are going to make them whether someone asks "any traffic" or not.

Those that aren't making the radio calls, aren't going to answer if someone asks "any traffic" anyway.

So, the whole point of asking any traffic is like asking someone if they are asleep. "Hey, Len, you asleep?" I may as well just adrress you, and say what I am going to say, with the expectation that you may not answer.

 

[mikea]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

[*]The workload for the single pilot is starting to mount up as the controller vectors the aircraft close in to the FAF for the approach. The pilot got the ATIS and set the 2nd com to monitor the UNICOM frequency before starting down but work load precluded the pilot from knowing anything more then it sounded like there were some folks in the pattern at the destination (or perhaps they were at nearby fields using the same frequency).

Since "traffic in the pattern" has no obligation whatsoever to respond and some, like me, will go with our CFI's take on it and shut the h* up unless we have a position to report, the call will give your overworked pilot no help but it will fill up the overcrowded CTAF frequency for a few seconds for no reason.

 

[ScottM]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

The snappy come back from the other pilot might be that he will once he gets his craft on the ground but is the point to make snappy remarks or be fellow aviators in the sky.

The point is to be professional and not use "inane" radio calls that do nothing but clog up the frequency, show ones lack of ability to read the AIM, and add nothing to safety whatsoever.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

The big problem with "any traffic..." is that it's redundant. After FastPlane gives a position report, do you think the "any traffic" phrase makes other planes more likely to reply with their position?

Perhaps the "Any traffic..." call started to gain popularity because folks in the pattern were not responding with position reports when another plane was getting close to the field. It could be that the use of the call grew out of necessity (real or perceived).

There must be examples of accepted standard phrases in use today that came about because of gradual use due to need. For example, the inclusion of "...with bravo..." to indicate that you have the most recent ATIS report. Was that added to the AIM concurrently with invention of the ATIS machine or did it come about gradually through use.

Len

 

[Everskyward]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Duplicate thread. See http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9186.

Your example seems similar to an example that I gave, but I was making calls to two airports I overfly on approach. I think it was Ron who replied that I was 500' above pattern altitude for those airports so shouldn't bother talking to them.

I didn't read the whole thread over again but you should be aware that the pattern for large and turbine airplanes is generally 500 feet above the normal one.

 

[ScottM]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Perhaps the "Any traffic..." call started to gain popularity because folks in the pattern were not responding with position reports when another plane was getting close to the field.

Len

Perhaps... But please expound on how using this phrase was able to wrestle that phrase out of those very same pilots mouths?

I don't think it did at all, those pilots that were not announcing are still not announcing.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Perhaps... But please expound on how using this phrase was able to wrestle that phrase out of those very same pilots mouths?

I don't think it did at all, those pilots that were not announcing are still not announcing.

My thought is that what if instead of prohibiting the use of the phrase the change to the AIM embraced the phrase or something similar and specified the appropriate responses. Wouldn't that provide another tool for all of us to use instead of limiting us?

Len

 

[gprellwitz]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

I didn't read the whole thread over again but you should be aware that the pattern for large and turbine airplanes is generally 500 feet above the normal one.

And that's also not an uncommon altitude for someone to fly over on their way to enter on the 45*. My instructor is the one who started getting me to make those radio calls. Ron is the one who pointed out the 500' as a reason to not make them. I'm just a poor instrument student who doesn't know who to listen to! (Of course, RLevy has a lot more experience than my instructor)

 

[ScottM]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

And that's also not an uncommon altitude for someone to fly over on their way to enter on the 45*. My instructor is the one who started getting me to make those radio calls. Ron is the one who pointed out the 500' as a reason to not make them. I'm just a poor instrument student who doesn't know who to listen to! (Of course, RLevy has a lot more experience than my instructor)

Grant as a soon to be Inst pilot, my $.02 on radio calls into VFR fields. Normally if the field is IFR it is not that big a deal to make radio calls other than just the normal ones, and ATC is usually pretty good telling you if they see anyone in the pattern prior to the freq change. But I have been in IMC and on a approach that will dump me out to VMC conditions.

For instance I was on the GPS13 approach into KSMD (Fort Wayne) I was solid IMC but the field was VMC with a Young Eagles event. When I got handed off to CTAF (and I had been monitoring) I started giving good postion reports. Which helped all of us merge together in the pattern and make smooth safe transistions.

It was both the VFR and the IFR traffic working together. There is no way me coming on freq. and spouting of the 'any traffic' thing would have helped at all. If the other 4 planes answered there would have been nothing but a heterodying squeal and nobody would know who heard what.

Inside of 3 miles on final I am giving a 1mile position report on the CTAF and keeping my head on a swivel looking for that lone NORDO guy about to turn in front of me.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

I'm just a poor instrument student who doesn't know who to listen to!

I would say you should listen to your own common sense, but sometimes that's harder than it seems. Also for some perspective, I'll tell you that as someone who flies a fast airplane that gracefully entering a pattern full of slower airplanes, some of which are not talking, is one of the more difficult and uncomfortable things to do. For comparison, think of flying your C-172/Cherokee in a pattern full of ultralights.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I heard the phrase in question, yet again, while flying over to Platte Valley for gas last week. I just had to laugh. I wanted to reply, "OK, I'm advising".

How was the fuel price there?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Perhaps the "Any traffic..." call started to gain popularity because folks in the pattern were not responding with position reports when another plane was getting close to the field. It could be that the use of the call grew out of necessity (real or perceived).

Or because someone at some airline thought it sounded like a good idea and made their pilots do it, and then all the CFI's wanted to sound like the jet jocks so they started doing it, and teaching it, and...

I heard a CFI teaching "With You" to a student one day, right after we'd had that discussion on the old AOPA board. I asked why one should use that phrase and said it seemed redundant. I might have mentioned the discussion, I can't remember. He thought about it for a minute and agreed that it was pretty useless. It was just a copycat habit he'd picked up and since so many people were using it, it just seemed right. Never heard him teach it again.

This is just how bad technique, OWT's, etc. are passed around. It sounds like it should be right, so it must be, right?

 

[Anthony]

How was the fuel price there?

$3.60/gal for 100LL. Cheapeast in the area. Front Range was $3.91 I think.